Kittens are little ninjas in PJ's - brann22
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Excerp: America is not a Christian Nation - Page 5

User Thread
 59yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that TheIrishPagan is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
"Tell that to Abraham Lincoln and all freed slaves!'

Lincoln was a racist, what else would you call a man who attempted to pass laws in his home state excluding free blacks? He was politically motivated to abolish slavery on at least two counts
1. It would remove support from abolitionist England and France for the South. This was accomplished with the Emancipation Proclamation, which in fact did not free slaves. Those two countries immediately removed all support for the South when the Proclamation was made public.
2. Growing Abolitionist Sentiment among the Voting public.
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"The Christian part was apparent as the elected representatives would obviously be heavily Christian.'

Andrew Jackson, as President wrote in a letter explaining his refusal to proclaim a national day of prayer: 'I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation from the political concerns of the General Government.'

Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to Peter Carr (1787) "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." And in a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely (1819) he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."
John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, wrote, "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" and in his "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1788) he wrote, ' . . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

In 1785, James Madison, called the Father of the Constitution, wrote in his 'Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments': "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." AND "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Benjamin Franklin's Autobiography states: 'My parents had given me betimes religions impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.' And in Dr. Priestley's Autobiography (an intimate friend of Franklin) he wrote of him: "It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers"

George Washinton, in a 1792 letter to Sir Edward Newenham wrote: 'Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.' Also, though Church going, he never once took Communion.
Need more examples?
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'However, they were smart enough not to create a system that would legally elevate any one dogma.'

And that elevation is exactly what has happened, with government-supported religious references, mottos, and Xian prayer today.
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"I'm sorry but I find this belief on your part ridiculous and somewhat bigoted. You don't see radical Xians moving in mass into Muslim dominated communities, like the ones in Michigan. Even in light of the fact that those Muslim Americans used their local government to get their daily prayers played over a loud speaker throughout the city.'

Firstly, this is a largely Muslim community, not exclusively Muslim, and they also are a larger segment of the religious community than we, and therefor enjoy a superior monetary and legal base. Also, please see http://headlines.agapepress.org/archive/7/202004g.asp. Secondly, with the recent political atmosphere concerning that faith overseas, and the physical attacks here just after 9/11, no one is going to bother them. And lastly, the Muslim faith simply does not have the miasma of 'human sacrifice', 'devil worshiping', and 'witchcraft' attached to it, as it has so wrongly been associated with us. I think discussing the issue of a Wiccan community with the more radical of your fellow congregates might be revealing.
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"I disagree - it appeared when human secularists found strength in numbers and used the Courts to mandate their own unconstitutional religious views because they knew they didn't have the numbers to get any such changes passed through the Congress.'

Then would you mind sharing your opinion as to why our original motto was 'E Pluribus Unum' and our original Pledge of Allegiance did not contain '...under God'? Christians used their greater numbers, starting in the early 1830's, to accomplish their agenda, since your opposition does not have those numbers, we must resort to the legal system. Also, one subject that seems to be thrown to the wayside is that many of those 'secular humanists' you speak of, are Christians themselves.
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"There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that prohibits the government from supporting religion with or without taxpayer dollars. And you are now arguing that if someone says a 'religious' word it ceases to be speech? And such people who like to use religious words don't have the same right to free speech as people who like to use secular humanistic words? Wow!'

The First Amendment states, 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ...', it has done just that, with the Coinage Act, and our Pledge. Doing this, they have established Christianity as the State Religion. And now who is twisting words? I make no reference to 'someone', my comments clearly state 'government'.
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We still await your quotes for your 'the Founders also recognized Jesus as Lord in the constitution' theory.


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"Oops, it appears I have run over your dogma with my karma."
 37yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that niners69sgirl is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
america was populated by the native americans and they r not christians they were pagans until the idiots of other countries came along took thier land or got it unfairly brutily beat n raped and pilaged n then made them christian so like the guy who wrote that essay can bite one

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"sonrisa siesta y fiesta ...if ya wanna know don't be afraid to ask i only bite on days that end in y"
 59yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that TheIrishPagan is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
We are discussing the American Government, not the first settlers, my grandfather's people, on this continent. Read the whole thread before you make comments like that, child.

