The right to dress provocatively?

wes: I agree that basically if a person retains more joy from wearing what they like regardless of the outcome of that decision, then they should do that. For me, the effect my pride could have on the ones I care about is far too great a threat for me to care whether or not I am succumbing to fears. I simply would not take a risk.

kooky: Done "arguing". (accidents because of slow people? yeah, okay... so few accidents due to slow people that I have no idea why you would have mentioned it).

YES. YOU CAN GET INTO ACCIDENTS DUE TO VARIOUS REASONS. BUT NOT DRIVING DEFENSIVELY INCREASES THOSE CHANCES.

IT INCREASES THOSE CHANCES.

IT INCREASES THOSE CHANCES.

...

IT INCREASES THOSE CHANCES.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

Slow down there Decuis....your working too hard.

Another kooky.......... I hope you don't get us mixed up...

"Treat everyone as you would want to be treated"

It gets frustrating when you're trying to "type your point across"...

"I'd like to say something profound....."SOMETHING PROFOUND""

*breathing*

I'm all right.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

Very good point wes. I am in favor of electing a new "yell button"....Basically, when you can't "yell" loud enough with caps, you can send a sound clip to go along with your post. Maybe that will get the point across a little better

"He who refuses to seek will never learn"

I like that idea...Decius?

"I'd like to say something profound....."SOMETHING PROFOUND""

I love the fade out... all we need is the screen to wave and we can make it into a flash back.
Also, I think a slow driver would cause more accidents, seeing as how there is road rage, many people will want to exit their car and proceed on kicking the drivers ass.

but staying on subject.. i can see where you are going, and it makes sense

"If the opposite of Pro is Con, then is the opposite of Progress, Congress?"

Mentioned it Decius because you said it " it IS your personal responsibility to drive a little slower and a little more carefully around intersections." And I responded, that accidents oocur even with the precautions such as those.....the same goes with rape. I am not arguing, just sharing my views....no need to get angered

Currently in our local headlines a 51 year old woman was raped in a hospital parking lot around 5 pm, after being in pulled into a van. Later in the week, another woman, (age 50) was sitting in her van and the rapist attempted to get in. She got away fortunately.

Serial rapists often choose victims similiar in age, body type and characteristics.

I've read nothing besides the first post, so what I say might have been said over and over again.

Anyone should have the right to dress however they like. We, as humans, are given free choice and it is our complete decision to do with that what we will.

We have the decision to be able to kill another person. People choose not to because they may be afraid of prison or their morals counteract, but we, as humans, /have the choice/ to kill someone or not.

People who dress provocatively specifically when they will be out alone at night or anywhere by themselves, should understand that they are accepting that someone may or may not attack them because of what they are wearing. They can choose whether or not they feel they are in danger.

Another good point is that people should not wander around terrified of what /may/ happen. We should not force ourselves into a box of constraint and fear just because the possibility of something may happen.

Basically, anyone should be wary of running a yellow light to wearing provocative clothing. These are times where anything can happen. Just yesterday, a man in Memphis was murdered at a bank located /next to a police station/ at 1pm. Three men approached him, asked for his money, he said no. They beat him up and shot him before taking his money and leaving. He survived but is in the ICU.

We make choices as soon as we wake up or step out of our front door and anything can happen because of these choices. We shouldn't go around wondering whether people should way provocative clothing or not, or if such can make someone want to attack them if they weren't wearing it. We should wonder why people choose to attack a woman who is wearing provocative clothing, and if that even really makes a difference.

"\"Like maple syrup, Canada\' evil oozes.\"-<i>Canadian Bacon</i>"

just got this in an email today. sort of thought it fit the topic...

A group of rapists and date rapists in prison were iterviewed on what they look for in a potential victim and here are some interesting facts:

1) The first thing men look for in a potential victim is hairstyle. They are most likely to go after a woman with a ponytail, bun, braid or other hairstyle that can easily be grabbed. They are also likely to go after a woman with long hair. Women with short hair are not common targets.

2) The second thing men look for is clothing. They will look for women who's clothing is easy to remove quickly. Many of them carry scissors around to cut clothing.

3) They also look for women on their cell phone, searching through their purse or doing other activities while walking because they are off guard and can be easily overpowered.

4) The time of day men are most likely to attack and rape a woman is in the early morning, between 5 and 8:30 a.m.

5) The number one place women are abducted from/attacked at is grocery store parking lots. Number two is office parking lots/garages. Number three is public restrooms.

6) The thing about these men is that they are looking to grab a woman and quickly move her to a second location where they don't have to worry about getting caught.

7) Only 2% said they carried weapons because rape carries a 3-5 year sentence but rape with a weapon is 15-20 years.

8) If you put up any kind of a fight at all, they get discouraged because it only takes a minute or two for them to realize that going after you isn't worth it because it will be time-consuming.

9) These men said they would not pick on women who have umbrellas, or other similar objects that can be used from a distance, in their hands. Keys are not a deterrent because you have to get really close to the attacker to use them as a weapon. So, the idea is to convince these guys you're not worth
it.

