If there's a god, why is there evil?

Finally, I'd just like to point out that the Big Bang theory was first proposed under the form of the "primeval atom" theory. This theory, was not immediately adopted by the scientific community because the person proposing was none other then a Roman Catholic Abby, Georges Lemaitre. Despite their prejudice, eventually almost every scientist conceded that the evidence was undeniable and that what was renamed later the 'big bang" was the most likely explanation to the birth of the universe.

It is possible to believe in God without believing in the Creation. Hell, you can believe in God without having to refer to an outdated book!

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

"You didn't even read my post - I'm not here to argue with you - I'm out of here. "
Ah man, kid stay! I need someone who believes in God but doesn't believe in the Bible to let these christians see the light!

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

Somethings aren't meant to be complicated. The big bang isn't likely; it is possible. It's pretty ridiculous to believe something magically appeared out of nothing. There's plenty of evidence to give it merit as a potential miracle, but you could argue a million others. It's about as ridiculous to believe that there is an all knowing invisible deity that has always existed. Even before he or she created the rest of the universe. On the subject title of this discussion; I don't know of a God whom is supposed to be all "good". Forgiving maybe.

As for truth; we know nothing. As a race, as a human species. All we know we determine from behavior and evaluation. All we know is how to measure with our own measurements. We create the system, and we build upon it. If that doesn't make sense then email me. The point is, if you are trying to find truth in something man has labelled and created then you will find it. There is no way to prove that any God exists. You can quote all you like, but then there is the trouble of proving the validity of the source. There is just no way. That doesn't make it impossible or improbable. It's just an idea. An idea that you can take as near or as far as you want to. The way the human mind is designed(we have no idea) seems to favor blind faith. It seems to give people strength when they feel absent of worth. The one fact remains that life is completely unbelievable. Simply amazing. My idea has always been that life was created with a sort of miracle. Call this miracle God and give it rules or call it the Big bang, it is still amazing. If you want to believe that you have a greater purpose then lean on God. Otherwise our animal nature is to help ensure the survival of our own species. As we observe the circle of life it is also our duty to preserve it. At least I have always felt that way. That is another topic though. I've always been bitter at man for using his consciousness and awareness to conquer rather than assist life. We think very little of the death of animals when really ignorant "human beings' aka "animals" are far less helpful to the cause of life. Sorry if I rambled. It was my first post, and I was eager to share my thoughts. I love the idea of this forum. Hopefully we can all learn from eachother. Ignorance is so widespread in this world. I could shoot you a theory on why we need it(ignorance), and the different types of races I think roam the planet.(Not separated by color though my friends. By evolution of the mind). Theories are about all we have most of the time. As long as you have reason you can get someone to believe you. You get enough people to believe you, and they'll start quoting your book in forums and convincing the world. There are just good theories and bad theories. Just to be ironic, after you prove there is a God and that there aren't pokadot elephants across the galaxy. Prove we aren't in the matrix. You name it, the list goes on. Ah the beauty of theory.

"And I never wanted to. You have to believe me."

"Somethings aren't meant to be complicated. The big bang isn't likely; it is possible. It's pretty ridiculous to believe something magically appeared out of nothing."
SOMETHING must have appeared out of nothing to for the universe to exist. Even if God created us, he must of been created out of nothing!

"It's about as ridiculous to believe that there is an all knowing invisible deity that has always existed. Even before he or she created the rest of the universe."
No its not. There is evidence leading to the belief of the BIg Bang there is near no evidence to the belief of God. That's why religions stress how important faith is, faith is arbitrary belief, that is nescessary to belief in God because there is no hard evidence.

"As for truth; we know nothing. As a race, as a human species. All we know we determine from behavior and evaluation. All we know is how to measure with our own measurements."
Almost true. However, a scientist named Planck discovered that the universe is pretty much made up of an extremely unit called Planck length. It is a unit made up of different cosmological NATURAL constants, not man made, this unit is currently thought to be the smallest possible.

" The way the human mind is designed(we have no idea) seems to favor blind faith."
I'm afraid to say your right!

" As we observe the circle of life it is also our duty to preserve it."
I disagree, we have no debt to the "'circle of life".

'are far less helpful to the cause of life"
Bleh "cause of life". There is no such thing.

