what's the logic in x dying for our sins?

As we all know this thread does not entitle evolution. To briefly reason you question: the language of science is mathematics. Mathematics is logical.

"The summit is just a halfway point"

Evolution is not logical.
How can it be logically believable when there is no logical explaination of how it all started.
We as humans can't conceive such things and I don't think we ever will.
Its just doesn't seem logically possible.
Humans can't understand not having a beginning.
God is the same.
Any origin.
Do you see my point of view?
I understand summit that the beliefs are based on logic but it no explaination of the "very" beginning.
*sigh* much <3

"Anything is Possible when you think illogically."

why does the creation of everything have to be logical? why can't it all just be random mistakes? is that to hard for you to swallow?

"Wht cry for those that often cry? Instead, help them smile, and smile for those that smile."

Zato: your utterly confused with evolution and the foundations of the 'beginning'. Evolutionary science is a branch of science. The study of Evolution states and explains the beginning of Life on earth (and of course the process). Life on Earth was not the beginning of matter/energy. Evolutionary science is logical.
Other branches of science help explain the origins of the beginning of the matter/energy/universe(s) or even before that. These sciences that encompass theories such as quantum physics and the string theory are logical. There are quite a few differing theories on the origins of our universe(s) that are still in the making.

And Zato, don't worry, I actually believe there was no beginning and there is no end. There are numerous theories that encompass that concept. Hope that helps to clarify your misunderstanding.

now back to the original topic.

"The summit is just a halfway point"

In reply to the original question, we cannot apply our concept of logic to God because He is beyond our understanding. He cannot be proven or disproven so it stands that we must either accept Him on faith or merely refuse to believe in Him. but we can't disprove His existence nor prove it. saying that logic is more powerful than God or there could be no creator of the universe does not disprove God's existence because those are only two explanations. the question becomes one of faith so we may never know the reason why Jesus dying on the cross relieved us of our sins. it is not something that can be understood by our logic but is something that must be taken on faith. once again these questions will always and forever come down to a question of faith.

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."

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why does the creation of everything have to be logical? why can't it all just be random mistakes? is that to hard for you to swallow?

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Zato: your utterly confused with evolution and the foundations of the 'beginning'. Evolutionary science is a branch of science. The study of Evolution states and explains the beginning of Life on earth (and of course the process). Life on Earth was not the beginning of matter/energy. Evolutionary science is logical.
Other branches of science help explain the origins of the beginning of the matter/energy/universe(s) or even before that. These sciences that encompass theories such as quantum physics and the string theory are logical. There are quite a few differing theories on the origins of our universe(s) that are still in the making.

And Zato, don't worry, I actually believe there was no beginning and there is no end. There are numerous theories that encompass that concept. Hope that helps to clarify your misunderstanding.

now back to the original topic.

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In reply to the original question, we cannot apply our concept of logic to God because He is beyond our understanding. He cannot be proven or disproven so it stands that we must either accept Him on faith or merely refuse to believe in Him. but we can't disprove His existence nor prove it. saying that logic is more powerful than God or there could be no creator of the universe does not disprove God's existence because those are only two explanations. the question becomes one of faith so we may never know the reason why Jesus dying on the cross relieved us of our sins. it is not something that can be understood by our logic but is something that must be taken on faith. once again these questions will always and forever come down to a question of faith.

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"Anything is Possible when you think illogically."

KGB: Read your post without a Christian perspective. Everything made sense until you mentioned Jesus. If no logic can be applied to God's actions (which is entirely possible) then why does anyone know that Jesus died for our sins?

This thread, I believe, is not questoning God's motives... it is questioning a God's motives given that Jesus died for our sins. If God's motives cannot be logically proven, then Jesus dying for our sins cannot be be logically supported, which means it makes absolutely no sense.

If it makes absolutely no sense, then believing that Jesus died for our sins is a choice to believe in an illogical truth, unlikely and unexplainable as it may be.

Without logic, the beliefs of Jesus dying for our sins is a choice. If it is a choice, there is absolutely no legitimacy to it. The only difference between Jesus dying for our sins being fact and my morning french toast being a message from God is that more people believe the first theory and only I believe the second one.

Which puts it into perspective... to believe something without logic is choice... amongst the variety of choices about God, sin, and reality that exist, those that choose to believe in Jesus dying for our sins do so because it is more common a belief than my french toast dying for our sins.

Which means, a belief in Jesus dying for our sins is true for people only because other people already believe it to be truth. This is a dangerous groupthink mentality which is responsible for Nazism, cults, witch hunts, and McArthyism. Hence, the mentality that requires a person to believe in Jesus dying for our sins is the same mentality that leads to all those other bad things.

