Catholics vs Christians

In 1985 in Connecticut I used to attend a Bible church. Unlike most protestants - they actually had a lot of good things to say about the Catholic Church. They were the ones who taught that the Catholics had the best translation, and we all studied from the Catholic translation.

I'm sorry about your theory about the Jews, Rome and the Torah. At that time you pretended to be Christian or you was put to death. Apocrypha you speak of in the Catholic bible used to also be in the protestant king james version until 1827. The original bible texts are gone. The oldest we have is the Latin text owned by the Catholic church used by both Catholic and Protestants. However - the new sea scrolls might reveal something new (still being worked on).

You are absolutely right about baptism. It is a Jewish practice of cleansing. Whenever you repented you would also be baptized, a symbolism of your sins being washed away.

Baptism of the Spirit - That should be a new thread. You make a new thread and I'll discuss it with you. I must warn you though - I do not believe in the fundamentalist idea of salvation. But I would be happy discuss the subject of baptism of the spirit with you. I have some experience, I'm not an expert, and I'm even a little curious about what you might be able to share with me.

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

I have to admit ignorance (sorry about your theory about the Jews, Rome and the Torah), the only college I ever attended was the local junior and even at that I didn't recieve a 2 yr. degree, never got past the English requirements.
So I acquired my understanding from interaction with various churches by meeting and studing with them.
Sorry about my theory, actually it is more of consideration that I had formed given the circumstances of that era (B.C.-A.D.) The Apocrypha is Old Testament i.e. the Jewish Tradition which I wasn't aware that they had lost their writings? Which is why the the (new) Dead Sea Scrolls might reveal some divergence from those passed down through the Jewish Tradition (still being worked on).
Thank you I wasn't sure about the time frame (the protestant king james version until 1827) in reguard to the New Testament. Misinformed I thought the DSS wre older than Chirstianity and therefore had little bearing on it. My understanding is the New Testament was written in Koine (sp) Greek while the Old Testament being in several languages? As to baptism, I believe that Paul came across some converts of John (the Baptist) who had gone out prior to Jesus coming about. Giving them the Good News and baptize them and they recieved the Spirit. A counter-statement is the account of those from Joppa, who came to Peter but only in that they recieved the Spirit without the water baptism as they did consent to be baptized (with water). But I can understand your reluctance to use it.

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

"We are not perfect. I was not born to perfection but seek to live a spiritual life."

I like that.

We're about in the same boat - I never finished high school.

But there is a verse in the Bible about God making the wise man foolish and a foolish man wise.

Seeing this is not about baptism - I'll start a new thread for you, Look for it - Roger

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

I think that the divergence between Christian denominations is a pretty sad thing. As long as Christians hold faith in the main belief that Christ died for our sins and live a life repenting of their sins we might all be able to come to an agreement. The only thing we must do is follow the commands of our Lord out of our love for Him.

If we weren't so caught up in doctrinal issues, we could come together, but I don't see that happening very soon. While there are doctrinal beliefs we scuffle about that have no effect on biblical salvation at all, I do believe that there are certain doctrines held by denominations that do.

I am not a Catholic, but I was raised as one. I went to a Catholic grade school, church with my mom, and all the works. I guess you would consider me a Protestant, but I go to a Non-denominational church. I just can't believe the doctrines of the Catholic church after reading the New Testament.

The Catholic and Protestant Bibles are pretty much the same though the Catholic Bible has more books known as the Apocrypha. Protestants do not believe them to be God-inspired for various reasons I will not go into now. They are not considered canonical even by those faithfull to the Jewish religion.

What I have found out from mainstream Protestant denominations and Roman Catholic traditions is the difference of beliefs in how salvation is attained.

Simply put, Protestants believe they are saved by "faith alone", and Roman Catholics believe they are saved by "faith plus works."

I'll quote some scripture and you can make your own decision on who is right. It comes from Romans 10:15...

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Tell me, does this not state plainly that all that is needed is faith alone?

