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Creation or Evolution?

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1334 Posts / 44M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

Petesmith:
1. no, actually there is an abundance of fossil evidence. I don't know where your sources are coming from, but I can prove to you if you want that fossil evidence of all animal/plant phyla kingdoms in the fossil record is well established and documented. This biblical 'flooding of the world' event you have made reference to is a story. Floods don't cause continents to seperate. Continents seperate via a process called plate tectonics. The Grand Canyon, is not a result of plate tectonics, but rather it is a result of water erosion over billions of years. That is how canyons are formed- by water and/or wind erosion.

quote:
environmental adaptations are micro evolution (what makes you look different from your brother). These is completely different to Darwinian evolution.

2. Microevolution is now part of the evolution theory. I am well aware of micro vs macro evolution. (I am majoring in evolutionary biology btw). Micro evolution is a gradual change in gene pools, often over long evolutionary time periods. Charles Darwin considered such change to be directed by, and to result from, natural selection, but we now know that chance, termed random genetic drift, a process not envisaged by Darwin, also plays a major role. Evolutionists have a much better understanding of microevolution, particularly with respect to the effect of selection.

quote:
are you sure you want these to go do as evidence for evolution? It speaks more of a creator than the outcome of mere chance?

4. Yes I am very sure. Genetic material forms the blueprint to life. The theory of evolution would be rather blank without knowing and using genetic material. Evolution involves changes over time in the genetic composition of populations. Genetic evidence is found for example, from the origins of life, the Hardy-Weinberg Law, mutations, genetic drift, gene flow, nonrandom mating, natural selection regarding inheritence. All of those are examples of genetic evolution.

quote:
Also how do you explain the 'irreducible complexity' of cells?

Your wrong. Cells are reduced down to many levels. This is well established. I'll give you a brief explination instead (obviously you won't understand it, but this is a cell reduced down to its lowest level)
cells>organelles>proteins>polypeptides>amino acids> RNA>
nucleosomes>histones>chromosomes>DNA>
nucelotides> sugar, phosphate group, nitrogenous base>element>atomic molecule>atom

Hope that helps PeteSmith.


Ethereal:
quote:
Also it cannot explain where the world came from

yes, evolution only explains the origin and changes of life (which dates back approximately to 3.5 billion yrs ago). The origin of earth is part of other theories such as the big bang for instance.


okcitykid:
this 'superiority' of the humankind is explained by evolution. And yes, as you mentioned, homeo sapiens is currently the most dominant species, which has some significant control on our global environment.



"The summit is just a halfway point"

210 Posts / 41M
     :   33yrs   :  
PeteSmith

1 There are tons and tons of fossils. But where is the evidence of intermediate fossils. Take the human evolutionary process from Ape to Man. Where is the fossil evidence? The supposed horse evolution was branded a fake many decades back!

I never said the grand canyon was formed by plate tectonics. It was formed by water, but not from the water. The evidence reveals that the water would have had to flow in the oposite direction to the way the water flows today!

Water covered to the tops of the highest mountains would have transformed the earth below radically.

2. Microevolution is completely different to macro evolution.
The problem with pointing at micro evolution and saying its proof of macro evolution is that there is the problem of where new information for new species comes from. There is as much probability as a frog becoming a prince as there is of a 747-400 forming after an explosion in a junk yard! Where does the new information come from?
4. That points to a creator. If you see a clock in the desert you would rightly conclude that it was created by a designer for a purpose. Why would you think any differently when observing genetic material.





""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
[  Edited by PeteSmith at   ]

1334 Posts / 44M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

Petesmith:the intermediate evidence is well established and documented in most species, including homeo sapiens. If you are asking me for the evidence, go and read current scientific journals, go and ask university professors, research labs, etc in order to obtain direct evidence. If not, read text books regarding evolutionary history/evidence.
I know you never said that the grand canyon was formed by plate tectonics (i think you interpreted me incorrectly), I was saying that the biblical 'flooding of the earth that split the continents' is false, and plate tectonics explains the reasons. And the grand canyon was a new point.

quote:
does the new information come from?

