Voluntary Human Extinction Movement - Page 2

im sorry but im having a hard time trying to think how this isn't SUICIDE...

everyone stops breeding and gives up there life and dies of old age and whatnot.. in the end the entire human race dies... sounds like a long term suicide movement to me... its like... "we care about the planet!" what about whats ON the spinning ball of rock? we dont necessarily have to commit suicide to safe the earth, recycle, walk instead of useing cars or even use a bike lower your "carbon footprint" as it were but you dont have to commit suicide and kill out the human race to save the planet...

TO: forgottentruth


Did you "completely" read my post from April 19, 2009?

Did you 'properly research' (this means hours – not minutes) the VHEMT web site?
http://www.vhemt.org



forgottentruth:
I'm sorry but I'm having a hard time trying to think how this isn't SUICIDE...


ANSWER:

'Please' don't use the word suicide when referring to VHEMT.

VHEMT isn't about suicide. 'Please' research this issue at the VHEMT web site.

VHEMT Question (with Answer): Why don't you just kill yourself?

* This is the fifth question from the top of the following web page:
http://www.vhemt.org/death.htm#suicide

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forgottentruth:
everyone stops breeding and gives up their life and dies of old age and whatnot..


ANSWER:

VHEMT Question (with Answer): Do Volunteers expect to be successful?

* This is the fifth question from the top of the following web page:
http://www.vhemt.org/aboutvhemt.htm#serious


Yes, it's a FACT that from the moment you're born you begin dying.

It's NOT a fact that you will die of old age. To be more specific about your 'whatnot' – you could die today or tomorrow; maybe quickly, or very slow and painful (i.e. cancer, disease, etc.).

The point is: your only destiny is DEATH*.

* It's pointless to discuss 'belief systems (conjecture)'.

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forgottentruth:
in the end the entire human race dies...


ANSWER:

Two-hundred (200) years ago that's exactly what happened; 'the entire human race died'. None of those people exist any longer.

But, starting now and in the coming 150-years, there will be more people than in all of human history combined:

365 days (per year) x 150 years = 54,750 days

54,750 (days) x 235,000 'DAILY' births (after deaths) = 12,866,250,000
(See Population Clocks)

999 million + 1 million = 1 billion (1,000 million)

12, 866, 250,000
(billions) (millions) (hundred-thousands)


7 billion (present) + 13 billion (future) = 20 BILLION people

BUT, this mathematical answer still needs a 'geometric progression'. Assigning a geometric progression is subjective.


So, for my argument I'll use a final number of 24 BILLION people.


POPULATION CLOCKS:

http://www.yourecosource.com/blog/earth-clock/

http://math.berkeley.edu/~galen/popclk.html

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

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forgottentruth:
its like...'we care about the planet!' What about what's ON the spinning ball of rock?


ANSWER:

I know you didn't 'properly research' (this means hours – not minutes) the VHEMT web site.
Why not?

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forgottentruth:
we don't necessarily have to commit suicide....


ANSWER:

'Please' don't use the word suicide when referring to VHEMT.

**********************************************************************


forgottentruth:
...to safe the Earth, recycle, walk instead of using cars or even use a bike lower your 'carbon footprint'


ANSWER:

Now, comes the hard part. You want a 'feel good' answer. There isn't one.

You're stating common 'feel good' myths about gasoline/diesel vehicles, recycling......and the 'myths' go on and on.



THE TRUTH:
'Mankind is the single greatest threat to Earth and all the other creatures living on it.'


I could show dozens of examples to support THE TRUTH, but I don't have the time,
therefore here's "only" one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch

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forgottentruth:
but you don't have to commit suicide and kill out the human race to save the planet...


ANSWER:

'Please' don't use the word suicide when referring to VHEMT.

You keep stating about 'the human race dying'. Well, two-hundred (200) years ago that's exactly what happened; 'the entire human race died'. None of those people exist any longer.



FACT:
'Mankind is NOT benevolent - therefore it's doubtful Gaia (inclusive of Man) can be saved.'



There I said it. I told you there weren't any 'feel good' answers.


In addition, you base your argument as an 'All or nothing' statement. Why?

VEHMT isn't an 'All or nothing' movement. There are options.


