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Abortion - Page 5

User Thread
 32yrs • F •
Saber is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
I'm not even saying abortion should be illegal. It most definitley needs to be legal in this day and age, I'm not going to argue that.

And while it is true you can't help people when they don't want to be helped, you can still try to inform those who remain ignorant and unaware of a problem in the first place, or those who aren't quite sure on the matter.

quote:
For all you people who just feel it's wrong. Don't abort! Yes, it's that simple. It really is possible to have personal beliefs without imposing them on others.



If someone considers abortion to be highly unethical (and this, apparently, is undebateble) on the terms that one is terminating a valid and real human life, then they obviously believe that what constitutes a human life to them, is an undisputable truth. How can you then expect them to stand by and not try to change peoples minds? How can you expect them to allow what is an attrocity in their minds, keep happening over and over again?

I am aware that to point out what makes abortion unethical, is very controversial and probably will not be agreed upon at this point in time, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to try and further the point myself and I do not believe that I am wrong in wanting to do so. People who believe in what I do, are most certainly probably fighting a losing battle, but I'd rather lose the battle standing by these beliefs, than give up and not try to change peoples minds at all.

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"We are all brothers under the skin - and I, for one, would be willing to skin humanity to prove it"
 35yrs • M •
NickBertke is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
I've always found it amusing how the Australian government will ban abortion on the streets but not in the hospital. This suggests most questionable reasoning to me. If our government truly believes abortion is a private affair between a woman and her body, why can she not deal with the affair in a manner that abides to this belief?

quote:
People who believe in what I do, are most certainly probably fighting a losing battle, but I'd rather lose the battle standing by these beliefs, than give up and not try to change peoples minds at all.


Well put. "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" is a poor theory by which to surrender your beliefs. I believe abortion is wrong and always will. I believe what I do because I feel in my heart what is right and wrong, good and evil, and I intend to stand by that for the rest of my days.

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 39yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Jimbobby is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Morality isn't being kind; you can be kind and stupid; like giving a beggar whose a crack addict money and then he goes and buys more. You just add to the problem. You could buy him a cake and then if he is really poor that's a favour. Being kind and niave is different to being moral. In the example, it would probably be best to leave the animals anyway because of the damage done to their respiratory organs. Would you rather be living dead or just dead?

I could bang a drum all day about how horrible things are but there has to be a point at which you accept it and start to do something to stop it; and more importantly be objective.

I've heard the anoraks called Bob with thick glasses say we must as a species be proactive...blah blah blah...prevention better than cure. Yep, good idea; is it going to work?

If we make sensible, rational, and more importantly, feasible options now things will smooth out. Being nice to people and things sometimes is not in our or there best interests. With abortion; if the woman wants to abort; that's her choice. But the reason it can be her choice is that because it has been shown that babies born into unstable families may become disruptive and criminal.

If she wants to keep it. Keep it. And if she can't support the child then adopt it. Simple.

When I say morality changes with understanding; I really mean as science evolves and we as a society learn about things, traditional views, such as religious views, must give way to objectivity and sound judgement.

I may sound stubborn but you misundertand if that's the case. You have to be ready to change how you see things; but as yet; I can't see a better argument than mine.

I'll leave you with the example of a soldier. His mate was dying. He had lost both his legs and had been shot in the chest. His entire body was burned and his face unrecognisable. It was highly unlikely he was going to live and even if he did; he wasn't going to live a happy life. He asked his friend to shoot him. His mate did. That to me, is sound judgement, even though in today's society that may be deemed murder (or vigilantis).









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"Only gay people have quotes to look good"
 32yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that ChrisD is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
"How can you expect them to allow what is an attrocity in their minds, keep happening over and over again?"

Listen, the people who abort are not Hitler. It's not the same thing, so to use the word atrocity is a little strong. The matter of abortion seems to be a weighing of quality of life over potential life. People like you who don't give two shits about the quality of the woman's life are assholes. Quality is everything. The reason revolutions happen is because the general quality of life sucks. People like you who just philosophize about how unethical it is to throw away a blank canvas which couldn't care less about living or dying because it doesn't even have the concept in its mind are soulless. People like you are friends of nothing and enemies of humanity.

To your defense though, I will say that an abortion after three months can be a little jarring and so the woman should make up her mind before then or else should be advised to have the baby (and most likely put up for adoption.)

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"The truth will set you on fire"
 35yrs • M •
NickBertke is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
What is a 'being'?

It is scientifically correct to say an individual human life begins at conception. It's no longer a matter of opinion, it's plain experimental evidence. All criteria of modern molecular biology supports this. Conception is scientifically defined as the initial stage of fertilization. In 1857, the AMA deplored the popular ignorance that a foetus is only an individual upon quickening. So as far as modern science is concerned, human life begins at conception.

I believe it's wrong to kill any being unless it expresses a will to die in the eyes of the law.

Thoughts?

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 47yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that Sorceress is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Chris D have you ever seen a picture of an unborn baby at 8 weeks (yes that's 2 months). How can you say that after looking at the image of this tiny life, with the obvious form of a human being that it should be allowed to be killed?



