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Martial arts

User Thread
 43yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that think4yourself is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Martial arts
Anyone here into martial arts? (and I'm not talking 'bout going to the movies)

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 44yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that Kookiekruncher is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Yeah.........Chuck Norris

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"Treat everyone as you would want to be treated"
 43yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that think4yourself is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.


Wanna start an online fan club with me?

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 34yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that TheTruth is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Yes actually. I was in Tae Kwon Do for a year or two until I moved to another state.

Actually, the most appealing form to me is Jeet Kune Do. The greatest martial artist of our time, Bruce Lee, invented the art as an art with no set rules. The art basically was the same as his motto- "My style is the art of fighting without fighting"

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"He who refuses to seek will never learn"
 36yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that JetPlane is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I'm on my second red belt in Tae Kwon Do now. I plan on getting my Deputy Black Belt by the end of the summer.
I'm also well-versed in Wudang Weng Shun Kuen and Brazilian Jujitsu.

When I get my black belt, I'll qualify to be registered.

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"\"Like maple syrup, Canada\' evil oozes.\"-<i>Canadian Bacon</i>"
 43yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that XsEyes is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
JetPlane, I have my second degree black belt in Jido Kwan Tae Kwon Do. What style do you take? Do you compete?

Brazilian Jujitsu is cool. I've never taken it but I fought someone who knows it. He wasn't very good but he was still tough.

BTW what is Wudang Weng Shun Kuen (try saying that three times fast ) and is a deputy black belt Bo Dan. Never heard that term before.

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"A wise man knows enough to know he knows nothing"
 43yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that think4yourself is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Fantastic, we have a little martial arts community forming!

I've been dabbling in a few things for a little over 2 years, and currently I'm doing MMA. TheTruth, I'm with you on Jeet Kune Do, especially their philosophy of taking what is useful and rejecting what is not. I'm really getting into cross-training and personal research -- lucky for me that's the in-thing right now

For the next while it looks like I will do MMA combined with reality-based self defense, which IMO is basically a modern version of Jeet Kune Do. I'll relate my experiences as I get them. So far, MMA training is phenomenal, and I recommend it to anyone seeking tough workouts.

(P.S. I got my a$$ kicked last weekend, woohoo! )

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 43yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that think4yourself is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
JetPlane, how long did you train Brazilian Jujitsu?

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 36yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that JetPlane is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I studied Chung Do Kwan Tae Kwan Do. It's a non sport-oriented form. A lot of emphasis on kicking, grace, utter and complete control.

I competed when I was 14, but haven't since then.

I trained in Brazilian Jujitsu for three years and am still going. I absolutely love it. If you've never seen Brazilian Jujitsu performed, it's a dance that a tribe of Brazilians created after being oppressed for years by the Spanish. They created the dance to combine beauty and power, as well as subtley, so they could practice the moves without the Spainards knowing they were practicing to fight back.

Wudang Weng Shun Kuen is basically a defensive art, lots of blocking and overpowering techniques that can immobilize the opponent without hurting or killing him. My teacher for this was a really old woman and she was able to throw 3 grown man to the ground in less than 10 seconds. It's all about keeping aware of balance and space.

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"\"Like maple syrup, Canada\' evil oozes.\"-<i>Canadian Bacon</i>"
 43yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that think4yourself is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Is this the same Brazilian Jujitsu that was refined by the Gracies?

Sounds like you're talking about Capoeira, another Brazilian art. The Brazilian Jujitsu I know is modified Japanese Jujitsu with emphasis on ground fighting. It's very effective, practiced all out, with full resistance. It's one of the best grappling arts out there. It was developed by the Gracies who fought all challengers in 1 on 1 bareknuckle no holds barred matches, and until the late 90s they had the best 1 on 1 fighters in the world.

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 43yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Restless Mind is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
who beat the gracies? Man they kicked some real ass in the UFC!

was it TANK?


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 43yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that think4yourself is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
*L*

I think Sakuraba takes top honours in that department, since they nicknamed him the "Gracie Killer"

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 36yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that JetPlane is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
While Capoeira is a martial art set to music, it's nothing like Brazilian Jujitsu. Capoeira, which I studied briefly, has a lot more fire to it than B.J. It was created by African slaves so it has a fiercer, very "lion-like" quality to its movements. Angola, its original form, was less of a "dance", but more of a slow, graceful way of showing grace, stability and power, all involving moves close to the ground.

Brazilian Jujitsu is more upper-body with the support of the lower body. It's all about balance, control, and beauty, stealth rather than quick attacks.

Plus, Capoeira turned into a martial art connected with criminal activity. Brazilian Jujitsu(called such just because of its similar goals and technical elements to Japanese Jujitsu) became a very refined art which for decades was performed only as a dance and not used in fighting.

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"\"Like maple syrup, Canada\' evil oozes.\"-<i>Canadian Bacon</i>"
 43yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that think4yourself is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Do you have any more information about it? Who originally developed this art? Is there a website?