You should understand that 'mathematics doesn't deceive'. Whereas, the following are
very deceptive:

         --- Parents, relatives, friends, and neighbors who Breed human beings

         --- Politicians

         --- Governments

         --- Educational institutions

         --- Religious organizations

         --- EGOISM / EGOISM / EGOISM
....and so on


If a billion people believe/say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing – 'I want a baby.'


INSIGHT TO MY LIFE:
"I Love my son and daughter enough to have spared (no birth) them this slavish and pointless existence – then DEATH."

At the age of 25 I chose surgery (vasectomy), and never Bred a human being. I don't have
any offspring.

**********************************************************************


"forgottontruth" you're an interesting person, and your argument was worthwhile because it gave me a chance to educate you about VHEMT. And, hopefully you'll continue to be open-minded about this very important 'movement'.


You can relate to VHEMT in one of three ways: Volunteer, Supporter, or Undecided.
(www.vhemt.org/join.htm)

VHEMT Volunteer:
'All of us should voluntarily refrain from reproducing further, thereby bringing about the
eventual extinction of human beings.'


VHEMT Supporter:
'Intentional creation of one more of us by any of us is unjustifiable at this time. Extinction of the human species goes too far.'


Undecided:
'Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Maybe I'm a Volunteer, or maybe I'm a Supporter. I'd like to know more before I decide.'

Interesting cause... but i don't think i would join it in that it would be an interesting experience to have something grow out of my balls.

TO: Jacker Jones


"PLEASE" will all due "Respect" and friendly intent I request that you properly research (this means hours – not minutes) the VHEMT web site: http://www.vhemt.org

If not for your own sake, then for the sake of the INNOCENT CHILD which you've decided to birth into this existence - and DEATH.

"Please" read this page:
http://www.vhemt.org/biobreed.htm#babies


In addition, have you ever considered ADOPTION for the "experience"(J.J. used word: experience)
of raising a human being?


Also, there is Foster Parenting, Big Brother/Sister Program, Volunteer Programs helping abandoned children, Volunteer Teacher Programs (no license required) for children. And more.


"If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem."

Kudos to you Wooly Bully!!!

Your statements are FACTUAL. As a Cynic I'm only interested in FACTS.

Are you a Direct Realist? Cynic?

I've always been impressed with VHEMT because it's about "THE Truth".

Hi Wooly Bully

I was surprised that 'neo-ocelot' only asked about opinions, without an overview of what VHEMT is about. No matter, you've done a fantastic job posting about VHEMT.

My parents told me about VHEMT when I was in high-school. I'm a 'Boo Boo Baby' and they wanted me to know about the seriousness of overpopulation, and their irresponsibility of my birth. And 'NO' their honesty didn't upset me (I get that question all the time). My parents are very loving and kind-hearted.

Anyway, I spent hours and hours reading the VHEMT web site, and then I totally understood why my parents had explained about my being a Boo Boo Baby. And, it only took me 1-week to decide, 'There's no way I'm going to birth a human being.' In the next few years I'll undergo a tubal ligation (also protects me in case of rape).

Once again, 'Thank You' Wooly Bully for bringing back VHEMT to Captain Cynic.

"You're the man Wooly Bully!!!"

I'd have posted here sooner but I've been on vacation.

lol..... lol chortle chortle

TO: The Real MacKay / Yakety Yak / The Big Picture


Your compliments are accepted with 'My Thanks'.

It's difficult to educate people about VHEMT because many of their 'open-minds' are actually 'closed'. So be it.

THE TRUTH is never easy for people to accept because of their egoism, immorality, immaturity, ignorance, and fear of Death.

Once again, 'Thank You' for the compliments.

Let them believe what they want; if they are true to the movement they will eventually drive the movement into nonexistence literally speaking they will all die. Eventually nature will restore itself so I say more power to them there doing me good.

quote:

---

'It's difficult to educate people about VHEMT because many of their 'open-minds' are actually 'closed'. So be it.'

---

I going to play devils advocate look at your self. You are closed minded about everyone else's perspective; you are only intersected in you own.

whos closed minded?

TO: CrypticTruth


TERMS:

* Belief (conjecture)
      confidence in an opinion without justified proof.

* Devil's Advocate
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position (one he disagrees with) for the sake of argument. This process can be used to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure.