"Just to be ironic, after you prove there is a God and that there aren't pokadot elephants across the galaxy. Prove we aren't in the matrix. You name it, the list goes on. Ah the beauty of theory."
Here you illustrate my point very well

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

"If someone wrote down a fact of historical occurance, and if it was preserved for thousands of years, would it still be a fact? "
Hey I forgot to answer your question, sorry.
The answer is it would not be fact, but it would be "very probably true". It depends on the occurance. Egyptian kings were known to lie in their archives often recording defeats as victories so they would be remembered later.
So books and records cannot be trusted fully, but one must often have to find hard archeological evidence or alternatively another book who agrees with the one you have read.

In the case of our egyptian battle we could check the archives of their enemies to find veracity, if they agree then the egyptians very probably one. If they disagree, then one can try to find archeological evidance to back it up, such as checking out the alleged battleground and try to dig up something. If you find massed egyptian dead, then they probably lost for example.
In the case of the bible, we could check archives. There are no other records of the life of Jesus Christ. No one has written a book on Jesus before his death. And no other book was written on him around the time of the Bible. In fact all books written on him have to reference to the Bible to get any info on his life. We DO have records of other people living at the time, such as ironically enough, Pontius Pilate.
There is also little archeological (which is not to say none) but very little evidence that points to Christ's existence. No cross, no shroud, no coffin nothing.
Now, even IF they manage to prove Christ's existence, there is little NO proof whatsoever and no reference in other contemporary works to the vast majority of the Bible.
No proof for creation (except a vestigial rib in males, you have that for the same reason you have nipples), no proof of any omniscient omnibenvelont omnipotent entity (though by the title of this thread, you see quite a few think it impossible it IS possible, just very flimsy) no proof for any healing, walking on water, turning water to wine or the resurection and no evidence or reasoning behind the predictions of Revelations.

There I hope I have illustrated why something may still be considered true hundreds of years later, and why the Bible does not illustrate the qualities to be considered true for anyone looking into it seriously.

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

"SOMETHING must have appeared out of nothing to for the universe to exist. Even if God created us, he must of been created out of nothing!"

I agree completely. Logically something HAD to come of nothing, but the idea is still ridiculous when you think about it in real terms. It's magic.


"No its not. There is evidence leading to the belief of the BIg Bang there is near no evidence to the belief of God."
My point was that they're both "magic". No one can explain why either one would have or could have occured. Science has accepted the big bang theory because it would explain the aftermath we have observed. I see what you meant though, and I was a little bit off. There is evidence suggesting the big bang. There is nothing suggesting that God exists. Unless you want me to write it on a piece of paper right now and save it for 2000 years. Then in the year 4003 some missionary might find it and use it in court.

"It is a unit made up of different cosmological NATURAL constants, not man made, this unit is currently thought to be the smallest possible."
No. Man doesn't make everything. They label everything. That was my point. Labels are society specific. We observe, label, identify and that's it. Our understanding is based around observation and identification. I'm familiar with Planck and I love him, but there is no "why". We just know that these natural occurances exist. Not why or where they came from. We only have theories for what we do not define.

"I disagree, we have no debt to the "'circle of life".
Bleh "cause of life". There is no such thing."

Cause of life just means the duty any species has of ensuring its survival. And as far as not having any debt to the "circle of life", do you honestly believe that we could exist as the sole species on the planet? I don't, so I think it's probably important that we take care of other forms of "life" too. I want to reply to the other post too, but I have to run to work! Talk to you in a bit.

"And I never wanted to. You have to believe me."

I understand what you're saying Crimson_Saint,

"The answer is it would not be fact, but it would be "very probably true". It depends on the occurance. Egyptian kings were known to lie in their archives often recording defeats as victories so they would be remembered later."

but I think you misunderstood my question. When I said that if someone wrote down a fact of occurance, I meant that what he was writing down was actually true. Like, if the Egyptian king wrote down the truth, that he actually lost his victory, wouldn't it still be true thousands of years from now? I was just trying to state that because when someone writes something that is true, it would still be true for the rest of existence. I hope that clears things up.

I agree with you on many points of your last post Crimson_Saint. We must be able to check corroborating sources, achaeology, history, and what we know about the times and the way people lived to get closer to the truth. We also have to find out if there was a reason for anyone to lie.