I can't find anything on the net about BJJ except that of the Gracies, which to my knowledge has nothing to do with dance.

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 54yrs • M •
DaiSifu is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.



Wudang Weng Shun Kuen - by Grandmaster Rien Bul



The WUDANG style of Weng Shun Kuen was unknown to general public until recently, when Grandmaster Rien Bul opened public schools in the Netherlands and Australia. He also started a much debated website
on wich he revealed knowledge that was regarded 'secret' by other Sifu. It is a completely 'soft' style that contains NOT ONE 'hard' technique, wich makes it attractive to people of small build and aspecially women. Where does this miraculous style emerge from? The following article tells all...


A secret Shaolin style

When one was trained in the Shaolin temple one was first taught the 'hard' or 'external' forms. The forms that followed would gradually soften. The main filosofy behind this way of teaching was that it was harder for the novice to understand the 'hard' principles than the 'soft'.

The most advanced forms and techniques were kept highly secret and would only be taught to disciples who had already proven their rustworthyness. According to legend these last two 'secret' forms were taught in a hidden hall, called the 'Weng Shun Tong' (Hall of eternal spring). These forms were the Snake-form, a form that taught the disciple spirit, intent and deceptiveness. The other was the Crane-form and it taught the ultimate softness.

From Shaolin to Wudang

When the Shaolin temple was burned down once again by imperial troops some of the Shaolin monks who had studied the highest knowledge of Kung Fu were scattered over China. It is said that some Shaolin monks saught refuge in the Daoist Wudang temple and taught their Kung Fu knowledge to the disciples of the temple. For some reason they taught the soft styles immideatly, maybe because there was little time.

Wudang Quan

Through the centuries the Kung Fu practised in the Wudang temple aquired its own distinctive Daoist flavour. Wudang Kung Fu became known for it's softness, wich was little understood by outsiders. To this day, Wudang styles are schrouded by a sort of mystical veil.

In time a lot of the knowledge behind Wudang Kung Fu got lost and it fell apart in different styles, that all believe to possess the gospel truth on soft-style Kung Fu. The most well known of these styles are TaiJi Quan, Hsing Yi and BaguaZhang. But there are many more little known styles.

White Crane

Other styles filled the gaps in their knowledge with easier to understand 'hard' techniques. One of these so called soft/hard styles is the modern version of the original crane style. There are many different versions of this style. Some versions have more 'hard' techniques than others. Some of them have managed to mainly stay 'soft'.

The Ching Dynasty

The last imperial dynasty to rule China was called the Ching. The Han majority of the time weren't very happy about being ruled by the Manchu minority. They did all they could to bring down the Ching and restore the rule of the Ming dynasty that preceded it. The monks from both the Shaolin temple and the Wudang temple weren't very fond of the Manchu government either. They taught their knowledge of warfare to rebels who were out to overthrow this government. The widest spread styles among anti-Ching rebels were the Wudang- and Yong Chun versions of (White) Crane Kung Fu.

The 'Red Junk' period

Many rebels hid on opera boats. These boats, that were recogniseable by their red colour travelled from city to city on rivers and canals. On arrival they would build a stage to perform their operas. The arrival of an opera troupe was quite an event that attrackted all kinds of people engaging in commercial activeties. There were merchants, quaks, thieves, fortunetellers and of course, prostitutes.

Those prostitutes mostly worked on so called "flower boats". Many times the flowerboat-girls also hated the Manchu and worked with the red junk rebels. And sometimes, when a Ching official would visit such a girl, a rebel would be hiding in a closet.
When the official had dismissed his bodyguards so he could be alone with the prostitute, the assasin would suddenly kill the unsuspecting victim. In other cases the rebels would ambush people they wanted out of the way in the narrow alleys of the Cantonese cities. They specialised in making this narrowness of both boats and alleys work in their advatage. To this end a style of fighting was created that suited the rebels' needs. The movements of this style would be modified to take up very little space. The techniques were designed to finish off an opponent in the shortest possible time. They called their style Weng Shun Kuen (Everlasting Springtime Fist).

This version of the style is the one that is still mostly practised on mainland China. Another version, wich name was in time accidently changed to 'Wing Chun Kuen' (Springtime Song Fist), was brought to Hong Kong by Yip Man and aquired world wide fame. Recently, the mailand versions are stepping in the spotlight as well. The most well known are 'Chi Sim Weng Chun Kuen', 'Chan Yiu Min Weng Chun Kuen', 'Pang Nam Weng Chun Kuen' and 'Wudang Weng Shun Kuen'.

The style

Wudang Weng Shun Kuen is a so called "soft" style of traditional Chinese Gung Fu. This means that no muscular force is used to deflect an oncoming attack. Instead a fluent movement is used to direct an opponent's force back to him to defeat him. This is how a person of lesser strenth is able to defeat an attacker of larger, stronger build.

