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If there's a god, why is there evil? - Page 14

User Thread
 61yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
imaginery as in "not real" but believed - it could be, I believe that. But the imaginery would have to work with something physical in order for there to be a reaction.

The great Kahunas had a practice called a death prayer. Anthropologists had documented this in their journals before the Catholic church outlawed it. But a Great Kahuna could pray someone to their death. Theory is that when a person dies, they leave behind a shadow. This shadow is the memory of this person's life. The shadow was invisible and had no power unto itself. A Kahuna could control these shadows through prayer, they would send these shadows to kill people. The fact that these things did occur can be found in historical journals. But did it really happen the way the Kuhuna's thought that it did?

http://www.doyletics.com/_arj1/kahunama.htm

I read this book years ago, very interesting book.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Angel Of Death is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
ok, coming back to the essence of the question, first lets agree on the basic thing, 'if there is 'evil' in the world, that does not mean that God is evil or non existant-due to us being given free will' ?

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"I'll heal ur woundz I'll set u free, I m jesus christ on xtacy"
 61yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Someone explained to me elsewhere that God doesn't get involved because we do have free will. That could be why Jesus and others are sent to teach us. If God did everything, then why would we have to be taught anything. Part of God's perfection is giving us the freedom we have.

Evil however is not perfect, but the oposit of, so it takes our free will from us.

At this juncture, I am a little confused. If God good and gives us free will and evil is bad and takes it. Who are we should we fall into an evil devious trap and who will save us?

But I don't think God is evil or non existant.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that heyjme1 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Ok. Lets assume God is neither evil nor good. Let us assume 'He' is simply nature or the laws of nature. Thus we have a system where everyone is abiding to the laws of nature. Now our free will is given to us if u like by being a composite, albeit tiny, of a larger equation which changes through time. We have parameters that can change this equation, some larger than others, and I guess our free will would be the extent to which we maximise these. Now it could be the intent when the formula was formed earlier was to have certain markings that will be there or lay out. I.e. there is room for a Jesus to spring up. Or it could, of course, be a formula that was not formulated and then there is no end and no beginning in the absolute sense...like a continuous circle...u could define 12:00 hrs as start and finish on a clockface but then 3:00 is equally as valid.

One thing that has just cropped up also is that time may also be flowing backwards. When you conceive of a device often you trace back the steps so lets say the aim is to get a house..u would back engineer so then you would say where, what bricks, how many rooms right down to laying a carpet. So it could be the future somehow affects the past?

Anyway I think my point is the laws are there. We see good and evil but everyones opinion is different. But the interesting thing is we do seem to evolve better and quicker with good. But the reason for this I think though is that if u turn bad emotions like fear, hate and envy into hope, love and respect you create, someone will need to check this LOL, positive chemical reactions like endorphines which stimulate happy thoughts and maximise self achievement. Now evil I feel is just a concept, like good, but I take good and there is just less good. And I think it could be related to the way we think, which is related to chemicals, but the good is really just positive education. Evil is being physically weak to circumstance and rejecting positive education. I guess if you are a weak person and very intelligent then you need to start recognising that positive thought is a key to happiness, which in my view promotes a better society all round.

Hope this makes sense and sort of vaguely answers the question,

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""No words""
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that patape is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
(skipped thro the thread so i dont know how relevant) but i dont get it.. of course god (from standard defintions) ciuld hae made us with cabablilty not of whats considered evil! i mean wouldnt we do just fine without it!?? it wouldnt violate our free will bercauee we wouldnt mind that option to be canceled out.. jsut like we cant jump to the moon.. i dont blame god for not giving mr free will to jump to moon.. so how can you say its becasue of free will that evil comes fromus is why god doesnt prevnt it.. thats purioos logic.. could also make it so we everything doesnt ecpierecn what we consider "evil"


on a nother note its funny h ho when we think of our 'good' moral instincts we thnik there must be a god when we think of our 'bad'; instincts we think there isnt one (why couldnt it be vise versa or dif) oh yea becasue of the defniotion of common god.. but also i thnik just from feeling we have intrstinga..

