Misrepresentation - Page 4

okcitykid said:

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I don't understand this. If I had never heard the story of Jesus I would believe in eternal life in the hereafter. Even knowing about Jesus, even if I had no evidence I would still believe he was immortal and had gone to the hereafter. The story of his resurrection makes no difference to me in believing in the hereafter or immortality.

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I understand what you're saying. What difference would Jesus' ressurection make if you believe in immortality and Heaven anyway?

But I'm sure that this is not what the author was meaning when he wrote this in his article.

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if Jesus did not rise, our faith is futile and we fall back into despair. How credible, then, is the NT witness to the resurrection of Jesus?

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To understand what he is saying here, we must realise that there is one central belief to the Christian faith that must be true, and if it isn't true, our faith is futile and Christianity will crumble. That central belief is that Jesus was a real man, that was sinless (meaning that he would be a perfect sacrifice for sin, pleasing to God), was crucified, died, and proved he was the Messiah by rising from the dead. Those who believe these things -- according to the Bible -- and believe in Christ, will be saved on that final judgement day. And those who don't will be turned away. These are the basic tenets of the Christian faith.

Now, if Christ didn't rise from the dead -- as the sacrifice for our sins -- our faith is futile and we are still stuck in our sins. The Jews spent many years atoning for their sins with sacrifice after sacrifice, and knew of the coming of the Messiah who would take care of sin once and for all. If Jesus isn't that Messiah, then none of our sins are atoned for.

So, according to Christian belief, if someone doesn't believe Christ has sacrificed himself for our sins, it doesn't matter if they believe in immortality or the afterlife or not. Christ said he was the only way to God and Heaven. I guess you could say there's a package deal and only one way to get to Heaven.

After understanding these claims of the Christian faith, you can now understand why the author of the article said: "How credible, then, is the NT witness to the resurrection of Jesus?"

All we know about Jesus is what has been written about him. There are many other writings about Jesus -- besides the Bible -- that came about after his death that give portrayal of who he was. And in this article, the author tries to show why the New Testament, and other Christian writings are credible and can be trusted as telling the truth. By showing that Jesus was an actual man in History who did the things that were written about him, we can show that the Christian faith is a reasonable, logical, historical faith and needs to be taken seriously for the destination of one's soul.

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Even Paul whom you believe in said that we see things through a smokey glass but will see things clearly when we are taken up. Jesus tells the story about the seperation of the goats and sheep. Remember, both of them were wrong. They both thought something and discovered something different.

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I don't know if I'm fully understanding you here.

The passage you are using about Paul comes from 1 Corinthians 13:12:

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Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

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I think if you read all of Chapter 13, you will get a better idea of what Paul is saying here. The subject of this whole chapter is the "importance" of Love. He is not talking about attaining knowledge, or even knowlege of God here. This is a message that he is writing specifically to the Corinthians to address a certain issue in the church there (no one writes without a reason), and you must understand it in that specific context.

And that also goes the same for Matthew 25: 31-46, where you're siting Jesus' parable about the sheep and the goats. This parable is in line with the basic tenets of the Christian faith as I listed above. Jesus was saying that those who trusted and followed him (the sheep) would get there place along side him in heaven, and those who didn't (the goats) would find there place in eternal Hell. Check out this parable also.

I don't think I'm understanding this statement fully.

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Remember, both of them were wrong. They both thought something and discovered something different.

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I hope you didn't take offence at me neither. I know I come off as pretty exclusive.

Jesus was telling a parable about the judgement, when the chaff is burnt away. The goats were those who were sure to enter the kingdom of heaven and were turned away, when Jesus told them why, they were puzzled, they had believed they had done all these things. The sheep however were told to enter, they could not believe it, they did not think they were worthy, Jesus explained to them why they were. They still did not understand, so he explained it further. When you fed the least of mine when they were hungry, you fed me when I was hungry. I was using this to explain that we really don't know, however the intent of the parable had a much higher purpose than that.

The teaching that we are saved by Grace is relatively a new teaching. In all the history of the Christian church, this teaching only covers just the last couple hundred years (more or less). However - Paul clearly taught this, why it has taken so long to be realized is a mystery.

I don't believe in the teaching of grace. Maybe it has something to do with my father who so eagerly scarfed it up.

I do believe in Jesus - I don't believe he is God or a third of God, etc. Jesus said, these things and greater shall you do, I believe that. Jesus was a great man with a great teaching, our older brother. The first, who was created by God, we are the second, and will someday come together as one as the younger brother of Jesus, or that may have already happened, and we are the third youngest. Don't really know.

My belief is guesswork, putting bits and pieces together. I believe that we are in the Age of Aquarius where the truth will be revealed. There are recently discovered scriptures that have not yet been released to the public.