The motto of the style is "Safety above all else". The practitioner is taught to position himself outside of the opponent's reach and to disable him from that safe position. Wudang Weng Shun Kuen uses only simple, natural movements. That is why it can be learned by anyone. The solutions it presents are simple, practical and effective and therefore applicable by one and all.


The three stages of combat.

We perceive combat as a process that has three stages:

Stage one- Setting up the stance.
Do not attack before your opponent does! If and when he attacks, attack his attack by making contact with it by loosely slapping it with one of your arms. We call this technique 'Man Sao'.

Stage two- The 'Contact' stage.
Now you have established contact with your opponent you do not let go. You can feel the intended direction of the attack and you can now lead it away from it. Position out of your opponent's reach and bring him off balance at the same time.

Stage three- Disableing the opponent.
Once you're at the safe side of your opponent you can now easily take him out by hitting the weak points of his anatomy with 'soft' techniques.



'Wudang' Weng Shun Kuen's principles

Some of these styles bear some resemblance to the Hong Kong version, some are really very different from it. The following is an overview of the priciples of the Wudang Weng Shun Kuen style that distinguishes it from most other versions.

-Strictly counter attack-

We never attack. Weng Shun Kuen is strictly a counter-attacking style, for safety reasons. Sometimes, when an opponent comes too close in the first stage of combat, we fake an attack, like a Bil Jee to the eyes, without committing to the movement. The technique should be retractable at all times. This way the opponent is forced into defending his eyes. The instant we make contact with his hand, we change technique and attack his hand. Otherwise we always wait for an attack.

-Man Sao-

We give the opponent no "form" to work with. We don't stick out our hands in front of us, as most lineages do, so an opponent can't get a hold and, for instance, Lop Sao us. In accordance with the principle "If you see form, strike form. If you see shadow, strike shadow.", we strike at whatever comes at us. We do this with a half circle movement, upward from below, and strike the attack with the back of our Man Sao and redirect it outward. This way we need little footwork to position ourselves at the outside of the opponent's arm, out of his reach. A Lop Sao is frequently used to pull the opponent toward us, to the outside and off-balance.

-Going to the opponent's outside-

We don't confront the force coming at us, but always position at the opponent's outside or back.

-Unbalancing the opponent-

Weng Shun Kuen's foremost concern lies in fighting in the safest possible way. In other words, the first rule of Weng Shun Kuen is Safety First. With footwork (jamming the opponent's leg from the side or back), Pok Yik Jeung, or Lop Sao, we always unbalance the opponent and safely position outside of his reach before even attempting to strike.

-We are never the first to kick-

Again: Weng Shun Kuen is a counter-attacking style. There are only counter-kicks, if any at all. Preferably, we keep our feet to the ground, where we need them. This is for balance, but also because we might suddenly need to change direction or get a chance to jam the opponent's legs. Our footwork is aimed at unbalancing the opponent, while keeping ourselves balanced.
The kicks in the Chum Kiu (Sinking Bridge) form are solely counter-kicks.

-The 'Three Stages of Combat' theory-

This theory is unique to Wudang Weng Shun Kuen and was recently refined by Grandmaster Lin Yi (Lam Yee) and me. It is discussed in full detail in the article of the same name on the official 'Wudang Weng Shun Kuen' website.

-No excessive use of musclepower-

Wudang Weng Shun Kuen is purely a Soft or Internal system. It is designed to suit people of avarage build. We go out of the way of force that is directed at us, redirect it away from us and hit soft spots, so we don't need muscle power in finishing off the opponent either. Wudang Weng Shun Kuen practitioners don't hit as much as those of most other lineages I'm familiar with. In our philosophy, the chain punches of the Sil Lum Tao (Way of Shaolin) form are only meant to teach one to hit on the centerline and are not used in practical application.
Because we aim at weak spots of the human anatomy, we mostly use finger strikes, palm techniques and Phoenix fist.

-Bil Dao-

We don't have a specific form to train the Butterfly Sword techniques. But my Sifu told me to train the Bil Jee form while holding the Butterfly Swords instead. This has proven to be a useful concept.

-Long sword form-

We also have a unique sword form in wich we practice the use of what most would call a "Tai Chi type" (Wudang) sword. The use of the sword is very different from the way it is used in Tai Chi Chuan, even though the principles on wich it is based are very much alike. The only other lineage I know of who also practice a Long-Sword form is the Chan Yiu Min Weng Chun Kuen family.



This devastating style was passed on in Canton untill this day. It was only taught to carefully selected students and kept a secret until recently. It was first taught to a non-Chinese person in 1975. Since recently the style is open to the people of the world. You can find lots of information on this fascinating martial art on the official Wudang Weng Shun Kuen website:

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen


Copyright 2002 by Grandmaster Rien Bul



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Martial arts
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