Also, just to make a comment, the earliest copy of the Bible we have is not in Latin. It is in Greek, and it is dated to about 130 A.D. It is a fragment (the John Rylands Manuscript) that only contains a few verses from the book of John, but this evidence secures the fact that the New Testament was not written a long time after the death of Christ. It is a copy that was written within one generation of it's autograph. Booyah!

Another thing I would like to state is that the books of the Bible were never decided canonical by the Catholic church. If you search through History, you will find that the Books of the Bible were already standardised pretty much since the beginnings of the early church. I can make references to this if needed. The books the Bible contains today, were considered pretty much authoritative from the Beginning.

"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

Strongclad - I think you are right, we will never agree, but it isn't sad, what is sad is that we think we have to all agree. Its a round world. You cannot see every side of it. But if you can accept those who see other sides of this world then you can perceive more of it.

Yes the bible was canonized before the Catholic Church, but the Catholic church holds or held the original (oldest). Its not Latin, they took the greek version and translated it into Latin. Latin was considered a more perfect language.

I joined the Catholic church in my early twenties. Luckily I had a priest teach me who knew the bible very well. Every question I had he was able to answer in the bible. Even the teaching of purgatory, he was able to show that to me in the Bible.

Concerning that scripture in Romans. I believe you can be saved by faith, but faith alone will not save you, however it is God who saves. I don't know how God does that, and I'm not sure what Jesus has to do with it. I wrote this earlier on and it even surprised me:

"I always believed that there were two gods. One is the law, a computer program script or DNA code. Something that told everything what to do automatically and set everything in motion. This god does not think for itself, but just follows a programed will. Then there is the real God. The one who created even god of law. This could explain why Jesus had to die on the cross for our sins to appease the god of law for our sake. (I'm not real sure I can believe that - just maybe)."

Concerning what I said about Paul earlier - I could be wrong - I have much more to study - Like Edgar Cayce. But I do believe there are a lot of false things in the bible. Many times I have sat down and tried to figure out what is true and what is false. I have to admit, this task is far above me. I cannot know for sure.

Peace

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

okcitykid--"I think you are right, we will never agree, but it isn't sad, what is sad is that we think we have to all agree. Its a round world. You cannot see every side of it. But if you can accept those who see other sides of this world then you can perceive more of it."

What I meant was that it is sad that Christians can't agree. If Christians can't agree on the same doctrines and traditions, than those under the title "Christian" can not all be right. It is sad that over the past 2,000 years since Christ, Christians have been interpreting the Bible the way they personally feel inclined to.

We all know that the world works in a logical way. A way that we can percieve and understand. There are things in this world that work according to the laws of nature and these are truths that we cannot deny. This is the way God designed our world. It is sad that we cannot all agree on this.

To say, "if you can accept those who see other sides of this world then you can perceive more of it," is to trust everything that everyone says as true about their perceptions. And this cannot logically be done. This "acceptance" you talk about is an extreme form of "toleration." If you hold a view that murder is wrong, and someone else holds a view that murder is okay, are you going to accept, or should I say tolerate this other person's view?

When it comes to religious views, if someone believes in reincarnation, but you believe that we only get one chance at life, is there any possible way that both can be true?

If a tree falls in a forest it is still a fact of history even though someone may have not been there to see it fall. We may be able to see remains of a dead fallen tree and gather clues as to what happened. This is the same with God. If God has personally come into the world and has given guidelines, instructions and commands, this therefore becomes a fact of history just like the fallen tree. Would you deny that?

To say that all forms of faith should be tolerated is wrong and contradicting. Both YHWH and the gods of Hinduism cannot both make a claim to deity, since both have different beliefs in their gods. The Christian God claims that there are no others but Him. Hindus claim that there are millions of gods. Can both claims be believed in by different people? Sure. But based on the claims, can both be true? No.

Though you can believe what you wish, All claims are not equally and objectively true. Not all truth claims are valid.