10) Several defence mechanisms he taught us are: If someone is following behind you on a street or in a garage or with you in an elevator or stairwell, look them in the face and ask them a question, like what time is it, or make general small talk, I can't believe it is so cold out here,
we're in for a bad winter. Now you've seen their face and could identify them in a line-up, you lose appeal as a target.

11) If someone is coming toward you, hold out your hands in front of you and yell Stop or Stay back! Most of the rapists this man talked to said they'd leave a woman alone if she yelled or showed that she would not be afraid to fight back.

Again, they are looking for an EASY target.

12) If you carry pepper spray (this instructor was a huge advocate of it and carries it with him wherever he goes,) yelling I HAVE PEPPER SPRAY and holding it out will be a deterrent.

13) If someone grabs you, you can't beat them with strength but you can by outsmarting them. If you are grabbed around the waist from behind, pinch the attacker either under the arm between the elbow and armpit or in the upper inner thigh -- HARD. One woman in a class this guy taught told him she used the underarm pinch on a guy who was trying to date rape her and was so upset she broke through the skin and tore out muscle strands - the guy needed stitches. Try pinching yourself in those places as hard as you can stand it; it hurts.

14) After the initial hit, always go for the groin. I know from a particularly unfortunate experience that if you slap a guy's parts it is extremely painful. You might think that you'll anger the guy and make him want to hurt you more, but the thing these rapists told our instructor is
that they want a woman who will not cause a lot of trouble. Start causing trouble, and he's out of there.

15) When the guy puts his hands up to you, grab his first two fingers and bend them back as far as possible with as much pressure pushing down on them as possible. The instructor did it to me without using much pressure, and I ended up on my knees and both knuckles cracked audibly.

16) Of course the things we always hear still apply. Always be aware of your surroundings, take someone with you if you can and if you see any odd behaviour, don't dismiss it, go with your instincts. You may feel a little silly at the time, but you'd feel much worse if the guy really was trouble.


no mention of clothing, although hairstyle seems to be a big deal.

"get busy livin' or get busy dyin'..."

It does mention clothing.....that rapists look for clothing that is easy to remove.

In my experience with victims of rape, one has to go with the survivor instinct. In many cases, fighting back and using some of the tactics mentioned may have led to the victim being beaten or murdered. Sometimes the rapists are excited by the fight and struggle.

Survivors of rape often have stories to tell about how they coped and survived. I knew a woman who was held hostage and raped repeatedly for hours. She survived by following her instincts on how to deal with the situation.

These are good tips, I think, and should be passed on to your loved ones.
They don't however, solve our ever-raging argument. It does imply that the ones that carry a pair of scissors might not go for a woman in "fitting jeans", he might go for a women in a skirt or dress, as previously mentioned.
Furthermore, the short hair part does say alot for the Femininity plot.

"I'd like to say something profound....."SOMETHING PROFOUND""

Boy did this thread ever get long. I had no idea...

Kooky, while I respect your experience in this subject and really appreciate that you help these women, some of what you say clashes with the very core of the point I wanted to get across (and debate). It is the fact that you do not seem to acknowledge that a person can take steps, such as dressing more conservatively, to be *safer* (though not completely safe). The disagreement with Decius' driving accident analogy really crystalized it for me, assuming you were serious in your response. While these things CAN happen anywhere, anytime, and to anyone, clearly there IS a correlation between a victim's appearance/behavior/location/time of day and their chances of being attacked (or getting into a car accident). That being the case, concentrating solely on the aggressors may actually be counter-productive in preventing more attacks, which is why I'm passionate about this issue.

Awesome post rollergirl! I'm curious, where did you get that information (source of the email)?

#2 pretty much says it. There's definitely a strong correlation between "provokative" and "easy to remove" clothing.

I think aside from the reasons mentioned, #10 also works because it interrupts the attacker psychologically. If he's psyching himself up, he loses momentum to respond to your question, and may now choose someone else. Also, I saw a show a while ago about this, and they mentioned that when you say something you become more personable and human to the attacker, and it can help diffuse the situation.

For #13-15, clawing or thumbing the eyes is also a very good way to take the guy out, but don't obsess about it too much. If you can't reach the face for whatever reason (guy's pushing you down maybe), go for something else. There's always something you can hit, and usually the groin or the eyes will be available.

Often the posts get taken to other levels of conversation in these forums and may shift from the point originally being made.

My posts simply stated that regardless of how people dress or drive, rapes and accidents still occur. Naturally one should take steps to keep safe....thought that was a given and not in need of restatement.

I am definately not into blaming the victim regardless of dress or other factors. Unfortunately, our society often does try to find fault in the victim. What she did that Provoked a rape.

I am also passionate about the points I am defending here.

An example is the young teen girl I work with. Yes, she made some bad choices getting into a car with boys she did not know well and accepting a drink......but the rapist is ultimately responsible for his actions. Regardless of her carelessness, she did NOT DESERVE IT! She used so poor judgement and learned a difficult lesson.

I also mentioned that women here locally have been attacked in broad daylight and in jeans and a t-shirt. So while you may take steps to dress less provacatively, there are many other factors involved such as those which Rollergirl posted.

I guess I believe that women should be able to celebrate their femininity and wear dresses if they choose.