No one said that micro evolution is proof of macro evolution. They are two different evolutionary mechanisms. New 'information' comes from the genetic modifications, genetic inheritence and genetic mutations of DNA as it interacts with the environment. Random genetic drift explains this (an example is speciation). Genetic variation arises by mutation. (once again if you want to know further, read a biological text). Hope that helps PeteSmith.

quote:
If you see a clock in the desert you would rightly conclude that it was created by a designer for a purpose. Why would you think any differently when observing genetic material


Because genetic material is biological, the clock is not. The clock is abiotic. Evolution refers to biological organisms. Evolution is the change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations. A concious mind created the clock, not the origin of life.


"The summit is just a halfway point"

210 Posts / 41M
     :   33yrs   :  
PeteSmith

Just on the first point:

Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (Neandertal man)—150 years ago Neandertal reconstructions were stooped and very much like an ‘ape-man’. It is now admitted that the supposedly stooped posture was due to disease and that Neandertal is just a variation of the human kind.

Ramapithecus—once widely regarded as the ancestor of humans, it has now been realised that it is merely an extinct type of orangutan (an ape).

Eoanthropus (Piltdown man)—a hoax based on a human skull cap and an orangutan’s jaw. It was widely publicized as the missing link for 40 years.

Hesperopithecus (Nebraska man)—based on a single tooth of a type of pig now only living in Paraguay.
Pithecanthropus (Java man)—now renamed to Homo erectus. See below.

Australopithecus africanus—this was at one time promoted as the missing link. It is no longer considered to be on the line from apes to humans. It is very ape-like.
Sinanthropus (Peking man) was once presented as an ape-man but has now been reclassified as Homo erectus (see below).

Currently fashionable ape-men
These are the ones that adorn the evolutionary trees of today that supposedly led to Homo sapiens from a chimpanzee-like creature.

Australopithecus—there are various species of these that have been at times proclaimed as human ancestors. One remains: Australopithecus afarensis, popularly known as the fossil ‘Lucy’. However, detailed studies of the inner ear, skulls and bones have suggested that ‘Lucy’ and her like are not on the way to becoming human. For example, they may have walked more upright than most apes, but not in the human manner. Australopithecus afarensis is very similar to the pygmy chimpanzee.

Homo habilis—there is a growing consensus amongst most paleoanthropologists that this category actually includes bits and pieces of various other types—such as Australopithecus and Homo erectus. It is therefore an ‘invalid taxon’. That is, it never existed as such.

Homo erectus—many remains of this type have been found around the world. They are smaller than the average human today, with an appropriately smaller head (and brain size). However, the brain size is within the range of people today and studies of the middle ear have shown that Homo erectus was just like us. Remains have been found in the same strata and in close proximity to ordinary Homo sapiens, suggesting that they lived together.


""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

71 Posts / 39M
     :   25yrs   :  
Atlantis5

With all due respect for other opinions, Summit's reasoning for the rationalistic approach on the evolution versus creationism debate complies with both mathematical, biological and empirical discoveries mankind has made so far concerning life and the nature is moves in on this planet.

Yet I believe there is a psychological element to be distinguished in this science versus religion matter as well.

Looking at the religious aspect with a psychological approach, it's well understood that many of us accept what we have been told from childhood on or in a period further in life. It's close to classical conditioning and perhaps even closer to (in)voluntary stimulation by the environment in which an individual grows up or lives (e.g movie "The Island". That's where a social and educational element comes into play as well. Consider your own education and what you have been told or taught. Were you or was it possible for you to think differently back then?

Looking at the scientific aspect with a psychological approach, we men (mankind) are biologically adaptive,
learning surival machines. (Fascinating fact is that the same goes for the bacteria that are currently thriving in your intestines. They, too, have adapted to a ever seemingly changing environment.) This cannot be denied.

All scientific findings point to that we indeed do had primate ancestors and that we are the result of a mindboggling chain of random events that took place in the earth's environment. And we are (with all human right) afraid and yet curious of the dark and unknown.

Darwin's insight was as well and eyebrow raiser as an eye opener to many listeners and readers at that time. In analogy, it was the same eyebrow raiser as when word spread that the earth wasn't flat and that falling off was either more difficult than staying on (Newton enstrengthened this 'theory' and so did the first aerospace scientists during the Cold War's Race For Space sub-era).

Science concerns itself (among other fields) about explaining phenomena with the use of the natural logic and patterns that are found with rules that seem to apply in 'our' () part of the galaxy and using that knowledge to solve other and new problems. Ironically, we human beings are experts at both solving and creating problems.