The words "I BELIEVE" in the statement "I believe that God is one" does not state factually that "God is one". It only states a personal belief that is "apart" from the truth of the fact. Only when God Himself can claim to us that He is one, only then will we perceive the fact.

okcitykid--"Yes the bible was canonized before the Catholic Church, but the Catholic church holds or held the original (oldest)."

The Catholic Church does not hold the "original" (autograph). No one does. All the "autographs" of every book of the Bible are nonexisting. No one has found any of them yet, if it is possible that they are to be found at all.

The Catholic Church does not hold the "oldest" copy of the Bible. The Codex Vaticanus is located in the Vatican Library and contains nearly all of the Bible. This manuscript dates to A.D. 325-350. This is what they hold.

There are manuscripts dating earlier than this one. As I already mentioned earlier, The John Rylands's MS (A.D. 130) is located in the John Rylands Library of Manchester England, and also, there is the Bodmer Papyrus II (A.D. 150-200) which contains most of John's Gospel and is located at the Bodmer Library of World Literature; the Chester Beatty Papyri (A.D. 200) contains major portions of the New Testament and is located in C. Beatty Museum in Dublin; Codex Sinaiticus (A.D. 350) is located in the British Museum and contains almost all of the New Testament and over half of the Old Testament.

These examples are only a small portion of the manuscript evidence available for the Bible. Did you know that we contain about 24,970+ manuscripts dating from the early second century to now? Some containing just verses and chapters, some contain entire books, and some contain the whole Bible. I can give you the many languages and the amount of manuscript evidence that we have for each. Whether or not Latin is a more perfect language or not does not matter. The original texts of the Bible were translated into whatever language needed to spread the "Good News" so everyone had a chance to understand.

okcitykid--"Concerning that scripture in Romans. I believe you can be saved by faith, but faith alone will not save you, however it is God who saves."

God saves according to His will. The Bible states clearly throughout the whole Old (through prophecy) and New Testament (fulfillment of that prophecy) that it was God's will to send His only Son, as a sacrifice, for sinners, that we may share paradise with Him and not go to Hell. Those who do not believe that Jesus was God's Son, that all sin (breaking God's laws and commands) is evil, and do not believe that Jesus died and was resurrected on the third day for our sins do not believe or trust in this God. If you are not for this God, then you are against this God. This is what the Bible makes clear.

Romans 3:21-24 says:
"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law [meaning we cannot earn righteousness or salvation by following the Law], has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

These verses show that ALL are sinners and no one is righteous, and that redemtion of our sins comes from faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 says:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Think of the terminology in this verse. "Wages" are something we earn, like at our place of employment. The term "death" in the New Testament is just another way to say "Hell". So, because of our sin, we earn Hell. Did you notice the word "sin"? This is singular, it means one sin can send us to Hell. Now since God loves us, He gave us a way out. He gave us a "gift", which is something we cannot earn. This gift, was eternal life through the sacrifice of His sinless Son, Jesus.

John 3:3 says:
"In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

If someone trusts what God says, they will turn from their sin and follow Him. Anyone who trusts in Him is born of the Spirit, and the Spirit lives in him. This is a new life. One free from the chains of sin.

John 14:6 says:
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

This couldn't be any clearer. Christ says it himself. No one will get to heaven but by him. His teachings and his actions (way) are what we must follow and strive after. He is the embodiment of "truth". And he is the only way to eternal "life". The verse right after this one reads: "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well." You can infer from this, that if we don't trust Jesus, we don't trust his Father. "Faith" is trust in God.

Romans 10:9-11 says:
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Paul says it plainly right here. If you believe in Jesus and what he has done, you will be saved from Hell. Remember, Paul was sent by Christ to teach and preach this very thing. Read about this in Acts chapter 9.

2 Corinthians 5:15 says:
"And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again."

Those who trust God, and trust that Jesus is God's Son that died for all, will no longer live life for themselves but for Christ. This is what faith in God causes. This is what faith in God is.