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""Each child holds the world in an open hand to mould it into any shape they choose.""
 32yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that ChrisD is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Listen Sorceress, there are plenty of perfectly good human beings on this planet already. I'm content with saving the time and energy that that baby would take up to help the humans that are already walking and talking on this planet now. Yes, that fetus should be allowed to be aborted if the mother wishes it. It is not independent of the mother and therefore is a part of that mother. She can do what she wants with her body as long as it's her body. I think it's very arrogant to tell someone else what they can and can't do with their body. Scratch that, it's totalitarian.

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"The truth will set you on fire"
 32yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that awakendwraith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Listen Sorceress, there are plenty of perfectly good human beings on this planet already. I'm content with saving the time and energy that that baby would take up to help the humans that are already walking and talking on this planet now


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"Why cry for those that often cry? Instead, help them smile, and smile for those that smile."
 39yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Jimbobby is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
The W.H.O. suggests that worldwide, abortion rates are very similar irrespective of the legal status of the country. Therefore, abortion undertook properly and safely is better than abortion undertook less effectively. So, it is rational to leaglise abortion.

History teaches us one simple rule. That there is always some kind of power struggle. Set this against the idea that population is limited by resources and the utilisation of resources, and is checked mostly in line with this by war, famine and disease and you come to two startling conclusions.

One: make contraception more widespread via availiabilty and education to prevent unecessary population growth.

Two: Encourage science and technology.

Those are youre sensible options that should be paramount. Your other options include abortion; and if a birth is likely to cause upset to both child and other people; abortion should be allowed.

I saw a mother giraffe neglect her child; no doubt to let it die. Why would she does this? Because she thought naturally rather than by trying to be clever. Each situation is different.

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"Only gay people have quotes to look good"
 35yrs • M •
NickBertke is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
quote:
It is not independent of the mother and therefore is a part of that mother.


It could be argued, however, that because modern science states that human life begins at conception and that conception begins at fertilization, that the being has a right to decide whether to live or to die. After acknowledging this, I am inclined to agree with those who say abortion is similar to murder.

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 32yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that ChrisD is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
"It could be argued, however, that because modern science states that human life begins at conception and that conception begins at fertilization, that the being has a right to decide whether to live or to die."

Good idea! I can't believe I didn't think of that! Everyone always asks the mother what she wants but no one ever takes the time to interview the fetus. I wonder why no one ever did that before?

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"The truth will set you on fire"
 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that MugenNoKarayami is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Chris D have you ever seen a picture of an unborn baby at 8 weeks (yes that's 2 months). How can you say that after looking at the image of this tiny life, with the obvious form of a human being that it should be allowed to be killed?


Sorceress, I hate to butt in, but if you knew or found out that that picture was the result of a woman being raped, would you still be asking Chris that question. I bet you would word it in a different way.

The emotions tied to 'that kind of child', in my mind, would be unbearable. Sure it is the most beautiful sight at first glance, but does that feeling still apply after knowing how it was conceived?

The way I see it, the only way I see it actually, in this situation it really comes down to the heart breaking lesser evil.

If you consent to having sex and have a kid, it's yours, no question. If you do not consent to having sex and have a kid, that's not something you are accepting or are able to manually reject.

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"I'm a human being, God Dammit!! My life has value!!!"
 32yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that awakendwraith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Sorry mugen, wrote this up before you posted.

"Chris D have you ever seen a picture of an unborn baby at 8 weeks (yes that's 2 months). How can you say that after looking at the image of this tiny life, with the obvious form of a human being that it should be allowed to be killed?"

This argument is really good example of when two sides on an issue go way left and way right, simply for the sake of being right.

Nice pic sorceress. Its pretty cool how you could find a computer generated image like that that made it look like we'ed be killing innocently little defensless babies. Heres a look at an 8 week old EMBYRO ; they arent fetuses yet at 8 weeks, grabbed from the site http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/pregnancycalendar/l/blwbw.htm which seemed pretty reliable to me.

prenatal developement of the embyro is explained in easy to understand terms on this website http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/genpsyfetaldev.html

Now, the thing that you would be "aborting" at 8 weeks old is something that doesnt even have all of the organs required to sustain life, and they are no where near developed enough to be considered human, as explained in the article I just sited. The baby just starts developing the brain in week 8, the beggining of brain development, which leads me to believe that the embryo does not have a consious thought yet, therefor is intirely and without question unaware of its own life. If you believe otherwise I would greatly appreciate it if you gave some sort of information towards your claims much like I have taken the time and care to do for you.

Thirdly, an abortion at that stage of life can be explained here.

How Medication Abortion Works

There are three steps for medication abortion:

STEP ONE
Your clinician will give you a dose of either mifepristone or methotrexate at the clinic.

Mifepristone - blocks the hormone progesterone. Without progesterone, the lining of the uterus breaks down, ending the pregnancy.

Methotrexate - stops the growth of the pregnancy in the uterus. It can also stop the growth of pregnancies that develop in a fallopian tube - ectopic pregnancies.

