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Creation or Evolution? - Page 3

User Thread
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Atlantis5 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
With all due respect for other opinions, Summit's reasoning for the rationalistic approach on the evolution versus creationism debate complies with both mathematical, biological and empirical discoveries mankind has made so far concerning life and the nature is moves in on this planet.

Yet I believe there is a psychological element to be distinguished in this science versus religion matter as well.

Looking at the religious aspect with a psychological approach, it's well understood that many of us accept what we have been told from childhood on or in a period further in life. It's close to classical conditioning and perhaps even closer to (in)voluntary stimulation by the environment in which an individual grows up or lives (e.g movie "The Island". That's where a social and educational element comes into play as well. Consider your own education and what you have been told or taught. Were you or was it possible for you to think differently back then?

Looking at the scientific aspect with a psychological approach, we men (mankind) are biologically adaptive,
learning surival machines. (Fascinating fact is that the same goes for the bacteria that are currently thriving in your intestines. They, too, have adapted to a ever seemingly changing environment.) This cannot be denied.

All scientific findings point to that we indeed do had primate ancestors and that we are the result of a mindboggling chain of random events that took place in the earth's environment. And we are (with all human right) afraid and yet curious of the dark and unknown.

Darwin's insight was as well and eyebrow raiser as an eye opener to many listeners and readers at that time. In analogy, it was the same eyebrow raiser as when word spread that the earth wasn't flat and that falling off was either more difficult than staying on (Newton enstrengthened this 'theory' and so did the first aerospace scientists during the Cold War's Race For Space sub-era).

Science concerns itself (among other fields) about explaining phenomena with the use of the natural logic and patterns that are found with rules that seem to apply in 'our' () part of the galaxy and using that knowledge to solve other and new problems. Ironically, we human beings are experts at both solving and creating problems.

It is theorized that our ancestors interacted with and more or less awarely adapted to shifting circumstances through the profitable, genetic mutations that enabled natural selection. But nature itself has no morality. We created morality to increase general species survival chances. A very effective social thing. We are a part of nature, thus where does that leave morality? Could it be that God, morality, the pope, Darwin, creationism, evolution, politics are all results of chains of events that lead to human curiousity, ignorance and that unquenchable and exciting cranial thirst for getting rid of those annoying questionmarks? Which brings me to a somewhat cognetive psychological part: our relatively increased brainmass and extra 'perks' above other species in
nature, such a choice and ability of abstraction in/and thought. Without your brain, no debate. Although psychology is young, it does however can give a reason for this entire debate, doming this moral issue.

I may be wrong, but consider a homeostatis of the brain. Hunger is a non-regulatory drive, curiousity is perhaps another. Being at ease in one or the other way is what matters. Looking at a gigantic dark void of a discussable unknown origin makes you wonder what's inside. It makes you wonder a whole lot of things. What in God's name is this? () Where does it lead to? What if I jump in? Who put it here? What is it function, what is it's reason... and so on. That's what you seem to be doing most of the time as a human being. Protecting yourself from harm with the use of information. Having certainty (and information) can sometimes mean being at ease.

I know people that feel (increased) happiness when they hear a bird sing. They don't need more than that. Ask them why they feel like that, and they'll reply with "I don't know. I just like it." Yet others can't see why one could become happy from that sound. It sounds differently to them. To them, their body needs something less subjective. A shot of heroine does the trick. Works directly AND they can explain it. Either way, the greeting of (bodyinduced) drugs, like endorfines, is always a pleasurable one, whether you get it from a bird or a heroine needle. Here ends my attempt of analogy with the creationism/evolution debate.

Believing in something may give you this certainty, this happiness. And if you are happy with what you were told in your childhood and/or education and it satisfies you, it's a (or your) piece of cake to enjoy.

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"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives you the test first, and the lesson afterwards."
 35yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that etherealmeekle is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
To be honest, the vast number of pictorial depictions of Jesus being a negro must have escaped my experiences in life for I was under the impression that Christians view Jesus as white, just as they view Adam and Eve as white.



I doubt you would find many pictures that depicted Him as such but that doesn't change the fact that He was born in an Arab country and therefore would have a most likely dark completion (who knows He may have been albino). And in fact the stories of the Bible are all located in Arabic countries.

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"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"
 45yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Adam and Eve would have been dark skinned I think. Not black or white. This would explain how we get the different skin colours of today.

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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 35yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that etherealmeekle is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
All the descendents of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham and Japheth populate the world as the three main divisions of mankind, Mongloid, Negroid and Caucasian, respectively, and of their mixing.