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"Oops, it appears I have run over your dogma with my karma."
 37yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that niners69sgirl is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
i did read it and america wasn't founded by christian ppl the native american's were here long before the government they deserve the credit for finding america just because they didn't have a type of government doesn't mean ne thing and just so you know its my grandfathers ppl too

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"sonrisa siesta y fiesta ...if ya wanna know don't be afraid to ask i only bite on days that end in y"
 59yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that TheIrishPagan is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I see the source of the confusion now. No one is saying that the 1st Nations people were not here first, or that there were no atrocities committed against them. In fact, there is a short debate centred on the 1st Nations people within this thread.

We are discussing the forming of the United States government, the founding documents of the United States, those men who created those documents, and how it affects secular/religious government today. May I ask if you have read the entire thread, or only this page please?

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"Oops, it appears I have run over your dogma with my karma."
 37yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that niners69sgirl is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
well i got about half way through the first two pages n commented
i didn' teven read this page til i noticed there was a new post n i'm irish too

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"sonrisa siesta y fiesta ...if ya wanna know don't be afraid to ask i only bite on days that end in y"
 37yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that niners69sgirl is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
and german and welsh and four different native americans...i remind me of a mixed drink

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"sonrisa siesta y fiesta ...if ya wanna know don't be afraid to ask i only bite on days that end in y"
 59yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that TheIrishPagan is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Éire go brách Lass!

Mixed Irish and 1st Nations myself. Maybe why I don't drink anymore. I have traced my European ancestors all the way to Antrim Co, Ireland, and my paternal GGGGrandmother survived the Trail of Tears and grew up in Oklahoma. I was on a genealogy kick a few years ago.

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"Oops, it appears I have run over your dogma with my karma."
 37yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that niners69sgirl is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
my dad's dad has had that kick his hole life lol iknow my family came over on slave ships even got to see some ggggggfamily ppls on the wall at ellis isldand when i was in 10th grade lol and there's lots of places in westvirginia named after my family n not just the williams but the calhouns too lol and my moms grand ma was half black bear i used her for a third grade interview that i'd still have if it wasn't for my house fire the 27th of december back in 99

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"sonrisa siesta y fiesta ...if ya wanna know don't be afraid to ask i only bite on days that end in y"
 37yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that niners69sgirl is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
that woman was cool she was the best cook ever plus she had all grey hair on her head except for one bear paw thatwas black on the back by her neck it was neat lol n she always had jelly beans for me lol

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"sonrisa siesta y fiesta ...if ya wanna know don't be afraid to ask i only bite on days that end in y"
 59yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that TheIrishPagan is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
To get back on topic, some have mentioned a Christian Majority in their argument for government-supported religion. I have just come across an interesting fact. Only four of the states contain references to God in their state mottos, and none contain religious symbology in their state flags. Nor were any of these states of the original thirteen, note the dates of statehood in parenthesis.

Arizona (Feb. 14, 1912, 48th)- 'Ditat Deus" or "God Enriches'
Florida (March 3, 1845, 27th) – 'In God We Trust' Identical to the revised national motto
Ohio (March 1, 1803, 17th) - "With God, All Things Are Possible."
South Dakota (Nov. 2, 1889, 39/40th) - "Under God, The People Rule."

Also, other than the 1863 Coinage Act, all legislation to add God to our nation occurred in the 1950's.
1863 – Coinage Act replaces original motto of 'E Pluribus Unum' on coins.
1954 – 'under God' added to our Pledge of Allegiance.
1956 – National Motto officially changed to 'In God We Trust'

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"Oops, it appears I have run over your dogma with my karma."
 56yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that Patrish is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Let's look at the world today...let's look at the hypocrisy of 'Political Correctness' shall we?

We cannot be racist..correct?
We must give correct names in order to NOT offend...correct?

Indian is Native American, Blacks are African american, the the retarded are mentally challenged, the rights are fought for in every jurisdiction...
BUT ONE!!

Who will fight for the freedom of Christian worship?

We have the ACLU in Fl fighting to remove nativity scenes, but we allow other 'foreign' celebrations to be given respect. We have Kwanzaa and we can tell our fellow americans to have a good kwanzaa, and we have hanukkah, and we can tell our Judiac friends, have a gr8 Hanukkah, and we have pagans with huge signs hanging in NY.

