futility of romantic 'love'

Spicesoup- It warms my heart to hear you have found the ability to forgive and move on. You can now continue on your search for happiness within your life. I am so happy myself that you are now able to release all this!!!

I can totally relate to you with the discussion of Forgiveness.

Long story short - I was with my girlfriend for over two years and she was great but then she pulled "I don't love you like that anymore" and I was devastated. Just over a month later I got my closure finally and I was actually able to see the light at the end of the tunnel and move on. Not a week later I find out about her and my bestfriend. They like each other and are now involved. It shocked me so bad. I had been friends with this guy since Kindergarden. I was FAR from over her and they both knew that. They betrayed me - mainly my bestfriend. He doesn't care that he is hurting me like this.

The point is that even through out the betrayal and pain, and he knows he is doing wrong to me (because I have talked to him about it) and doesn't care, I have found the strength to forgive them but they are still being kicked out of my life. They are not good friends. I am released from the pain and anger. Forgiveness is everything.

Of course I still am hurt be the whole situation and I am sad that it turned out this way but I am no longer controlled by the anger and I am now able to resume my life.

there is still a wistfulness about this story.

he HAS made changes. but all after so much strife !!

his environment of open sanction, his stubbornness, and maybe his conviction in his love for me, made him refuse to see my point for so long.

and i had to deal with not just the pain of the issue itself but alos of his refusal to change for this long. the anger was double as a result !

and he has hated that part too.

he DID see my point of view in the end. he DID make changes on each of the three things but after such a huge war...

i wish that the war had not happened. and wonder at the same time, that had the war not happened, wud he have even stepped out of his envirnmental conditoning to SEE my pain ?

i wish that we cud be here with the changes without the blood that was spillt along the way and the death of the relationship that it has caused. and at the same time i wonder about the original question i had raised - that why shud i have been hurt at what his instinct was making him do. why did he have to change himself and restrict himself to prove his love for me ? the fact that society has made all males "control" their desires to different extents - where is the justice to them in this world that we live in ? how do the two sides ever find a common ground ?

anyway. i will live my truth. and thats the only thing i have under my control in any case. let the rest of life happen with futility

x x x

and now a new set of feelings : shame at myself, disgust at myself for debasing myself so much. for allowing so much loss of dignity thru fighting for this long. wish i cud erase my soul. i give myself the creeps thinkign about how low i had dropped.

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why did he have to change himself and restrict himself to prove his love for me ?

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The ability to choose ones way in life. The ability to choose how one will think. To choose. Thats what makes us Humans and special compared to every other creature known. We still have basic instincts but we are also so much more than that. The capacity to love to the depths of eternity. This could kind of go towards religion in this topic. Just my opinion.

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and now a new set of feelings : shame at myself, disgust at myself for debasing myself so much. for allowing so much loss of dignity thru fighting for this long. wish i cud erase my soul. i give myself the creeps thinkign about how low i had dropped.

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You fought long and hard for a cause you believed in with all your heart. You did nothing wrong at all. We would never grow as people if there was never hardship. The battle makes us strong and wise. This is just how life works I guess.

yes u r right that i fought long and hard for what i believed in.

and he too has been a gentleman and not been unkind ever in my struggle.

but the fact remains that he didnt want much of this intensity and devotion. maybe that was a reason to avoid taking more than he cud give. maybe he just didnt want me as much. whatver his reasons he didnt treat me badly on grounds of our differing levels of neediness for the other.

but yet i was intense. and gave all. and fought for too long to keep a relationship alive which had so many problems. i am feeling shame for that part. the line where i shud have withdrawn was crossed long time ago. while i was in the story i didnt see it as such. but now i do. clingy. maybe forcing myself on him. i feel terrible that there were many things i did which were definitely debasing. like i wudnt let him go even if he wanted to. at that time, i felt close enuff to him, and felt so much oneness that i didnt even see myself as going down on my knees. and yet now i feel that maybe i made a fool of myself.

and he had to watch me lose my dignity and grovel and fight for attention, for time, for restrictions. i wish i cud save myself from seeign myself ever again. and i hope i never have to face him again ever. the disgust is all for myself. and its worse because he has done nothing to bring this feeling on !! its just self-realisation

zach, your point about his changing may be true. but then why did his instinct bend to accomodate mine, instead of the other way around ? in the pure theoretical argument, maybe i cud have curbed my instinct of possessiveness to accomodate his 'male' instinct of spreadign his seed, just to prove my love.

i am so so tired.

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but yet i was intense. and gave all. and fought for too long to keep a relationship alive which had so many problems. i am feeling shame for that part. the line where i shud have withdrawn was crossed long time ago. while i was in the story i didnt see it as such. but now i do. clingy. maybe forcing myself on him. i feel terrible that there were many things i did which were definitely debasing. like i wudnt let him go even if he wanted to. at that time, i felt close enuff to him, and felt so much oneness that i didnt even see myself as going down on my knees. and yet now i feel that maybe i made a fool of myself.

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I know you feel bad that you may have dragged it out longer than it needed to be, but realize it needed to be dragged out for you to realize what you did and learn from it in the way you have. It has already happened and things have settled and it couldn't have gone any other way because this is how it happened. Don't beat yourself up for what has happened. Learn and look foward to today and the future. No sense in beating youself up over it. As long as you have learned something from it all - thats all that matters. ^^

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zach, your point about his changing may be true. but then why did his instinct bend to accomodate mine, instead of the other way around ? in the pure theoretical argument, maybe i cud have curbed my instinct of possessiveness to accomodate his 'male' instinct of spreadign his seed, just to prove my love.