I'll be straight forward. I would not be a Christian if there was not very trustworthy evidence for Jesus' claims. I intend to show how all these things (well, not all these things, but some examples) make a case for Christianity. Though my research might take me a while. I hope that doens't bother anyone.

"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

"My point was that they're both "magic". No one can explain why either one would have or could have occured."
"No. Man doesn't make everything. They label everything. That was my point. Labels are society specific. We observe, label, identify and that's it."
I agree completely, thanks for the clarifications

"Cause of life just means the duty any species has of ensuring its survival. And as far as not having any debt to the "circle of life", do you honestly believe that we could exist as the sole species on the planet? I don't, so I think it's probably important that we take care of other forms of "life" too. I want to reply to the other post too, but I have to run to work! Talk to you in a bit."
Well we could debate about this, but we've already gone fairly OT so maybe we should start another topic about it?

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

"I'll be straight forward. I would not be a Christian if there was not very trustworthy evidence for Jesus' claims. I intend to show how all these things (well, not all these things, but some examples) make a case for Christianity. Though my research might take me a while. I hope that doens't bother anyone."
I await impatiently!

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

Why there is evil in the world if God exists, has to one of the most popular questions of all time. I've come to the conclusion that maybe we as humans don't understand things. We assume that evil is bad and if God is there and he/she is good and really does love us then he/she wouldnt let bad things happen. But do we know the whole workings of the world? Maybe Evil has a part to play in the world. Without evil, there would be no Goodness. There would be no way for humans to make choices. Maybe what we call "evil" is needed in the grand scheme of things for a greater purpose, or for other purposes that we just can't think of. By suffering, we learn things. Maybe God wants us to learn things and to be accountable for what we do. Without Evil, we wouldn't know how good Good really is.

"Live and Let Live"

"It does not mean you can't begin to understand them, it means that until you take the step of believing in God, your eyes will remain closed to the"
Alrighty, you still have yet to show any evidence leading to the belief of God though.

"I'm not mad at you, I am merely upset that we could not discuss this topic more intelligently together. I feel that nothing I say or show will ever shed light on anything for you, since you question everything."
Intelligently? I've shown evidence why the Big Bang is true you have shown no evidence why the Bible is true.
I have explained why the Bible is not a very reliable (which is not to say completely untrue) historical document. There are no other contemporary references to Jesus's life and even the book itself was written much after Jesus died.

" I showed you proof of creation and you said, "tit-flesh""
It was to show you the absurdity of your statements. I could have written a book which said the first woman is made from indeed, titfles, why isn't it true? Men don't have breast so its absolute proof. You see the absurdity in my sarcastic statement, why can't you see it in your own?

There is an infinite amount of other explanations why men have one rib less then women.
Your "proof" of creation is only proof that the Creation has some basis in reality. Much like Greek or Nordic legends, it is likely early men noticed that men had one rib less and created speculative legends to explain them.
Your proof does not prove the rest of Creation either, just because one part of the Genesis has a foothold in truth does not mean the whole thing is true. What does men having a rib less have to do with everything being created in seven days?

" It's sad really. The portions of the Bible that are symbolic, you want to see literally...they just aren't literal."
How is one to know when it is symbolic or not? At the time it was written, people trully believed these sort of creation legends quite litteraly. If you look at Chinese or Egyptian legends, both have the entire universe born of an egg. This seems quite absurd today, but at the time it was a litteral explanation of their surroundings.
Why would it be symbolic for one people (the Jews) and yet litteral for just about every other culture around the time.

"Women are not looked down upon in the Bible because they didn't vote or own land or speak inpublic or any other argument you throw out."
Alright I'm sorry, but that is completely sexist.

"BOTH MAN AND THE WOMAN! It can't be more clear than God had a role for both genders, and women's role was merely different not worse."
So your showing that for some laws women had equal rights? Yes, but that doesn't deny the fact that as a rule of thumb within the bible, the woman is portrayed as incapable of making decisions, not worth expressing her opinion and less valuable then men.

"I am not backing away because of lack of ammunition for my cause. It is because of the total denial in front of me...my only weapon in debate now is prayer. You are not open to answers from me or any other Christian, so I must leave this in God's hands. I will continue to pray for you and myself...frankly I think both of us could use all the help we can get. I enjoyed the majority of this discussion, and hope you find something to believe in."
I can't believe this, you have no ammunition. You have shown no evidence except the claim that because men have one less rib obviously the world was created in seven days!