We have symbols for every other religion held as sacred...but NOT FOR THE CHRISTIAN.
WHO makes up the majority does not matter...but equality for all does.

IF an satanist wishes to put up satanic symbols...they are up. And I venture to suggest, they are more than welcome..
MOST do not even know the PEACE SIGN is satanic. IT symbolizes the cross upside and broken as a mockery to Christ.

However...put up anything christian and be called a bigot, or a small minded zealot. How is this justice??

Dont dare defend your faith, or be cited as a racist.
Angelfire is quite keen on this himself. I could jump in the mud with him, and I could easily practice the same retorts...O how I could cut him a new one. BUT I dont. I grin instead..

Anyway...how come we cannot have Christmas anymore??
Why the sparkle season, or season's greetings??

80% of Americans are christian.

So why is it ok for the whiners to get the most oil, but not all??

Still trying to figure the fairness of all of that crap.

BTW..my grandparents came from ireland.

Pog Mo Thoing.

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"Life is full of lemons, and the lemonade is sweet."
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Angelfire is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
You are allowed to practice your religion. You are allowed to wear a cross.

You are NOT allowed to justify government policy by religion.

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"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"
 59yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that TheIrishPagan is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
'Let's look at the world today...let's look at the hypocrisy of 'Political Correctness' shall we?'

Christians, acting as 'Civil Rights' advocates, instigated this agenda.
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'Who will fight for the freedom of Christian worship?'

Are you being harassed in your Churches and homes, and are you required to remove your symbology from those places? Are your television and radio networks and programs under legal attack and censure? Are Christians persecuted, oppressed and attacked in this nation's communities? Are Christians ostracized within those communities for displaying their symbology on their front lawns? How is removing government sanctioned and taxpayer-supported mottos, prayers, monuments and references from only government and public property an attack on Christianity? Those who make such claims as that above in the quotes, have no justification to do so.
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'IT symbolizes the cross upside and broken as a mockery to Christ.'

The inverted cross was originally known as Peter's Cross, as he wished to be crucified upside down, so as to not emulate the Christ in any fashion. This is one reason Satanists have taken over that symbol, so as to not be associated with Christianity in any way. The Peace Symbol was originally known as Nero's Cross, a symbol he used to signify his belief that world peace could be accomplished without Christianity. As with the inverted cross, it's original meanings were subjugated to linguistic and cultural shift over time, and in the case of the Peace Symbol, the 'Hippie Movement' concentrated on the world peace aspect, with no particular religion in charge. What the meaning of that particular symbol intends today is what is important.

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"Oops, it appears I have run over your dogma with my karma."
 59yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that TheIrishPagan is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Concerning the issue of Christian Symbology, there is nothing stopping you from displaying Nativity Scenes on your personal or Church property, or indeed the popular 'Mary on a Half Shell' year round. There are no laws that prohibit you from saying Merry Christmas to your neighbors, or hanging signage with that proclamation from your homes and religious edifices. You cry foul at loosing your government and taxpayer-supported religious mottos, monuments, and prayer, and claim persecution without any foundation for that statement. It is clear that our Founding Fathers intended our government not to sponsor or support ANY religion, but have also left provisions to protect ALL religions, but only within the private sector. What denominations they followed simply does not matter in this issue. What is important are their intentions, laid down in this Nation's Founding Legal Documents.

In my opinion, any religious displays or support have no business whatsoever on government and public property, nor in government and public institutions or schools. None should be displayed at any time, from any religion. If the reaction of some non-Christians seems to be overly vehement, it is due to the persecutions and oppressions WE have faced in this country, particularly during the last century. And remember, it is your fellow Christians who have instigated this change, and carry on the struggle for the complete secularization of American Government.

If Christians require their symbols and monuments on government/public property, there is nothing stopping you from purchasing and maintaining property NEAR those areas. As long as the federal, state, or local government does not supply funds, maintenance, labor, or materials for such a project, then there is no moral need, or indeed legal recourse, for those of us who wish to see the secularization of American Government to interfere.

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"Oops, it appears I have run over your dogma with my karma."
Excerp: America is not a Christian Nation - Page 5
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