Anyway - That's what I believe. You can dissagree with me, that's ok. My beliefs are way out there, I know this. However, within Christian circles. A christian is supposed to believe a certain thing. Mainly that Jesus is the Christ. There is a scripture in the bible that would make me one with the Anti Christ. I think Peter said that if anyone can't confess that Jesus is Christ, then again it might have been John. It has been awhile since I've read the bible. These things don't scare me. I will believe what I believe anyways. I believe these things were put there to scare you into submission. So if you believed what I believed, you couldn't be and wouldn't be a Christian. I certainly wouldn't want you to give that up. Beliefs are not that important. God looks at our heart not our mind.

Take Care

okcitykid said:

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God looks at our heart not our mind.

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Didn't Jesus say...?

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"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."

Matthew 22:37

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How do you account for something like that if we assume Jesus is right? What if my beliefs are true, historically?

Is it impossible for God to interact with humans in history?

You're confusing me.

1. I'm not sure the bible is always correct.

Ofcourse if Jesus is as I say or you say, he would have, could have, probebly was involved in our history.

Heart, soul and mind. You might have a definition for those three things. I don't. But I don't believe God looks at what we believe, but looks at our heart. Is it loving and caring or is it cold and hard. Do we care just about ourself or are we willing to reach out to others. I think to God, this is important. God will not say to sister Theresa, you believed that you could pray to me through mother marry using beads, sorry, you're wrong, you get no reward. Beside, she might even been right, but I don't think it matters. Ghandi created more peace than anyone in history. I don't think it matters what he believed, he has his reward, far greater than me even if I ever did find the truth and believed it.

Strongclad - as far as I am concerned, there is only ONE FACT that I will accept, that is: there is a God. Everything else TO ME is BELIEFS, OPINIONS and IDEAS. YOU can believe what you like. If you want to believe that BELIEFS, OPINIONS and IDEAS are facts. Go for it. I DO NOT and WILL NOT.

Nice response, CityKid. Strongclad is it not written that Jesus said that we would call out to Him, Lord,Lord . . . I know you not! Lip services never obtained Grace. Only the genuine repentence bears forth the good fruit

Thanks cturtle. Currently I am reading the Quran. Have you read it?

OkCityKid, no I have not read the Quran! But I would like too, where did you get a copy?
Speaking of such things I have been meaning to ask you to e-mail a question for me about the Quran. In some of our discussions we have related various text between the Quran and the Old Testament.
So I was wondering as how did the Quran come into existence? (The Bible (OT) is based upon Jewish Oral Traditions which were later put into the scroll form)
Also I was wondering about the break down of the Quran? Is it divided into segments or sequential order?

The copy I had before had an explination in it but this one doesn't. I'll have to research that. But, from what I can remember, it is a book given to the prophet by the angel gabrial about 600 years after christ. The prophet mohamad is supposed to be Jesus returned. But I could be wrong, its been awhile, I'll have to research that.

I have finished reading the second book. So far I'm not finding any great revelations. But I am surprised by all the anger, hatred and bloodshed. Here is a religion that believes that not only they are saved but faithful Christians and Jews as well. Those of the Islam religion who wish to harm Christians and Jews are not following the Quran. Maybe they haven't read it. Just like there are many Jews and Christians who haven't read their scriptures. Yet they are willing to fight for them but haven't read them.

My wife got it for me 4 christmas.

U can find it online here http://www.anova.org/sev/

Getting back to the thread 'misrepresentations' I noted that some confusion seems to exist in regards to certain representations of Satan?
In the Old Testament wasn't he considered the beautiful angel yet the modern version has horns & is surrounded by fire.
While the OT states that GOD appeared as a burning bush which was not consumed & as a tower of flame?
when Jesus came out of the water spirit descended upon him as a dove yet at pentacoast (sp) it appeared as tongues of flames?

Once again, I'm not always so sure about the bible. What is true and what is made up, what is added and what has been taken away.

From all the scriptures I have read. In the bible and otherwise. I have deducted that WE are the devil. That's why we are so different than all the other animals. All the other animals, they just live to survive. But for us it is more. For us, it is a test to see if we get another chance. Because we are the fallen angel. (my opinion).

ya I know what ya mean it started . . . . down that path from the beginning so how can one ignore it?

artits probobly drew Adam and Eve thinking of them as people like themselves. They probobly didn't think over that it requies an embillical cord to have a naval

OK here is my 2Cents worth- what if God had a navel? what then?
I think in the end artistic renditions are just that there is some freedom of expresion more so for the renisance painters but before that artists had to tow the line. Not to mention all the Iconoclasts who came along and decided to edit art history now and then.
If you want to go around finding gaps of logic and inconsistencies in Biblical stories you had better set aside a large block of time.

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OK here is my 2Cents worth- what if God had a navel? what then?
Not to mention all the Iconoclasts who came along and decided to edit art history now and then.

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Iconoclasts? Ya, I could see those who desired a physical GOD wanting to preserve an icon, Man (human) as GOD.

I agree. Those of us who live and breath in a free world forget that it was not always so. And still is not everywhere. Truth was and is sometimes only that which is or was allowed. You can't always believe what your eyes tell you.