Next time you enter a debate, show evidence damnit. I admit I was getting a insulting towards the end, but frankly you never answer my points or find an alternative explanation to the evidence for the big bang (I provide alternative, more probable explanations to your evidence).
You only spoke about semantics and seemingly used faith as an argument even though by definition it backs my claim. That there is no rational reason to believe God.
You also found flimsy explanations as to why the laws of the old testament are no longer valid. Parts of the old testament are invalid now, yes, but only those laws concerning death. Most of the old testament, be it slave trading, polygamy, intolerance, racism (jewish superiority) and sexism is never specificaly challenged by Christ.
Youyou spoke of the symbolism of the bible. What could be less symbolic then this passage " it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire"

Finally I'd like to end my post with a statement about debates why I think Strongclad understood. In a debate, if one wants to prove something exists, one must present strong evidence that lead to the belief that that thing exists. To DISPROVE you need to show why the evidence presented is faulty. To show that evidence is faulty, I must provide an alternative and prefereably more likely explanation to that evidence (I have done this).

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

" So lets both agree that each others beliefs, in our own minds, are obsurd...mine of yours and you of my beliefs."
No I will not. Mine beliefs are based on hard, tangible, objective and undeniable evidence. That does not mean my beliefs are unfallible, but it means that I WILL change my beliefs if equaly hard, tangible, objective and undeniable evidence is presented. There.

"I'm sorry if this discussion went poorly for you. You are looking for statistics and tangible truth. Not every truth is tangible."
If the truth is not tangible, then it is not proven. If it is not proven, it *may* be true, but it is to be considered false until proven otherwise.
I will not believe in an intangible "truth" because it would then be no more then an arbitrary belief and I will not do this. Because of 2 reasons :
1 I do not believe arbitrarily. I believe what according to the evidence is likely.
2 If I believe in one arbitrary belief, why shouldn't I believe in another? I could believe in islam, judaism, hinduism or hell even helenism!

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

"I will not debate any more for the reasons I have stated."
" It is because of the total denial in front of me..."
Denial? Denial of what? Of the subjective proof? You have plenty of subjective proof yes, but you should know that subjective proof has no place in debate.
Or do you mean denial of your 1 piece of objective proof you have presented? That because 1/2 a sentence of the bible (the bible implies Adam has 1 rib less) is true automatically, the entire all of Creation is true?? That is not logic, that is believing what you want to believe.

If anything, you are in denial. Denial of hard facts, facts such as the expanding universe, the background radiation of space.

Finally, if you want to have an arbitrary belief who is not based on any tangible objective truth. You could believe in islam, hinduism, judaism or hell, even helenism and the belief would be just as intangible evidence and thus be an intangible "truth".

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

Sorry I misread.. END (for real this time )

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

"You didn't even read my post - I'm not here to argue with you - I'm out of here. "
Ah man, kid stay! I need someone who believes in God but doesn't believe in the Bible to let these christians see the light!"

http://bible.gospelcom.net/

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Timothy does not call it the word of God. The word of God is a phrase coined by Jesus, if you have any intelligence at all, you know he was not talking about the bible.

The bible is a (SMALL) collection of books from a (LIBRARY) of books, most of which had been destroyed and whatever else was left, a group of people got together and decided (this is the word of God/this is not the word of God). Throwing out hundreds of books. And who are they that we to this day believe them? What is now called the bible, considered by many (The Word of God), has brought on bitter debates that cannot be won. Some have died, went to prison, been shunned by loved ones, etc. In the bible you will find hundreds of contradictions that people will fight over. Maybe if we was to realize that it is not the word of God, we would stop fighting. In the bible there are literally hundreds of messages about god and people. In there are stories about real life in a religious context without judgment or condemnation that Hollywood could never reproduce. But I'm here to tell you its just PAPER. If the bible is the word of God, why has it ended? Did God stop talking to us? I'm not going to argue over it. But you're not all going to gang up on Crimson Saint either.

The Word of God is within all who believe in God. You will not find it on a piece of paper. And if that's where you're looking, you're looking in the wrong place. THE BIBLE JUST SIMPLY HELPS US UNDERSTAND WHAT IS ALREADY INSIDE US.

Roger Harkness, The Okcitykid, Oklahoma City, OK Okcitykid@okcitykid.us

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."