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The last leg for Atheism - Page 4

User Thread
 35yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Conway is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I dont' think I will continue to post on this topic. I find myself to be repetive. But the first post I wrote still remains. We can't not prove God's existence. And it is better that we exist after death. For the reason of haveing a reason to live.

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""So this is where im supposed to wright something snazy and truthfull?"-impossible."
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Conway: your conceptually confused. Lets begin:
quote:
Do you then realise that even if you accoplish you task, and you understand everything as nature, it is still then pointless. Because a moment will come were you no longer have all that knowledge you have gained. What is your point. Futhermore not beleiving in God is an escape and beleiving is the solution. You are the one without a solution. You have no reasoning for reasoning. Were as I do. But you don't like the most logical of answers so you call it an escape. It is the most logical thing that an omnipotent being should exist. Or that in fact we ourselfs will reach omnipotent levels. There is no reson in us liveing if there is no resaon. And we do live so then there must be a reason

That is not a reason why it is pointless. Firstly you are full of naivety. Secondly, you are blind from an Atheist's point of view, that the point of life is to live through no fear of death, no illusion, no faith, no misconception, no brainwashing, etc. Thirdly, I really do begin to ponder whether you have regurgitated bullshit, that you haven't taken into consideration, and/or you may haven't read mine or others posts thoroughly. I also think your words are the symptom of an emotional outburst and that your perception of what life is seems dissaranged . You haven't really provided a robust rebuttal. Maybe not, thats just my perception. Thats understandable, because your here to learn. This is a thread about the absence of a 'god'. So this is a thread that you can learn from Atheists, considering that your confused about Atheist's belief systems. And yes your posts are rather monotonous. I would also like to note that you feebly have made a massive generalisation and that you may or may not have realised that you have failed to consider that belief systems are provisional.

As a biologist, I know what 'life' is. I also know what 'death' means. Death is a stage of life within an organism. Life has an end- death. Death=end. That is it. There is nothing after death except that we decay. Same applies to all of life such as fungi, plants, bacteria, amobea and invertebrates when they die. Ask yourself, whether bacteria or say a blood cell has an afterlife. After all we are only carbon units. When we die we return to the ground and/or atmosphere. Death is one of the purposes to life. Without death, life would be purposeless. When we die, our life goes forever. Thats it, nothing else. Nothing is created nor destroyed. We therefore are always part of earth's elements. Thats the beauty of life. Life is just a transformation. From conception to death. No heaven, no hell, no reincarnation, no judgement day. We are after all, just a body of chemical matter, in the form of a living concious organism. To realise that life is all that there is, is not scary, its wonderful. We only have one life buddy.


Conway, take this into consideration as well:
So if God can make plans, think logically or exist, then logic is an arch-power that encompasses God and gives reason for god's existence which appears to refute the idea that God could be the creator of logic.

The God as first-cause argument is slightly undermined. If there is no logical reason why God exists then it is more likely that there is no logical reason why the Universe exists, and that instead of assuming that the organisational force is a 'god', it's simpler and more rational to assume that it is the universe itself.

I'll also note that; it appears that whether God exists for logical reasons or not a fundamental contradiction occurs. The only answer is that creator-gods cannot possibly exist. If God is placed "beyond logic" this is a contradiction. And if it is said that Human logic is incapable of realizing such metaphysical truths, then this also undermines any argument that can be made by one human to another, for the existence of god.

Logic is more powerful than God. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic created God, is all-powerful and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If God has logical thoughts then logic is more powerful than God. If God chose to create anything it must have had reasons to do so, therefore logic will have been dictating God's thoughts from the moment of God's inception.

If God thinks logically, then logic must have existed before God and God did not create logic. If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic is more potent than God and restrains God. If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator. If it is true that God exists outside of time and therefore "everything has a cause" does not apply to God then it is equally possible that logic, not God, is what exists outside of time and requires no cause.

To say that god doesn't obey logical rules, to say that God could create a round square, for example, is to say that the abilities of god are abilities that cannot logically exist. 'God' is an illusion. 'God' is a human construct. 'God' is a fraud.



quote:
Not one Atheist has the right to say anything is bad or wrong or immoral. Because without a God there is no reason for morality. And therefore all people have the right to do what ever they want including rape and murder, because without a God he or she wil not have anything to answer

How so? Give me comprehensive logical and evidential reasoning. I find it fallicious how anyone can think they can explain why anything at all exists by hypothesizing that something else exists in addition (such in your case Conway). Consider relativism. Sophisticated moral thinkers would accept that morals are relative to individual contexts. That is where theologists fail, or at least fall short of.

