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Creation or Evolution? - Page 4

User Thread
 45yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
The logical outworking of an evolutionary philosophy leads to death and meaninglessness of life


If we come from randomness how can any meaning be attached to our lives. "We are mearly dancing to the tune of our DNA" as I believe Richard Dawkins put it. As far as death goes: It is the death that comes not only at the end of life but at every stage: Our meaning and reason for living dies. Our hope dies. Contrast that to the life that Christ promises.

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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
What Hitler stated as reasons for doing what he did is by no means in accordance with Christs teachings!


Petesmith: And that is one reason, why Christianity, can and has been fraudulent. I think, Hitler's own words make your claim rather dubious. I could go on and on about the corruptions of Christianity, but I won't because I understand this thread is about evolution and creationism. However, have a read of this, and see what you think.


'I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.'

( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )


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'The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfill God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men their form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will.'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 562. )


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'Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )


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'My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago - a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.

'Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!

'And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20. )


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'For this, to be sure, from the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: 'Lord, make us free!' is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: 'Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!''

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, pp. 632-633. )


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'I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, p. 208. )


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'I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .

'As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting these poverty-stricken people.

'Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262. )


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'And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity. If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection, where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the same Government.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart, February 15, 1933. )


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'We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered in Berlin, October 24, 1933. )


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'Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 383. )


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'We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people. [...] It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the 'Old Guard' of the Party at Munich, March 19, 1934. )


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'The anti-Semitism of the new [Christian Social] movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 119. )


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'Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 375. )


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'Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. A fight for freedom had begun mightier than the earth had ever seen; for once Destiny had begun its course, the conviction dawned on even the broad masses that this time not the fate of Serbia or Austria was involved, but whether the German nation was to be or not to be.'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 161. )


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'As far as this variety of 'folkish' warriors, are concerned, I can only wish the National Socialist movement and the German people with all my heart: 'Lord, preserve us from such friends, and then we can easily deal with our enemies.''

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 565. )


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'It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 436. )


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'What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe.'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 214. )


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'Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, January 30, 1934. )


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'The advantages of a personal and political nature that might arise from compromising with atheistic organizations would not outweigh the consequences which would become apparent in the destruction of general moral basic values. The national government regards the two Christian confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality: their rights are not to be infringed.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag, Berlin, March 23, 1933; published in his My New Order )


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'Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.'

( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933. )


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'[T]he world has no reason for fighting in our defense, and as a matter of principle God does not make cowardly nations free...'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 622. )


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'This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief.'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 152. )


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'While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.'

( Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message, January 1, 1934. )


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'National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State. For their part the churches cannot for a second doubt that they need the protection of the State, and that only through the State can they be enabled to fulfill their religious mission. Indeed, the churches demand this protection from the State.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a Radio Broadcast July 22, 1933; from My New Order. )


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'I know that here and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted Christianity. No, it is not that we have deserted Christianity; it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics, which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine of the Confessions or with their religious freedom, nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends.

'There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church, while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.

'The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes, for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934. )


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'It would be more in keeping with the intention of the noblest man in this world if our two Christian churches, instead of annoying Negroes with missions which they neither desire nor understand, would kindly, but in all seriousness, teach our European humanity that where parents are not healthy it is a deed pleasing to God to take pity on a poor little healthy orphan child and give him father and mother, than themselves to give birth to a sick child who will only bring unhappiness and suffering on himself and the rest of the world.'

( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 403. )


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'I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lords work.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Reichstag, Berlin, 1936. )


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'At the head of our [National Socialist] program there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Nuremberg, September 6, 1938. )


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'May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Berlin, February 1, 1933. )


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'The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly be passed by a human being. That should be left to God.'

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939. )


And so finally:
quote:
As far as death goes: It is the death that comes not only at the end of life but at every stage: Our meaning and reason for living dies. Our hope dies.


so your saying that because biological organisms die, then life is pointless? far from it, my friend. There is no 'one purpose'. Purpose is within ones self. Therefore there is no universal, mainstream answer to purpose. The purpose of life is what you make it. If you want to discuss this issue further, I suggest you comment in this thread-
http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/thrdid=40813-u-frmid=12

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 45yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
As I said before, you can claim all you want to be doing something in the name of Christ, but unless it lines up with the word of God, you are deceiving yourself!