Revelation 3:20 says:
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

This is pretty much the invitation given from God to Man throughout the whole Bible. God does nothing but try to get Humankind to choose Him. This is what love is. He has given us the alternative to Him which is Hell. Choosing God instead of Hell is not a hard thing. He wants nothing but the best for us, but because of our pride, we do not see His out-stretched arm.

What I think is sad, is that people are not willing to listen to a God who speaks to us like any normal human being. He gives us things, tells us to do things, commands us to stop doing stupid things, and loves us just as a Father would. He even punishes us like a Father. He has talked to us personally, to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, and the prophets; sometimes verbally, sometimes in visions or dreams or through His angels. He has told us plainly what was going to happen in the future, and has brought these things to pass. He has given us the means to record the things He has done on paper so that we can reveal these things to the oncoming generations. Not only do we have these things copied into our modern Bibles which are written in thousands of languages so that the whole world may know, but He has also left us proof of these things on earth. We can know that the ancient cities and civilizations of the Bible existed because we have dug them up. We can know that the things which happened in the Bible are true, because they have been recorded in other sources that are Non-Jewish and Non-Christian that are from the same time era. We can know that the People of the Bible were real because we have secular testimonies about them from the times they were alive.

All these things could be sought for, but the ones who have been told about God and Christ wish not to. People think they're going to lose their freedom or something if they give in to Him.

There's one thing I've always wondered about since I became a Christian. Why do people on this planet, always seem to think that God is some sort of clich'e? It's like He's the one that everyone believes in, but don't really believe in. I could ask someone if they believe in God, and they would say 'yes', and I could ask them if they think He has a plan for us and they would say 'yes', but when told that God HAS come and said 'I AM WHO I AM', and has said 'THIS IS MY PLAN. CHOOSE ME OR CHOOSE DEATH' no one wants to even try to commit. And not only will they not commit, they won't even try with an unprejudiced mind or heart to see if the claims are true or not.

Does it not seem right that if God exists, and if we actually can come to believe it, that we should seek Him? Wouldn't He show Himself in a way that we can understand? It wasn't hard for me to find Him. It was only hard to look past my sin and pride so I could make a good start in searching. The God of the Bible won't leave you guessing for answers, that is, if you keep asking questions, and actually keep searching for those answers with and earnest mind.

"Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'"(Matthew 22:37)

That one word, mind means that we don't have to commit intellectual suicide when believing in Him.

What matters is that we ALL agree in the truth.

"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

I've read the whooole thread so I thought I'd add my 2 cents

"To say, "if you can accept those who see other sides of this world then you can perceive more of it," is to trust everything that everyone says as true about their perceptions. And this cannot logically be done. This "acceptance" you talk about is an extreme form of "toleration." If you hold a view that murder is wrong, and someone else holds a view that murder is okay, are you going to accept, or should I say tolerate this other person's view?"
I was going to agree with OkCityKid but I think you've got a very good argument there. Although we don't need to accept bizarre beliefs, I think we should always, at least try to understand those beliefs. For perhaps there is a good reason for them.

"It is sad that over the past 2,000 years since Christ, Christians have been interpreting the Bible the way they personally feel inclined to."
I think there is any other way to believe something. One cannot blindly follow our parents' faith in the hope theirs in the right one. Unfortunately, you are correct, it means Christians may never agree.

"What matters is that we ALL agree in the truth."
Unlikely to ever occur I think, so it looks like with doomed for hell

Anyway, I agree with most of the rest of what you said.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

Dumbteen - you can probebly read faster than me

Strongclad - I haven't read all your post yet. but I will.

In nature you have people who study trees, and other people who study fish - etc. There is so much to know that it is not possible to know what the other person knows. And ofcourse you can't believe what you don't know. But if you listen, you learn. Maybe that is a better explination. In Chirstianity, unfortunately - people don't listen, they already know. If nature has so much to offer, how much more does God who created it. Not one person, group of people or organization could possibly know.