1 If God exists, then he is a being who is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent.

2 If God exists, it would be in God's interest and within his capacity for all human beings to know his ethics perfectly.

3 All human beings do not know God's ethics perfectly, which is shown by their disagreeing about many moral values.

Therefore: God does not exist.

I think Bertrand Russell, explains that there is no objective moral truth as well, so consider this:
The theory which I have been advocating is a form of the doctrine which is called the 'subjectivity' of values. This doctrine consists in maintaining that, if two men differ about values, there is not a disagreement as to any kind of truth, but a difference of taste. If one man says 'oysters are good' and another says 'I think they are bad,' we recognize that there is nothing to argue about. The theory in question holds that all differences as to values are of this sort, although we do not naturally think them so when we are dealing with matters that seem to us more exalted than oysters. The chief ground for adopting this view is the complete impossibility of finding any arguments to prove that this or that has intrinsic value. If we all agreed, we might hold that we know values by intuition. We cannot prove, to a colour-blind man, that grass is green and not red. But there are various ways of proving to him that he lacks a power of discrimination which most men possess, whereas in the case of values there are no such ways, and disagreements are much more frequent than in the case of colours. Since no way can be even imagined for deciding a difference as to values, the conclusion is forced upon us that the difference is one of tastes, not one as to any objective truth...Moral codes seems to reflect people's adherence to and participation in different ways of life. The causal connection seems to be mainly that way around: it is that people approve of monogamy because they participate in a monogamous way of life rather than that they participate in a monogamous way of life because they approve of monogamy




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"The summit is just a halfway point"
[  Edited by summit at   ]
 32yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Jacker_Jones is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
The question of God's existence is irrelevant in life. For it is not the question of God's existence but it is the question of the existence of reasons. Those that believe in God will tell you that he is all seeing all knowing etc. In other words the reasons of life is already predetermined through the eyes of God.

Those that say he doesn't exist would agree that it's because things happen for reason. We breathe because our lungs need oxygen. We breed to continue the human race. But if you know enough about everything (science, psychology, etc) you could say that you can predict what's going to happen. For instance you are waiting for a bus. You have a schedule but you know that it's raining, it's a busy hour, past experiences and you can predict when the bus will arrive. In other words the buses arrival is predetermined. Therefore the existence of God is irrelevant. For the same result occurs in both scenarios (it's predetermined). Both paths lead to the same door.

Now since it's irrelevant therefore God does not exist. But that's not to say that it isn't important. God may not exist, but is it really that negative for someone to still believe in such a thing. You go try telling a priest that God doesn't exist. He will simply try and explain that he does. He does and will not look at the question. Can you judge someone who doesn't know better? I believe that such people need God to reach the afterlife. The end path is still the end which path you walked is irrelevent. Some people need to believe in God to pick a path there.

I personally believe that the afterlife is just a form of perfect communism. Where all are equal and have no desire to not be equal. God is the mere illusion of solving life. The completion of the puzzle. If someone needs the balance of an illusionary God, then so be it.

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"I love to see people struggling for their purpose in life..."
 66yrs • M •
MattBeckwith is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
quote:
The question of God's existence is irrelevant in life. For it is not the question of God's existence but it is the question of the existence of reasons. Those that believe in God will tell you that he is all seeing all knowing etc. In other words the reasons of life is already predetermined through the eyes of God.

Those that say he doesn't exist would agree that it's because things happen for reason. We breathe because our lungs need oxygen. We breed to continue the human race. But if you know enough about everything (science, psychology, etc) you could say that you can predict what's going to happen.


What if God were a part of the universe. That is, what if God were IN the universe, subject to the same laws as we are, just inifinitely more powerful?

In that case, there would be reasons for things, and there'd be reasons for God's actions, but he'd be on such a higher level than we are in terms of consciousness that we'd be in awe of his power, and able to call on his power in our daily lives.