This is why although you may be entirely correct about Jesus dying for our sins being true and unexplainable, that is an unacceptable way to live because accepting that truth (true or false) without logical reasoning leads to one's vulnerability towards other more harsh and possibly damaging belief systems.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

We did not come from nothing... Life's growth on Earth has been re-created in labs. Using what we know of other planet's atmospheres and our own scientists are able to create similar atmospheres with almost the exact same molecules and particles and stimulation in closed systems that existed on Earth millions of years ago.

They have actually created the same moldy organisms that were the first on Earth that were able to reproduce themselves using the resources around them.

They can almost map the direct process by which human dna evolved and mutated over time. Our DNA has the exact same building blocks as trees. A tree can read us and we can read a tree because we are made of the same DNA building blocks.

When humans first emerged there were probably many different types of "humans", each with a unique DNA structure but due to natural selection only we survived.

Evolution is not a theory... it is as certain as mathematics is. Evolution explains why human DNA is almost identitcal to that of apes... it explains why we have wisdom teeth (a 'vestigial trait' - an organ whose original function has been lost during evolution), amongst other things.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

well stated Decius. I would also like to mention the following:

Jesus dying for our sins cannot be logically supported as God's motives are illogical. If one believes that Jesus died for our sins this is an illogical choice.

So if God can make plans, think logically or exist, then logic is an arch-power that encompasses God and gives reason for god's existence which appears to refute the idea that God could be the creator of logic.

The God as first-cause argument is slightly undermined. If there is no logical reason why God exists then it is more likely that there is no logical reason why the Universe exists, or why Jesus died for our sins, and that instead of assuming that the organisational force is a 'god', it's simpler and more rational to assume that it is the universe itself.

I'll also note that; it appears that whether God exists for logical reasons or not a fundamental contradiction occurs. The only answer is that creator-gods cannot possibly exist. If God is placed "beyond logic" this is a contradiction. And if it is said that Human logic is incapable of realizing such metaphysical truths, then this also undermines any argument that can be made by one human to another, for the existence of god. Therefore Jesus dying for our sins is illogical.

"The summit is just a halfway point"

I understand what Decius and Summit are saying... to a certain point... kind of hard to take in all at once but.. you both are assuming that God is either one or the other.
Logical or Illogical.
If all of Gods actions reside outside of logic then I agree that you statements would hold true but why couldn't a God imply action within and without logic?
Part of jesus dying is logical to us only that God says that he died for us so that we may enter Heaven. But the actual workings are Godly behind the picture which are illogical to us but none the less still possible.
Right?
Am I way off course?
Cause I mean... I am a little slow sometimes.

"Anything is Possible when you think illogically."

I said:

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Science has yet to explain how something comes from nothing. Or how there was always something. Or how there isn't anything.

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We did not come from nothing...

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"Anything is Possible when you think illogically."

The origin is the big bang which does not have any origin. Anything beyond that CAN be attributed to God or Jesus since we have no logical reason not to believe it. I personally don't even fully believe in the big bang theory.

The origin of matter and energy is unexplainable from what we know now... and this is where I also refer to spirituality to complete my understanding of the universe.

But just because we don't know that, that doesn't negate our understanding of Earth and how humans came to be. Hence, any religious or philosophical belief system we choose to believe in must take into account all the science we do know, and then complete the things we do not know without contradicting what we do.

Jesus dying for our sins contradicts far too many things that we DO know.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

GOD is illogical, Christ dying is illogical, the bible even states that these things will confound the the wise. Leaving the scriptures alone let's bring this into perspective. God being "THE CREATOR", "THE ALL KNOWING" that is illogical and impossible for the smartest finite to comprehend. Because we as finite have a begining and an end we start knowing nothing, as we start on our path to death we learn proper grammatical syntax, puncutaion, spelling, english, mathematical equations, and etc... These things are logical, these things are great inventions to help bring us all together. Yet sometimes they're used to hold others back and therefore seem illogical to the man who dosn't posses the same belifes as the man who holds them in high standards, a must have, the only way to live,.....

For a man to have found GOD is logical to him because that means to he no longer has to live the way he was living, he doesn't have to live under that guilt of i've been a bad boy and i'm going to everylasting darkness. That makes logical sense to

Perceptions and Personnas are illogical.

"what if I'm a clone?"

Your entire post consists of defending one's right to believe bullshit because it feels good. That mentality is stupid, because that's what the Nazis believed.

So you're saying it's okay to be a stupid follower no matter what the beliefs as long as they feel good.

Which, as we already know, is ridiculous.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

That's excatly my point. Your illogical for casting down what I belive so you can feel safe in your own world. If ignorant book knowledge worms like you would get out and open yourself to others than those that think like you it would make perfect sense that your existense is illogical i'm really do you think your gonna make a difference by you posting with what you reply, what's the reason of saying something if it's not gonna make a difference to the people who you're trying to reach how illogical and falable is that.

"what if I'm a clone?"