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I believe this is a matter of how you have been brought up and what morals you possess. He simply has different moral standards than you and that is something that shouldn't be bent either way. How we aquire our moral standards is quite debateable but none the less your standards are standards and shouldn't be bent.

We all have instincts that basically drive us right? But we must factor morals with them at the same time. So this can become a very complex discussion.

First we must come to a conclusion on whether his fantasies are instinct driven or simple a lack of morals as compared to you and I. Or is it both?

This is important because morals standards MUST be upheld no matter what as to not compromise self integrity. And instincts can be supressed and sometimes must be supressed due to moral expectations. Like my instincts tell me to go fuck as much as possible but I don't listen to them because I won't be happy because that goes against my morals. I am trying to find a balance to gain happiness.

There is always instinct driving us so we dont give up I think. But our morals judge how far or how limited we will let our instinct go. Kinda see what Im saying?

He simply doesn't have as much morals as you do so he lets his instincts take control to a level where you feel is unacceptable. You expect a tighter reign on your partners basic instincts. Which requires more morals and more control. And there are men out there with this kind of control and moral perspective. Just a matter of finding one.

Hope I didn't confuse anyone.. This is how I view it.

Edit: Also something else I should mention.

The instinct is something that can be bent and controlled. Your morals can be bent too but I don't think morals are something that should be bent at all if you are to remain who you are.

i think instinct is self driven and morals are superimposed byt others.

a child sees a candy in a store and reaches out for it instinctively. but the mother stops the child - its not yours and so u cant have it until u pay for it - its stealing if u dont pay - its not good to be greedy - impose control now becos we will eat dinner in a short while - its wrong for yr health and so on. theres rules mixed with morals coming at u , for the good fo a larger group called society.

change this example slightly the child sees an ice cream with another child - if he is not full already - surely he will want it. and then if the child is young enuff, with instinct as his only guideline he WILL reach out or may even get into a fight with the other to acquire it. as they grow older, it will be upbringing - which will be the "morals" or rules imposed by others.

and the justification for this set of rules is sensitivity to other human beings.

morals a re controls then. to ensure long term peace in a system. they may be counter-instinctive. and are usually controlling instinct or taming raw desires for more order within the system. by 'order' i mean elimination of discord and higher average levels of satisfaction for all the members of that system over a long span of experiences.

and i am sure he is not compromising anything within himself when he buys playboys or fantasizes about other women. he is just being true to his instinct. and no one ever has imposed any moral upon him until now, so he does not even see it as a 'necessary' action to eliminate these. all his life in his earlier paradigm, his sensitivity did NOT yield a reading that he has done anything to offend.

it is only with ME, a woman from a different planet that his earlier set of rules dont seem to work !

and as i mentioned earlier this set of rules or morals are necessary for the survival of a system. a system which consits of more than one person, and the interactions within them.

in our case, in the absence of such sensitivity and our inability to arrive at a set of morals that ensured we both were happy, has resulted in this system has falling apart. so we are no longer one unit of 2 people who r going to live happily ever after !

I agree. And understand exactly what your saying.

I think we have come to a great understanding about all this.

What do you plan to do next with your life Spicesoup?

i'm happy in my memories. i've lived and covered every significant milestone i cud have ever wanted to. with this man i found my detsination too. there was fulfilment and contentment in that story. i can live that feeling for the rest of my life - am 41 so if i'm lucky i'll be done in the next 15 years - so that gives me enuff time to complete my responsibilities of raising my kids. and in the meanwhile i will also complete living all the dreams i had put off until 'one day'.

i have found closure for my whole life, in this story. everything i have yearned for, if found. it healed my life. yes there were other issues i found too, but those bad things have lived their usefulness by leading me to my decision of moving away. and after the forgiveness, they are no longer worth remembering. the overpowering positives are the only things that shud and will remain with me. so there is no place else i want to be. i am happy and content to go back to he memories of our short life together and use that alone to feed me emotionally. with this kind of life closure what else does one need ?

and u zach, i hope thru your thinking and talking to yrself u will find a way out without allowing this to permanently damage you.

Would you ever consider falling in love again? Do you think your too old for a new relationship? Just curious.

Im very glad to hear that you have found the closure needed. You are indeed an amazing person. Glad to have met you! ^^

no. its not about being old.

its about feeling like i have everything i need. i am not shutting out anything nor am i being blind to the absence of my man. but i feel complete. and am anchored. i have a community of friends that i am very connected to. i have my extended family that are there - no matter what - tho' i am not too connected to them. and i have my kids and pets and a whole life that occupies me IF i choose to let it.

thru this relationship, i found myself being repulsed by 'male' attention from others becos of the devotion i felt for this man. i feel that even now. and i think i may feel this forever - so another romantic relationship does not seem likely.

there is some legend about "aristophanes" - its in some really obscure pages on google - and his twin or soulmate - i think this guy was my twin. the converse may not be true. but thats just too bad for me.

these kinds of experiences dont happen all the time. in my 41 years this is the first time i have felt so anchored and at peace. so i lwont let go of this story, even if the story lives only in my head !

and thank u for yr support zach.