It is theorized that our ancestors interacted with and more or less awarely adapted to shifting circumstances through the profitable, genetic mutations that enabled natural selection. But nature itself has no morality. We created morality to increase general species survival chances. A very effective social thing. We are a part of nature, thus where does that leave morality? Could it be that God, morality, the pope, Darwin, creationism, evolution, politics are all results of chains of events that lead to human curiousity, ignorance and that unquenchable and exciting cranial thirst for getting rid of those annoying questionmarks? Which brings me to a somewhat cognetive psychological part: our relatively increased brainmass and extra 'perks' above other species in
nature, such a choice and ability of abstraction in/and thought. Without your brain, no debate. Although psychology is young, it does however can give a reason for this entire debate, doming this moral issue.

I may be wrong, but consider a homeostatis of the brain. Hunger is a non-regulatory drive, curiousity is perhaps another. Being at ease in one or the other way is what matters. Looking at a gigantic dark void of a discussable unknown origin makes you wonder what's inside. It makes you wonder a whole lot of things. What in God's name is this? () Where does it lead to? What if I jump in? Who put it here? What is it function, what is it's reason... and so on. That's what you seem to be doing most of the time as a human being. Protecting yourself from harm with the use of information. Having certainty (and information) can sometimes mean being at ease.

I know people that feel (increased) happiness when they hear a bird sing. They don't need more than that. Ask them why they feel like that, and they'll reply with "I don't know. I just like it." Yet others can't see why one could become happy from that sound. It sounds differently to them. To them, their body needs something less subjective. A shot of heroine does the trick. Works directly AND they can explain it. Either way, the greeting of (bodyinduced) drugs, like endorfines, is always a pleasurable one, whether you get it from a bird or a heroine needle. Here ends my attempt of analogy with the creationism/evolution debate.

Believing in something may give you this certainty, this happiness. And if you are happy with what you were told in your childhood and/or education and it satisfies you, it's a (or your) piece of cake to enjoy.


"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives you the test first, and the lesson afterwards."

1347 Posts / 42M
     :   23yrs   :  
etherealmeekle

quote:
To be honest, the vast number of pictorial depictions of Jesus being a negro must have escaped my experiences in life for I was under the impression that Christians view Jesus as white, just as they view Adam and Eve as white.



I doubt you would find many pictures that depicted Him as such but that doesn't change the fact that He was born in an Arab country and therefore would have a most likely dark completion (who knows He may have been albino). And in fact the stories of the Bible are all located in Arabic countries.


"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

210 Posts / 41M
     :   33yrs   :  
PeteSmith

Adam and Eve would have been dark skinned I think. Not black or white. This would explain how we get the different skin colours of today.


""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

1347 Posts / 42M
     :   23yrs   :  
etherealmeekle

quote:
All the descendents of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham and Japheth populate the world as the three main divisions of mankind, Mongloid, Negroid and Caucasian, respectively, and of their mixing.


"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

1334 Posts / 44M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

Atlantis5: A very interesting explination. Quite credible and rather true.


"The summit is just a halfway point"

2203 Posts / 66M
     :   49yrs   :  
okcitykid

quote:
okcitykid:
this 'superiority' of the humankind is explained by evolution. And yes, as you mentioned, homeo sapiens is currently the most dominant species, which has some significant control on our global environment.


It has been excused (like making excuses) but not explained.

We go from an ape to a man that builds a space ship and flys to the moon. No other animal on this earth has even come close to this.

It is my observation that we did not come from the same place that all the other animals of this earth who are one with this earth and we are not, but doomed to be its destruction. In the scriptures it says that the Lord breathed into us a living soul. The Lord never did this with any other animal. I'm not sure I know what that means. Except that maybe it just means that authors of Genesis way back when even then realized that we were different.

All over the world there are stories of the flood. They have found evidence of it in Europe but believe it was only in Europe and can't explain all the other stories around the world.

Why is it so difficult to say I don't know, instead of creating a bunch of theories or learning a bunch of theories and call it fact or develop a belief or be taught a belief and call it truth, and expect others to accept this as well.


"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

1334 Posts / 44M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

quote:
Why is it so difficult to say I don't know, instead of creating a bunch of theories or learning a bunch of theories and call it fact or develop a belief or be taught a belief and call it truth, and expect others to accept this as well.