I haven't read all your post - I will though - Have garden work to do before the sun goes down.

Take Care

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

DANG!! My post was freakishly long!

DumbTeen--

quote:

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"I was going to agree with OkCityKid but I think you've got a very good argument there. Although we don't need to accept bizarre beliefs, I think we should always, at least try to understand those beliefs. For perhaps there is a good reason for them."

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quote:

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"I think there is any other way to believe something. One cannot blindly follow our parents' faith in the hope theirs in the right one. Unfortunately, you are correct, it means Christians may never agree."

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quote:

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"In nature you have people who study trees, and other people who study fish - etc. There is so much to know that it is not possible to know what the other person knows. And ofcourse you can't believe what you don't know. But if you listen, you learn. Maybe that is a better explination. In Chirstianity, unfortunately - people don't listen, they already know."

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quote:

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"If nature has so much to offer, how much more does God who created it. Not one person, group of people or organization could possibly know."

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"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

Srongclad - Almost finished reading you post -

The manuscript - We're getting a little ridicules. Ofcourse no one has the original - what does it matter - what does that prove? I don't want to argue about such silly things.

You're about to get into the Trinity - people have died over such triviality. But on your definition I agree.

Both you and Dumteen are missing the point. I don't think we should all agree.

In the Navy they have learned that it is best to put two commanders together who have differing view points, this way they will fight and argue and better decisions are made. One thing that makes our country great is that we are made up of Democrats and Republicans.

Still Reading

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

Strongclad is in the lead - 130 more words than the Okcitykid - Will the Okcitykid catch up?

"This is a world where people trust blindly. Which is not always wrong, but if the faith you have is wrong and the consequences for not believing in the right faith are bad...then you might wish you would have searched for the truth a little bit harder." Ok - Mother Teresa believed in praying to mother marry using a necklace of stones. Did that matter - did she not still do great things?

This whole idea of having the correct beliefs to be the right person is so wrong. I always go back to the Navy because it has taught me so much. Aboard my first ship we had a Catholic and Protestant Lay Leader. They both believed different things yet they both did a lot of great things for other people. They were both my friend and everyone else's, and we would die for them, we had that much respect for each one of them. Though they believed different things, they did not fight with each other.

But yet - we can both tell stories of Catholics or Protestants we have known who were terrible. Beliefs are important, but what is in the heart is more important. Beliefs cannot describe what is in the heart. We shall know them by their deeds.

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

okcitykid: This whole idea of having the correct beliefs to be the right person is so wrong. . . I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head. Righteousness is not found solely by right belief but is manifest by life lived (seeking) righteousness as examplified by the life of Jesus whom they call Christ. To a great extent Christians will call jesus Christ but deny Christian lifestyle as an extension of that belief.
Strongclad: I think his statement carries the implication of ' that none know the fullness but that we may come to know in part.'
In regarding Jesus as the Christ, He never put himself equal to GOD, the Father so one might do well not to exceed the master (your Lord Jesus Christ). Although much is made of One GOD statement, the LORD GOD gave the statement: HE is a Spirit. So although their are many spirts There is only ONE which is GOD (the CREATOR).
Jesus came as the Son of Man but through out His Life, He never lowered Himself as other prophets. By this act He is the Christ (not GOD but the Son of GOD).
In some Eastern Religions aspire to rise the individual to this (similiar) state just as Christianity does so in that respect; they both enter through the same door (although you may have disbelief) For the LORD GOD is GOD of all creation (all men) so that there is only One Way, HIS WAY but we all must seek the path we choose.
Why do people not follow GOD's Rules:They feel that they would have to give up those things they desire. We want to keep our cake but to eat it too.
I was driving past a building when I noticed the sign 'Sacred Cloth'. So I went in to see what it was all about? On the walls hung printed cloths of various eastern design so I step up to the receptionist and asked her. I explained that I was curious about the use of the word 'sacred'. She was from India and said that in her religion, the young women (virgins?) wore white veils which were gathered and used in their religous ceremonies. She in turn asked me 'What I did for a living?', I thought for a moment then I responded 'I live my life.'