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CrypticTruth:
Let them believe what they want...


ANSWER:

VHEMT states FACTS. In addition, VHEMT provides information about the imminent danger of
Global overpopulation, which in turn is destructive to Gaia.

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CrypticTruth:
if they are true to the movement they will eventually drive the movement into nonexistence...


ANSWER:

Your statement is a fallacy.

VHEMT Question (with Answer): Won't VHEMT die out when all its members die off?

Third question from the top of this web page:
http://vhemt.org/death.htm#meme

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CrypticTruth:
Eventually Nature will restore itself....


ANSWER:

Your statement is a fallacy because it's not possible to predict the future.

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CrypticTruth:
I say more power to them there doing me good.


ANSWER:

I assume you're referring to the deaths of VHEMT Volunteers, Supporters, and the Undecided.

Yes it's true, when there fewer people the destructiveness to Gaia will become less severe. Thereby, you benefit.

But, the people you're referring to comprise less than .000000000000001% of the population.

You should be concerned about what truly threatens you:

                     231,468 DAILY births (after deaths) – yes, per DAY.

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CrypticTruth:
I going to play devils advocate.....


ANSWER:

You're using the term 'Devil's Advocate' out of context. And, your statement is a fallacy since VHEMT states there are other 'perspectives':

You can relate to VHEMT in one of three ways: Volunteer, Supporter, or Undecided.
http://www.vhemt.org/join.htm

VHEMT Volunteer:
'All of us should voluntarily refrain from reproducing further, thereby bringing about the
eventual extinction of human beings.'

VHEMT Supporter:
'Intentional creation of one more of us by any of us is unjustifiable at this time. Extinction of the human species goes too far.'

Undecided:
'Stop trying to put words in my mouth. Maybe I'm a Volunteer, or maybe I'm a Supporter. I'd like to know more before I decide.'

**********************************************************************


VHEMT states facts, and is trying to educate people about the imminent danger of Global overpopulation, which in turn is destructive to Gaia.


It's obvious that 'CrypticTruth' is unknowledgeable about VHEMT, and ignorant of the serious threats to himself and YOU – overpopulation.


FACT:
THE Global threat is due to: 231,468 DAILY births (after deaths).


POPULATION CLOCKS

http://www.yourecosource.com/blog/earth-clock/

http://math.berkeley.edu/~galen/popclk.html

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

Hi Wooly Bully,


I'm sure you already know about this link, but people new to VHEMT may not.

http://www.vhemt.org/motto.htm



MOTTO ANALYSIS

The values of the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (VHEMT) are said to be embodied
in this motto:


'May' – is a wish, not a command...............                   Freedom of choice.


'We' – includes all of us, not just them..............             Unity. No enemies.


'Live' – is what we have a right to do until we die......       Peace and justice.


'Long' – is for as long as we can, which isn't very.........    Good health and social security.


'And' – makes the connection between....................       Longevity and human extinction.


'Die' – is what we do. Living well includes dying well......    Dignity in dying.


'Out' – describes our place in Nature....................          Respect for all life.


Have a great week Wooly Bully.

quote:

---

VHEMT states FACTS

---

VHEMT is not an organization,. There are no official initiation procedures, membership dues, or leaders. The movement is "a state of mind," and all you have to do to join is believe. Thus, the website is able to manufacture the claim that VHEMT has 6 billion followers, the entire population of the planet. They are able to do so by classifying their members in three categories: Volunteers (people who give up reproduction in the interest of human extinction), Supporters (people who give up reproduction not for extinction, but because they believe the world doesn't need any new humans at the moment), and Potential Volunteers and Supporters (in other words, everyone else. You may not have known it, but according to this definition, you're already a long-standing member of VHEMT). There is a dearth of objective data related to VHEMT membership, but the fact that there are only 230 active subscriptions to These EXIT Times indicates that their numbers are quite small.

quote:

---

Your statement is a fallacy because it's not possible to predict the future.

---

This negates all your statements and claims of VHEMT because as you stated 'it's not possible to predict the future'. Since you labeled my statement as a fallacy by your logic yours are no truer than mine.

There are many things in here that I take issue with but for my first post I will stick to my biggest problem with the movement.
Probably the biggest issue I have involves two major discrepancies:
1. Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.
2. FACT: VHEMT isn't only about "extinction" (I don't in fact even understand the quotes around the word extinction).