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"Niceness over intelligence any day"
 32yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Jacker_Jones is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
The key words there are what if. What if I were a movie star. Pleasant thinking doesn't make it true.

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"I love to see people struggling for their purpose in life..."
 35yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Conway is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Summit

Nice try.....
Let's leave the personel slander down a bit. I'm guilty too. For learning's sake as you wisely stated.

First off
Your points of veiws are just that "points of views" as are mine. Which I could pin point miny things you have said and state how they are opnions. As you could with mine.
Secondly
I find the theorys of logical and god to be most confuseing. But I beleive that God is more than logic, becuase God is everything. I make claim that if we knew God and logic in it's totaltarity, then it would not seem so complex to us, and they would in fact work in perfect unison.
Thirdly
You state that if God exist then he wants us to know his ethic perfectly. Who are you to say what God wants, I personel beleive that God doesnt' want us to know them perfectly, that in fact our lack or knowledge is a way for us to gain knowledge by what we call experince. Terefore your statement that it is because of this that God doesnt' exist is blown to peices.
Fourthy
I constitley try to not use emotions in my posts. It is clear at times that I have. It is also clear that you have used them in your last post as well. Very good and condeseding slander.
Fiflty.
The fact still reamins in the end. We can not prove God exist. But it would be more "fun" if he did. That should be suffinetly stated I beleive.

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""So this is where im supposed to wright something snazy and truthfull?"-impossible."
 32yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Jacker_Jones is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
So you believe in God because it's more fun if he existed than if he didn't. The main reason why people still believe in God is because they are so confined to that way of thinking they don't even really look at the question. Why do kids believe in Santa Claus? Because they don't question it. They just assume that if they get presents, the milk and cookies are eaten, and he's at the mall that he has to be real. They don't look at the logic behind it. So do you truly look at the logic or do you look at what would be nice like so many kids do on Christmas.

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"I love to see people struggling for their purpose in life..."
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Oh yes, I agree Conway, it is an opinion, as we know, it is a discussion after all. Yet an opinion with logical and evidential reasoning. I thought you might find it interesting, since it seemed you were slightly confused on the belief system of Atheists. Just remember that beliefs are provisional, and relative. You still haven't given reason to my question.

You raise a good point Jacker Jones. Perhaps it may seem that theologists accept religion as an escape, or a short cut to answer their confusion of the 'unknown'. It is an escape from the natural logical world of reasoning and rationality. A pursuit of a type of spirituality, that can often become an illusion.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
[  Edited by summit at   ]
 31yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that awakendwraith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
so, what have we learned from this discussion?

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"Why cry for those that often cry? Instead, help them smile, and smile for those that smile."
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that firstright89 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
kinda late a usual but hey
i believe in god because of the forces unseen things happening when i ask them to and such

We also have a saying here noone in a fighting hole(foxhole) is atheist.
The fear of death is wat makes us alive and religion guides our purpose.

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"choose to be happy today"
 31yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that awakendwraith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
or maybe they just dont want to die. all mammals have an instinct when it comes to danger.

its called fight or flight.

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"Why cry for those that often cry? Instead, help them smile, and smile for those that smile."
 44yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I have never met an athiest who lives like one.

You see to be an athiest, you have to have infinite knowledge to know there is no God. Most athiests are agnostics.

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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 31yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that awakendwraith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
you are an idoit. plain and simple. to be an atheist you need to have a lack of beleif that there is a god. not the knowledge that there isnt one.

do you need to know there is a god in order to be a christian? no.
quote:
Most athiests are agnostics.

this is in extreme conflict with the first thing you said. so you do in fact beleive that some people do have infinite knowledge, and in that perspective that there is no god. after, an atheist needs infiniote knowledge to know gods existence is not real, so that means that there is nogod because there are some atheist.

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"Why cry for those that often cry? Instead, help them smile, and smile for those that smile."
 66yrs • M •
MattBeckwith is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
awakendwraith wrote:

"you are an idoit. plain and simple."

There's no call for rudeness.

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"Niceness over intelligence any day"
 66yrs • M •
MattBeckwith is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
JackerJones wrote:

"The key words there are what if. What if I were a movie star. Pleasant thinking doesn't make it true."

I was not asserting that it was true.


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"Niceness over intelligence any day"
The last leg for Atheism - Page 4
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