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."
[  Edited by cturtle at   ]

Strongclad Believes: "God saves according to His will. The Bible states clearly What throughout the whole Old (through prophecy) and New Testament (fulfillment of that prophecy) that it was God's will to send His only Son, as a sacrifice, for sinners, that we may share paradise with Him and not go to Hell. Those who do not believe that Jesus was God's Son, that all sin (breaking God's laws and commands) is evil, and do not believe that Jesus died and was resurrected on the third day for our sins do not believe or trust in this God. If you are not for this God, then you are against this God. This is what the Bible makes clear."

You are not alone in what you believe, many believe as you do. Once, I also believed this. Its a long story - but I did create a new web site: http://www.okcitykid.bravehost.com/

I now believe in salvation only because I had a dream. My dreams are the only thing I can be sure of, as I'm not real certain about the bible. I don't believe that we are saved from hell. We are saved from this. As someone had explained in an earlier post - this is hell. For some people it is, and for others it might be heaven. But there is a better place and a better way to be for those who seek such - When you reach this place or way of being. This is all gone to you - and the other place is so much more. I don't believe in hell. I think hell was created to scare people into believing things that they would not otherwise believe. Salvation is giving up yourself. As it was described to me in a dream. God makes us unto himself as if we were a ball of clay. This dream did not mention anything about Jesus. It is very possible that Jesus is directly involved in the process. It is also possible that Jesus is just a teacher, by following his teachings - we'll get there. I don't know - it doesn't matter. God will make me unto himself as if I were a ball of clay. I had this dream about 4 years ago. Though it does answer the one most very important question "salvation". I am left with many questions. And I have asked for answers and not recieved anything. My conclusion is that if I new all the answers then I could tell everybody they were wrong. God doesn't want that. It really doesn't matter. God works with what others do or are able to believe and understand. I believe that to some, God appears to be a woman.

Okay - I'm getting wordy - I'm catching up

Let me add this though. I had to have a dream to have faith. He or she who is greater than me requires nothing.

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

From Strongclad: " What I think is sad, is that people are not willing to listen to a God who speaks to us like any normal human being. He gives us things, tells us to do things, commands us to stop doing stupid things, and loves us just as a Father would."

You are right - some people have real trouble with a personal God. They think it is equaly sad that we believe in a personal God. God works with us either way.

From Strongclad: "All these things could be sought for, but the ones who have been told about God and Christ wish not to. People think they're going to lose their freedom or something if they give in to Him."

While we are on the earth plain we free to choose, but to move on to a higher being - we have to give that freedom up (this is what I believe). It is complete trust or faith that we do this, but, once again - we do it willingly. I had a dream once when I was 13. Jesus was just Crucified, and I was so angry over it. It was so wrong I thought. Then the door of heaven opened up just enough for me to come through. I couldn't do it, I couldn't go through, It was like I was scared and I cried. At that time I was not ready, and I may not be ready still, but to go through that door, you have to give yourself up.

I'm almost done

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

Strongclad - Ok, I'm done - I've read all of your post and answered what I could.

Let me just reiterate - You are not wrong and I am not right. If a bird falls from its nest, pick it up and put it back in the nest, and for this you are right, and I will do the same. We knew this was right, our parents didn't have to tell us, we didn't read it in the bible, the church didn't teach it, nor did we dream it. We just new because we have a good heart. And I know Strongclad you have a good heart and would do this just as I would.

If you feel you need to read the bible to me - go right ahead, I'm listening - But just try to make your posts shorter

Thanks for jumping in there cturtle, I was feeling all alone.

cturtle does not always understand me and I don't always understand him. But it doesn't matter. We are friends, and he would put that bird back into its nest also.

Keep the faith - And God Bless You

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
[  Edited by okcitykid at   ]