Now, here is the discrepancy:
ex⋅tinc⋅tion 
Biology. the act or process of becoming extinct; a coming to an end or dying out: the extinction of a species.

Okay, so there are one of two options at play here seeing as the word extinction is actually in the name of the movement itself. VHEMT either:
1. doesn't understand the word extinction or
2. is intentionally misleading people through their inclusion of the word.

Either way it does not speak for the intelligence or honesty of the movement and this makes them suspect in my mind right off the bat.

And before anyone jumps in with accusations of lack of proper research (which I always do to a great extent eventually on areas I'm not well versed in) know only that the particular objection I have voiced today is simply one of the discrepancies between the linguistics of the movement and their specified beliefs. As an English major for the last decade or so I have more than adequately researched that particular subject to speak and/or debate it.

More to come.

TO: CrypticTruth


The following is my evaluation of your April 23, 2009 post.



CrypticTruth:
VHEMT is not an organization.....


ANSWER:

Yes, you're correct about VHEMT not being an organization. It doesn't make any claim to be an organization – it's a 'movement' (ideas) – Voluntary Human Extinction Movement.

***************************************************************


CrypticTruth:
...'state of mind'....believe.


ANSWER:

Your statement is a fallacy. You're using a common debate tactic of trying to dissuade me
without using facts or evidence.

***************************************************************


CrypticTruth:
....the claim that VHEMT has 6 billion followers......


ANSWER:

Your statement is a fallacy and not logical. VHEMT doesn't make any such claim.

Why are you trying to deceive???

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CrypticTruth:
.....able to do so by classifying their members in three categories....


ANSWER:

Your complete premise is illogical and doesn't apply common mathematical principles.
Your statement is a fallacy, illogical, and you're confused.

Your confused interpretation of how a person can 'relate' to VHEMT is a product of your imagination. You're simply being emotional, instead of factual.

Thus far, you've presented one (and only one) fact; VHEMT isn't an organization.

***************************************************************


CrypticTruth:
There is a dearth of objective data related to VHEMT membership, but the fact that there are only 230 active subscriptions to These EXIT Times indicates that their numbers are quite small.


ANSWER:

Once again, you keep stating 'membership' as though VHEMT is a club or an organization. Yet, you first stated, 'VHEMT is not an organization.....'

What resources did you research to conclude there are only 230 active subscriptions?
And, why didn't you provide a web page 'link' to this information to prove your statement.


FACT:
"These EXIT Times" hasn't been published since 1994.
http://vhemt.org/join.htm#tet


FACT:
There are forums for people interested in the 'ideas / movement':
http://vhemt.org/join.htm#tet

NOTE: The referenced web page is out of date and isn't likely to be updated anytime soon.


Regardless, 'CrypticTruth' is trying to use a common debate tactic of 'numbers' without
providing proof.

In addition, the numbers he's referring to are irrelevant to the subject of human overpopulation.


My logical statement to CrypticTruth is:

'If a billion people believe/say a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing – 'I want a baby.'


But, since CrypticTruth likes numbers here's a number: 69,930,000 (70 MILLION)

That number is 1% (one-percent) of the Global Population (give or take a few million). Yes, the population numbers are extremely large, so it's always a guesstimate.

It's impossible for VHEMT or any other entity to know GLOBALLY how many people agree with the 'ideas' of the movement.

Therefore, it's pointless to debate numbers regarding people who accept the 'ideas' of
the movement (VHEMT).

***************************************************************


CrypticTruth:
This negates all your statements....


ANSWER:

Are you spoofing me???

It's apparent that your intent is to create illusions about VHEMT.

Also, your statement is a fallacy and illogical. You're stating my words 'out of context', a common debate tactic.

***************************************************************



SUMMARY

'CrypticTruth' is confused about VHEMT and keeps stating 'misinformation'.


Are YOU concerned about human overpopulation?

If not.......

If so, VHEMT provides mathematical facts about the imminent danger of Global overpopulation – which in turn is destructive to Gaia.



POPULATION CLOCKS

http://www.yourecosource.com/blog/earth-clock/

http://math.berkeley.edu/~galen/popclk.html

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html