He even went as far as to take quotes from the Bible to support or justify what he was doing, but took scripture completely out of context. You can take any book out of context and make it say whatever you want it to say!

What I am say is that because evolution is a purely random process with no overarching meaning, the product of this randomness (US) can not attribute any meaning to ourselves.
This is the philosophy that Nietzsche built his 'God is dead' and other writings on. The same ones Hitler used in justify his actions.


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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
The sad thing is, Hitler used God's name, as one of the mechanisms of his attitudes towards WWII. Corruptency. Now back to the topic.

quote:
because evolution is a purely random process with no overarching meaning, the product of this randomness (US) can not attribute any meaning to ourselves.

It would be interesting if you could actually justify your claim, let alone try to extrapolate on your opinion, in a more comprehensive manner. I am referring to the 'meaningless' that you seem to be so fond of.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 45yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
"skl'f sfjk sdfsiwee fasifa eifuhfaf wfpfw wfpwnsd;;fhew"

Can meaning be attached to the above statement when it is mearly a product of random typing on the keyboard?

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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
everything has a reason.

quote:
because evolution is a purely random process with no overarching meaning, the product of this randomness (US) can not attribute any meaning to ourselves.

Care to actually justify your claim, let alone try to extrapolate on your opinion, in a more comprehensive manner? I am referring to the 'meaningless' that you seem to be so fond of.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 45yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
everything has a reason.


how does
"skl'f sfjk sdfsiwee fasifa eifuhfaf wfpfw wfpwnsd;;fhew"
have meaning?


If something is completely random how can it have meaning? This is the basis of evolution: we are the product of random chance! How can we attribute meaning to life then with that philosophy? Cant get much simpler than that!

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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
skl'f sfjk sdfsiwee fasifa eifuhfaf wfpfw wfpwnsd;;fhew


the meaning of this, is that you are attempting to make a statement.

quote:
If something is completely random how can it have meaning? This is the basis of evolution: we are the product of random chance! How can we attribute meaning to life then with that philosophy? Cant get much simpler than that!


The gene pool in a sexually reproducing population will remain the same as long as the five conditions are met:
- no mutations.
- no genetic drift.
- no gene flow. Migration of individuals into and out of the population does not occur.
- random mating. Individuals pair by chancem not according to their genotypes and pheotypes
- no selection. No selective force favors one genotype over another.

In real life, these conditions are rarely, if ever, met, and allele frequencies in the gene pool of a population do change from one genereation to the next. Therefore, evoution has occured. This tells us what factors cause evolution. Chance is certainly a factor in evolution, but there are also non-random evolutionary mechanisms. Random mutation is the ultimate source of genetic variation, however natural selection, the process by which some variants survive and others do not, is not random.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that lastresort is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
we have evolved over the past 100 years, we are entering the next stage of human evolution and it is not physical, it is mental...

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 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Navin is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
certainly the only explanation of a beginnning is creation. you cannot evolve nothing into something however you can evolve what was created into evolution. i have read and seen many convictive reports on the proof of our ancestry traced to a black woman named EVE. the accuracy of the bible is too close and coincidental to overlook, however the adaption and precision of science is essential and at time unbreakable. so to me honestly i believe in creation AND evolution. thats right i contradict myself but so does the only absolute constant in life: action / reaction. be it you have to live to die.

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"To kill man's hope is to kill man"
 61yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
We're getting off subject, but what the heck - I like all your Hitler quotes.

I am not a Christian, nor do I believe that the bible is the word of God. I am a religious man and enjoy the scriptures and in their defense, the scriptures tell that Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light and we know them by their works.

Anyone deceived by evil doers who make claims of great faith are only deceived because of their lack of knowing the scriptures.

Doctors are considered experts Chiropractors are not - but that is changing.