Its difficult to give up, for one simple reason; humans are highly advanced curious species, who require the regular intake of knowledge and stimulis in order to carry out a rather meaningful and/or satisfying life. Without intellectual questioning our conciousness wouldn't exist. I certainly don't expect people to accept theories such as evolution. However I would like them to. Same with anyone including you okcitykid; you have core beliefs, some if not all (apparently) related to creationism.


"The summit is just a halfway point"

71 Posts / 39M
     :   25yrs   :  
Atlantis5

I think the only thing we can all be really sure about, is that no one knows exactly what happened.

About two thousand years ago, something happened in the middle east that appearantly was worthy or special enough to go down into the religious book of the bible.

Yet much like the sighting of Superman, where one says it's a bird, another thinks it's an airplane and another may think Elvis is coming back, it's all in perception and communication. We all know the pattern of storytelling wherein the truth gets blown up or replaced with a more 'spectacular' truth. This is what happens when people communicate with enthusiasm. And if there's something unreliable in this world, it's human communication alright.

Using my freedom of speech, I think of the book of the bible as a novel, the best selling commercial or advertisement of the greatest lucrative organisation mankind has ever spawn, abusing the human mind's ability of believing is something he cannot see. And it's perfect symbiosis, too. Church gives you happiness, the feeling something great is watching over you, and you give the Church happiness with your coins. Coins buying happiness sounds a lot like sniffing up a white line to me. Ever hear anyone say they had enough of happiness?

Economy teaches us that you should locate your business as far away from competion yet as close to the target consumer as possible. Crusades, incineration of competiting barbaric gods... nice way to protect an investment and continental monopoly.

If you ever decide to study economy, make sure you visit main office the new CEO of Catholism in Rome. I'm sure they'll be happy to receive free interns.


"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives you the test first, and the lesson afterwards."
[  Edited by Atlantis5 at   ]

2203 Posts / 66M
     :   49yrs   :  
okcitykid

quote:
Its difficult to give up, for one simple reason; humans are highly advanced curious species, who require the regular intake of knowledge and stimulis in order to carry out a rather meaningful and/or satisfying life. Without intellectual questioning our conciousness wouldn't exist. I certainly don't expect people to accept theories such as evolution. However I would like them to. Same with anyone including you okcitykid; you have core beliefs, some if not all (apparently) related to creationism.


I will agree with that

It could be that there was a great flood in Europe and relatives of the survivors eventually traveled and settled the globe and told a story of the great flood that covered the whole earth.

Religion is a lucrative business. The power of fear - just ask Mr. Bush, he'll tell you.


"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

210 Posts / 41M
     :   33yrs   :  
PeteSmith

Read this for a different perspective of the Creation / Evolution debate:

http://www.apologeticscourses.com/Evol.htm


""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

2203 Posts / 66M
     :   49yrs   :  
okcitykid

I didn't read it all; I looked it over and saved it to my favorites for future reference.

There is a fear of religion and some justification for that fear. This fear is so great for some individuals that it has blinded them of the real world in an attempt to save us all from evil religion. Likewise, on the other side, you have some religious fanatics who are way out there.

I'm a member of the Unitarian Church, but I don't really much enjoy it because you have these individuals in their battle against religion. It’s like alkaline and acid. Two complete opposites but can have the same devastating effect.

I say, let me be free to be free, please don't try to protect me from my freedom.

I came across what you have shared on NPR, and I agree with it. Evolution is a practical theory and should be taught in school as science. But I got a problem with something said elsewhere. Just because they're experts doesn't mean they are always right.


It's like medicine. The Chinese have proven that alternative medicine works. These are traditions that have been passed down generation to generation. Nobody knows why or how they work. The drug companies won't do a study because it’s not profitable. This is the healthcare of the Chinese because they are too poor, and guess what, they are more healthier then anyone in the world. Just because we cannot explain it, doesn't mean it isn't a fact, but science won't believe anything unless it can be explained. While they're looking for explanations they're missing a whole lot of truth being ignored.

I do have one fault with this new education thing. Creationism should not be taught in science. We're pushing them, and there is no need to do that. Keep evolution in science and create a new course, call it higher thoughts and teach creationism under beliefs of the worlds. It doesn't have to be taught in science and it can still be taught in school.

I think we need to learn to be flexible. I am however very much against these people who are suing school boards over this stuff. I think that should fall under frivolous lawsuit.


"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

Creation or Evolution?
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