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"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"
 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Atlantis5: A very interesting explination. Quite credible and rather true.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 61yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
okcitykid:
this 'superiority' of the humankind is explained by evolution. And yes, as you mentioned, homeo sapiens is currently the most dominant species, which has some significant control on our global environment.


It has been excused (like making excuses) but not explained.

We go from an ape to a man that builds a space ship and flys to the moon. No other animal on this earth has even come close to this.

It is my observation that we did not come from the same place that all the other animals of this earth who are one with this earth and we are not, but doomed to be its destruction. In the scriptures it says that the Lord breathed into us a living soul. The Lord never did this with any other animal. I'm not sure I know what that means. Except that maybe it just means that authors of Genesis way back when even then realized that we were different.

All over the world there are stories of the flood. They have found evidence of it in Europe but believe it was only in Europe and can't explain all the other stories around the world.

Why is it so difficult to say I don't know, instead of creating a bunch of theories or learning a bunch of theories and call it fact or develop a belief or be taught a belief and call it truth, and expect others to accept this as well.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Why is it so difficult to say I don't know, instead of creating a bunch of theories or learning a bunch of theories and call it fact or develop a belief or be taught a belief and call it truth, and expect others to accept this as well.


Its difficult to give up, for one simple reason; humans are highly advanced curious species, who require the regular intake of knowledge and stimulis in order to carry out a rather meaningful and/or satisfying life. Without intellectual questioning our conciousness wouldn't exist. I certainly don't expect people to accept theories such as evolution. However I would like them to. Same with anyone including you okcitykid; you have core beliefs, some if not all (apparently) related to creationism.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Atlantis5 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I think the only thing we can all be really sure about, is that no one knows exactly what happened.

About two thousand years ago, something happened in the middle east that appearantly was worthy or special enough to go down into the religious book of the bible.

Yet much like the sighting of Superman, where one says it's a bird, another thinks it's an airplane and another may think Elvis is coming back, it's all in perception and communication. We all know the pattern of storytelling wherein the truth gets blown up or replaced with a more 'spectacular' truth. This is what happens when people communicate with enthusiasm. And if there's something unreliable in this world, it's human communication alright.

Using my freedom of speech, I think of the book of the bible as a novel, the best selling commercial or advertisement of the greatest lucrative organisation mankind has ever spawn, abusing the human mind's ability of believing is something he cannot see. And it's perfect symbiosis, too. Church gives you happiness, the feeling something great is watching over you, and you give the Church happiness with your coins. Coins buying happiness sounds a lot like sniffing up a white line to me. Ever hear anyone say they had enough of happiness?

Economy teaches us that you should locate your business as far away from competion yet as close to the target consumer as possible. Crusades, incineration of competiting barbaric gods... nice way to protect an investment and continental monopoly.

If you ever decide to study economy, make sure you visit main office the new CEO of Catholism in Rome. I'm sure they'll be happy to receive free interns.

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"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives you the test first, and the lesson afterwards."
[  Edited by Atlantis5 at   ]
 61yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Its difficult to give up, for one simple reason; humans are highly advanced curious species, who require the regular intake of knowledge and stimulis in order to carry out a rather meaningful and/or satisfying life. Without intellectual questioning our conciousness wouldn't exist. I certainly don't expect people to accept theories such as evolution. However I would like them to. Same with anyone including you okcitykid; you have core beliefs, some if not all (apparently) related to creationism.


I will agree with that

It could be that there was a great flood in Europe and relatives of the survivors eventually traveled and settled the globe and told a story of the great flood that covered the whole earth.

Religion is a lucrative business. The power of fear - just ask Mr. Bush, he'll tell you.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 45yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Read this for a different perspective of the Creation / Evolution debate:

http://www.apologeticscourses.com/Evol.htm

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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 61yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I didn't read it all; I looked it over and saved it to my favorites for future reference.

There is a fear of religion and some justification for that fear. This fear is so great for some individuals that it has blinded them of the real world in an attempt to save us all from evil religion. Likewise, on the other side, you have some religious fanatics who are way out there.

I'm a member of the Unitarian Church, but I don't really much enjoy it because you have these individuals in their battle against religion. It's like alkaline and acid. Two complete opposites but can have the same devastating effect.

I say, let me be free to be free, please don't try to protect me from my freedom.

I came across what you have shared on NPR, and I agree with it. Evolution is a practical theory and should be taught in school as science. But I got a problem with something said elsewhere. Just because they're experts doesn't mean they are always right.


It's like medicine. The Chinese have proven that alternative medicine works. These are traditions that have been passed down generation to generation. Nobody knows why or how they work. The drug companies won't do a study because it's not profitable. This is the healthcare of the Chinese because they are too poor, and guess what, they are more healthier then anyone in the world. Just because we cannot explain it, doesn't mean it isn't a fact, but science won't believe anything unless it can be explained. While they're looking for explanations they're missing a whole lot of truth being ignored.