My son had one of the best doctors there was and he had the worst asthma that there was. Someone suggested it was allergies. We asked the doc about it and he said no. An allergist will poke him with a bunch of needles, get him upset and make him worse.

A friend at church says, please don't be offended, but we know this chiropractor and he's really good. So we took him there.

The chiropractor didn't charge us anything because he said he was experimenting with Asthma, as he had asthma when he was a boy. After the first adjustment, the chiropractor held out his hands, counting on his fingers, he named all the things my son was allergic to and said we needed to take him to an allergist, so we did. Turned out the chiropractor was right. How did he know?

Had we listen to the expert - his doctor - and ignored our friends advice, my son would probably be dead. The experts don't always know, sometimes they are wrong, and more often then we think. We should not believe something just because it came from an expert, we should question everything.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 45yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
read this
http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange1/current/lectures/selecti
on/selection.html


Natural selection is a random process.
from the above link
"When we incorporate genetics into our story, it becomes more obvious why the generation of new variations is a chance process. Variants do not arise because they are needed. They arise by random processes governed by the laws of genetics."

The random garbage I type can have no meaning because it came from a purely random process that is devoid of meaning.

BTW. The variations people point at within a species and say it is proof of evolution is nonsense. God has made each of us unique from one another. Those variations can never produce new gene information that was not present in the parents. In short a dog will never become a car, a reptile will never become a bird.

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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 35yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that etherealmeekle is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
we have evolved over the past 100 years, we are entering the next stage of human evolution and it is not physical, it is mental...


Indeed humans have evolved and are evolving but we are not becoming anything other than human.

The quotes were interesting because Hitler seemed to use Christianity to justify his belief in evolution. Hitler demonstrated what survival of the fittest looks like in practical terms. He wanted to bring about a new (evolved) race of humans and yet most evolutionists (that I know at least) seem to think he was evil...

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"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"
 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Petesmith: One thing wrong with your argument Petesmith, is the familiar, and I have to say rather irritating, confusion of natural selection with 'randomness'. To help you with your confusion of evolution:
Mutation is random; natural selection is the very opposite of random. Natural selection is a spontaneous natural order but not random. Natural selection is like a blind watch maker; it cannot see ahead. Natural selection, does not plan for the future. Events in Nature are not really random, but that many kinds of order and complexity emerge naturally and spontaneously from often very disordered and chaotic kinds of conditions. Even the mathematical expression is showed for these ideas in the "chaos" theory.

Now, one might ask, why should anyone wish to avoid anything that would introduce God into a scientific theory; and the answer is that God makes a poor addition to any scientific theory precisely because God explains too much. Being omnipotent, God can do anything. Thus, if we ask, "Why is the sky blue?" we could simply say, "Because God makes it blue." Since this doesn't really explain anything, it must be a strong principle of science to exhaust all other forms of explanation before resorting to something that will simply end inquiry. This must be true about life on earth just as much as about the color of the sky.

Evolution has no long-term goal. Unlike 'Creationism' there is no long-distance target, no final perfection to serve as a criterion for selection, although many people assume the stupid notion that our species is the final goal of evolution. The idea of tiny changes cumulated over many steps is a powerful idea, capable of explaining a huge range of things that would be otherwise inexplicable. Evolution can be more strongly supported by evidence of telling imperfections than by evidence of perfection.

Oh look, its raining DNA outside.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 32yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Cynic-Al is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
i will agree with summit that god does make a very poor addition to a scientific theory but for almost the opposite. god doesnt "explain" too much, god is an answer to why, but mostly scientific theory is the how. i believe we are all here by gods will, but i believe that science explains how we were put here. some people may say that robs him of his omnipotence, but i disagree, i challenge any of you to manage to make a universe which will evolve such a diversity of lifeforms. it takes a lot of power to create and maintain the universe. to me it makes sense that god would put systems in place to allow the universe to maintain itself to an extent. god still does miracles, but i think science and religion are two different parts of the whole thing, with neither providing the whole picture, religion is why, science is how.

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"So Schrodinger's Cat is not only neither dead nor alive, but might also be sexually aroused by elbows and peanut butter?"
Creation or Evolution? - Page 4
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