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"no quote until i copyright it.."
 61yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Ok. Lets assume God is neither evil nor good. Let us assume 'He' is simply nature or the laws of nature. Thus we have a system where everyone is abiding to the laws of nature. Now our free will is given to us if u like by being a composite, albeit tiny, of a larger equation which changes through time. We have parameters that can change this equation, some larger than others, and I guess our free will would be the extent to which we maximise these. Now it could be the intent when the formula was formed earlier was to have certain markings that will be there or lay out. I.e. there is room for a Jesus to spring up. Or it could, of course, be a formula that was not formulated and then there is no end and no beginning in the absolute sense...like a continuous circle...u could define 12:00 hrs as start and finish on a clockface but then 3:00 is equally as valid.


I have also considered this several years ago and do believe that there is a law (I compare it to a computer program that has been put in place that is intertwined into all of creation). But I do not think that this is God, but just a creation of God.

Evil is living darkness, it is the light that went out and became evil. God did not creat it persay, but created that which became it of its own free will. It exists, don't know much more about it then that.

There is a God that watches over its creation, other then sending messengers, doesn't otherwise get that involved. That's about as much as I know about that.


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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Angel Of Death is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
positive thought is a key to happiness,

I agree. Everyone associates happiness with objects, with having this and acheiving that, making it seem that it is really hard to get it. But the thing is, beleive me you can be happy anytime you want, after all, half of it(probably more) is just chemical reactions. off topic anyway, so I think Ill stop here

okcitykid, the thing is, beleiving in evil is the same as beleiving in a god(i.e some good guy sitting up there judging all of us), and the problem is 'belief'. Thats all you have to hold onto, thats why I 'belive', in neither. I believe in a different sort of God, largly because I have experianced it, perhaps my opinions about the devil will change if I get some hint of proof.

Why do you believe in evil anyway. does it mostly have to do with that guy who went really off path?

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"I'll heal ur woundz I'll set u free, I m jesus christ on xtacy"
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that heyjme1 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
What I am tending to sense is a kind of petty defense of religion and then an equally petty defense of science. Is it possible, per chance, that they actually help us all out. I back neither fully...I want truth. So lets see where this can get us?

Right as an example...I've stated there could be an equation and if u look carefully I say that tiem could go forwards, backwards, or cyclically in it....I simply don't know! But only a fool goes for dogma and says I am right. Its simply stupid to aim for perfection: we are finite and we know more exists than us...otherwise why come to a fourm?

Now the truth is look at all the unanswered questions...what is spirit? how many dimensions are ther? can you create something out of nothing. Typically science stops here and says..leave it to the religions or read a book on philosophy. Ok...wise. But just because the question is too difficult does not mean its not worth asking. When I use the word equation I have no better words than model or theory etc., there just words. This does not mean they are scientific.

I'm quite happy considering the idea of spirit, what it is and how it could fit in. I'm not going to say its just a word...the questions there so I'll give it some thought...why can't it be another dimension. Just because I cant see it or it doesnt fit with models now...so what? Someone somewhere may open my eyes. Understanding this will help actually gather understanding of the greater reality (whatever that is!) he he

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""No words""
 61yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Concerning my belief in God, I have my experiences also, expressed elswhere.

Ofcourse, I really don't know what God is, I just VERY strongly believe in one. Yet is just a belief. I couldn't prove it to anyone. This belief is faith.

quote:
Why do you believe in evil anyway. does it mostly have to do with that guy who went really off path?




Ya - it probebly is, because I think about that a lot whenever something evil happens in this world.

The Idea of Saten and hell however is just to rediculas, but there is something.

I believe in Spirt also and would agree that it would be another demension.

But don't be fooled into believing that we have to understand something before we can believe in it. BUT on the other side of that coin, don't accept dogma just to say you believe.

I have my own religion and I probebly always will. Never will I ever accept someone elses interpretation of the light. I'll figure it out on my own. Because my little mind is not big enough to comprehend it all, I'll accept an idea from here and an idea from there, but always testing to see how it sets inside my heart, if it leaves a bitter taste, I throw the idea out.

But even then, though it is good that we seek to know. The knowing does not bring us closer to it. What brings us closer to it is our deeds. Do we feed the poor, care for the sick? Are we good to the earth and do we treat our niegbor fairly? This is religion, and regardless of what you may have discovered, unless you do these things, you are not right. All the knowledge in the world will not make you right. You won't be right until you do the right things.