I do have one fault with this new education thing. Creationism should not be taught in science. We're pushing them, and there is no need to do that. Keep evolution in science and create a new course, call it higher thoughts and teach creationism under beliefs of the worlds. It doesn't have to be taught in science and it can still be taught in school.

I think we need to learn to be flexible. I am however very much against these people who are suing school boards over this stuff. I think that should fall under frivolous lawsuit.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
okcitykid:

quote:
Just because they're experts doesn't mean they are always right.

Can you justify this?

quote:
more healthier then anyone in the world

Wrong. What is your criteria for making this claim? China is still classified as a developing nation. I understand that your example of eastern medicine is sometimes a 'better' alternative to western medicine (btw I often favor eastern medicine). However are you only juxtaposing that knowledge can have alternatives (ie. creationism is an alternative to evolution)?



Personally I believe that evolution and creationism should be taught, yet as you mentioned okcitykid, seperately. Its up to the individual to make decisions of beliefs, not feebleminded institutionalized policies within the education system. However I find it rather despondent how creationism can be emphasised. It can cause catastrophic trans-cultural problems, for the individual, society and at a global scale, hence major militarized holy wars as an example.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 45yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Summit: I agree people should be free to choose what to believe. But I think evolution should be taught as a theory and not as a fact.

quote:
However I find it rather despondent how creationism can be emphasised. It can cause catastrophic trans-cultural problems, for the individual, society and at a global scale, hence major militarized holy wars as an example


Evolution gave Nietzsche the footing for his 'God is dead' philosophy. Hitler read Nietzsche extensively. He didnt read much else. Hitler used the evolutionary theory to come up with his 'Super race' philosophy. He gave Nietzsche's writings to Stalin and Mussolini. These evolutionary ideas have given rise to more death in one centry than all the others put together.

Ideas have consequenses!

The logical outworking of an evolutionary philosophy leads to death and meaninglessness of life etc.
The logical outworking of Christs teachings are life and unity (and eternal life).

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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Nietzsche's works suffered significant distortion by his sister Elisabeth, who managed his literary estate and twisted his philosophy into a set of ideas supporting Hitler and Nazism. Nietzsche was never an anti-semite. Nietzsche was an existentialist. Hitler is to be blamed for WWII deaths, not Nietzsche nor Darwin.
The conditions of evolution are:
1. More individuals are produced each generation than survive to have offspring
2. Variation exists between individuals in populations and some of his variation involves differences in fitness
3. 'Fitter' individuals make a relatively greater contribution to the next generation (in terms of the number of reproducing offspring) than the less fit.
4. Differences in fitness between individuals are inherited.

Hence opposing Hitler's ideologys and practices.

You may be unaware of the fact that Stalinist Russia rejected Darwinian evolution. Despite your claims that WWII was based on Darwinain evolutionary theory, Hitler's own writings give quite a different story. Rather than basing his racism on any evolutionary theory, Hitler based it squarely on his view of white Aryans as the favored people of God. In fact, Hitler declared that his program of removing Jews and other "subhumans" from the earth was a divine task forced upon him by the Lord Almighty: "What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, the sustenance of our children and the purity of our blood, the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the Creator of the universe." For Hitler, removing the subhumans from earth was not a matter of biology or evolution---it was a divine mandate from God Himself, the "work of the Lord", a "truly high mission".



quote:
The logical outworking of an evolutionary philosophy leads to death and meaninglessness of life

This would be interesting if you could justify your claim. Evolution involves changes over time in the genetic composition of populations. Without evolution starting 3.5 billion years ago, life today and in between wouldn't exist, my friend.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
[  Edited by summit at   ]
 45yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
FROM DARWIN TO HITLER:
http://www.csustan.edu/History/Faculty/Weikart/FromDarwintoHitler.htm

1. Not sure what you are getting at?
2. Ok? so?
3. What is the logical outworking of this statement?
4. Ok? so?

Just because someone does something in the name of something, It does not neccessarly mean that it is!

What Hitler stated as reasons for doing what he did is by no means in accordance with Christs teachings! I still say the same thing: Hitlers biggest influence was Nietzsche's work. I am not sure whether he got the modified or tampered with writings but they are the ones we have to day and the ones he read. Correct me if I am wrong.

Finally Hitlers quote above a gas oven in Auschwitz -
"I want to raise a generation of young people devoid of a conscience, imperious, relentless and cruel."

Line that up with the teachings of Christ!


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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
Creation or Evolution? - Page 3
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