STEP TWO
You will take a second medication - misoprostol. Misoprostol softens the cervix and causes the uterus to contract and empty.

You and your clinician will plan the timing and place for the second step - you may take the second medicine at home. Or you may need to return to the clinic. Your clinician will give you instructions on how to take it.

You will take the misoprostol

* up to three days after taking mifepristone
* about five days after taking methotrexate

After you take the misoprostol you will most likely start to bleed heavily within hours or days. This is the abortion. You may see large blood clots or tissue at the time of the abortion.

STEP THREE
You will return to your clinician for a follow-up visit within two weeks.

* Follow-up visit. Your clinician needs to make sure the abortion is complete and that you are well. You will need an ultrasound or blood test.

In lamens terms, what this means is that they take a pill that prevents the hormone that makes them a women from being made. That is done to make sure that the cellular embryo in the body does not develope anymore. Then, they are given a pill to make them have a period. That flushes the womens system out. At week eight, when the women has a period she wont even be able to see the embryo that would have been her to-be child.

ChrisD you sick muthafucka! lol

"Listen Sorceress, there are plenty of perfectly good human beings on this planet already. I'm content with saving the time and energy that that baby would take up to help the humans that are already walking and talking on this planet now. Yes, that fetus should be allowed to be aborted if the mother wishes it. It is not independent of the mother and therefore is a part of that mother. She can do what she wants with her body as long as it's her body. I think it's very arrogant to tell someone else what they can and can't do with their body. Scratch that, it's totalitarian."

There is so much idiocy in this statement that I have no choice but to break it down sentence by sentence to try to get you to re-think, not change your point of view just to think about it again, what you just said.

"Listen Sorceress, there are plenty of perfectly good human beings on this planet already."

totalitarian- exercising control over the freedom, will, or thought of others; authoritarian; autocratic.
-an adherent of totalitarianism.

From dictionary.com. Well, unlike sorceress, you didnt give any kind of time limits. (Whic besides the point, leads me to believe that you understand very little about pregnancy) Which means that you are talking about killing a baby. Not an embryo. Something that is entirely aware of its existence. My neice, before she was born, would kick my sister in law in teh stomach untill my brother started talking to her. Not me. Not any of my family, but that person that she was most comfortable with. It doesnt matter that he was her father, it matters that she was aware of his existence. Therefore, by definition, you are a totalitarian for allowing someone to kill something that is aware of its existence. Because it is the will of all man to survive and it is more than apperant that a baby does think even if it is in the whom and you are adhereing to the ending of its life.

"I'm content with saving the time and energy that that baby would take up to help the humans that are already walking and talking on this planet now."

So you know how much energy it takes to take care of a child then? And even more so, how dare you tell someone that their unborn babies life is worth less than someone elses life. That is by far the most arrogant thing I have seen you say, EVER! I'll have you know that babies do not take up that much in recourses. From a families perspective. But if you are talking about an over all perspective, life, globally, if you are so concerned with the "energy crisis" of today that you are willing to not allow a human to experience the joy of life for fear of it wasting time and energy, then maybe you should go vote for the death penalty. Because even though there are a lot of people that are alive and deserve life, there are a lot of people that dont. They take up energy. I bet that thought never crossed your mind. No, you're just looking for somethign to say so you sound right instead of ACTUALLY THINKING about the situation. You could have come up with so many good reasons for abortion to be alud if you had thought for three seconds, but instead you just felt like masturbating at the mouth.

"Yes, that fetus should be allowed to be aborted if the mother wishes it."

I have tried for the past 15 minutes to find a video that tells of a particular kind of abortion that the womens rights activists are trying to get legalized. What happens, is when the baby is litterally out of the mother half way, they stab it in the head with a needle and kill it... But hey, its the mothers choice right?

"It is not independent of the mother and therefore is a part of that mother."

So essentially what youre saying is that people have the right to do what they want with there bodies right? I know thats what youre saying because thats what that means. If you disagree with that, then you are not seeking the truth and I will never speak to you again. So, you believe that people have the right to do what they want with their own bodies. But wait a second! Suicide attempts are illegal!! And thats why drugs are illegal. Same with driving to fast and having poor electric outlets...

"I think it's very arrogant to tell someone else what they can and can't do with their body. Scratch that, it's totalitarian."

Care to re-phrase now?

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"Why cry for those that often cry? Instead, help them smile, and smile for those that smile."
 35yrs • M •
NickBertke is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
"It is not independent of the mother and therefore is a part of that mother."

This is another argument I don't fully understand. A baby is not independent after birth. Leave it be and it will die. I can thus only assume you're referring to the child's physical independence, that is the leaving of the womb. If that be the case, I have this question for you: If the baby were placed back into the womb and its connections to the mother were remade, would this still be classified as abortion or murder?

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 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that MugenNoKarayami is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Sorry mugen, wrote this up before you posted.


hahha sorry awakened you worded it better than me anyway ^__^;;

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"I'm a human being, God Dammit!! My life has value!!!"
Abortion - Page 5
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