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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that heyjme1 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Some good points there. I think the way I tackle things is on a higher level at the moment than helping a person out on the street. Yes, I could and would call that selfish while I sit here and spout on my computer. Selflessness is a very virtuous thing. You see this battle confines within me, what to do, when and where, for the general better. And I will never get a perfect solution...but I can aim to excel. Now when I say me, you see, I'm talking about my natural gifts added to all that education I have recieved...all that information I have gotten. If I was raised badly and treated badly, thought that bad was good and vice versa I would probably suggest that I would turn out in our eyes evil. And this is where I think the term evil derives.

However to get out of this 'all relative' idea I do have a way out. I heard somewhere if a baby does not receive enough attention emotionally at birth there is a stronger chance that baby will die. Check it, I havn't been able to find this. Now I suggest you could call this love-like a mother's love for her baby. If this is true then I really do believe that good is that which makes happy thoughts and these, surely, make us more able to help others...so thats where I have my trust.

But then if you have less intelligent and/or less wise people they need advice in this world and religions help, this could be argued, to maximise pleasure of the greater good. Unfortunately they get misinturpreted. But my advice for anyone who really doesnt know an answer is to consult a human (i.e. for feedback) who is: wise, intelligent, virtuous and truly happy (a magical ingredient?) and hence good. Then they should get good advice.

Shining happy people holding hands LOL

I talk here without any spiritual guidance. I cant fit it in because I cant way up any probabilities of its existence so I am not going to. What I will say is this: The whole is more than the sum of its parts....But that is becuase we only see some of its parts !

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""No words""
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Forbidden Psalm is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
god made man man created evil .god is all good but gave the people total freedom of choice wether to believe in him or to find another good and due to this choice of man and with ignorance of the real meaning of freedom evil arised. and by the way evil exists before man and even wen made was created evil tempted adam and eve so the concept of evil itself exists before man

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"" I CAME, I SAW, I CONQUERED""
 32yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Cynic-Al is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
that is the problem, if god was the only thing that existed before creation, and he created everything, then he must have created the evil that tempted adam and eve.
someone earlier mentioned balance, but if god made everything, he could have made balance unneccesary. people say if there was no evil we would not recognise good. but i'm all for not recognising good despuite being surrounded by it, if it means that there is no evil in the world. why is it neccessary to recognise good? its not like love would not exist, we would like everybody, but others we feel differently about, love them. i see no reason for hate to exist for that to occur.

there are far to many holes in any religious answer, and all of their arguements are circular.

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"So Schrodinger's Cat is not only neither dead nor alive, but might also be sexually aroused by elbows and peanut butter?"
 44yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
God did not "create" evil. He created people with the capacity to do good and to do evil. This is fundamental to the concept of free will. So, when God created us he gave us a choice to love him and follow him or to disobey him. God could have made us with no choice but to love Him. But then we wouldn't really be free, would we.

As soon as we are given a choice, there is always the possiblity that we will make the "wrong" choice. I think concepts like love and goodness are meaningless unless you can reference or compare them against their opposites, e.g hate and evil. How can you really appreciate how good first class travel is if you have only ever travelled first class?

Before God made us, He made a way to repair the consequences of our wrong choices.

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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 32yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Cynic-Al is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
the concepts of love and goodness are useless unless you can compare them with their opposites. pray tell me why it is neccessary for them to be useful?
why is it better to have the concepts of love and goodness, than not to have evil?
we would still have free will to do what we wanted, its just that we would not have the capacity to choose evil. does anyone see that as a problem? would you not prefer to have no "concept" of love, yet still have the reality, but no-one be able to come up with the concepts of theft or murder, and put them into reality?

if god is truly omnipotent, then it would not be impossible for him. i lay no claim to understanding the mysterious ways of god, but i still think balance was the biggest cock-up ever made.

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"So Schrodinger's Cat is not only neither dead nor alive, but might also be sexually aroused by elbows and peanut butter?"
 61yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
How can you have free will if you only have one choice? Then there is no free will or choice, we just exist to do the right thing. Lovely - but that's not they way it is.

The person who created this thread long, long ago had a question. If there is a God, why is there evil? I know there's a God, and I believe God is good, but I also know that there is evil.

If you told me that you didn't know the answer, I'd pin a medal on your chest for being so brave and honest. This is a difficult question where simple are so easily disproved.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
If there's a god, why is there evil? - Page 14
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