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Can the Supernatural be taken seriously?

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90 Posts / 63M
     :   27yrs   :  
Strongclad

Can the Supernatural be taken seriously? [+ favourites]

Basically my question is this:

Can the "Supernatural" be considered as a possible truth claim from the minute it is put forth without being hastily shot down as being "Un-natural" or more specificly "an occurance that which doesn't happen?"

And following this I must ask, how must one support a claim of the supernatural if given the "benefit-of-the-doubt?"

I ask this mainly to those who may be skeptical of miracles, God, and the like in hopes that between us (I am a Christian who believes in God and miracles) there can be found a common ground for discussion. Let me know what your feelings or ideas are.

Remember though, this is not a debate as to whether or not certain miracles have occured. It is only questioning what sort of action we should take against the claim of a miracle or the supernatural.


"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

1334 Posts / 42M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

truth only exists within the individual. If your individual reality doesn't encompass the 'supernatural' then ignore the claims.


"The summit is just a halfway point"

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2841 Posts / 92M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

Statistical probability, which is the essence of the universe.

Whether you realize it not, every decision you make is based on neither complete faith or complete doubt, but rather a statistical probability equation.

The factors that lead to the final decision are infinite, and the more inquisitive we are about the validity of our factors and also the acceptance of as many factors as possible leads to the most statistically probable (and therefore correct) assumption.

So, to believe in god, or miracles or ghosts one must analyze the probability of such things existing. By definition, if it is a probability question both extremes are possible, and so it must be accepted that god can exist and also may not exist.

Once that is cleared up, then you determine why you find it statistically probable or improbable that either thing exists.

A factor that leads to improbability is the lack of scientific proof about supernatural things. A factor that may lead to probability is a logical assertion that a lack of scientific proof is specifically engineered by the powers that be to test the faith of individuals.

etc.

When both parties are willing to accept that their assertions are nothing but statistical probabilities, and that they are both willing and searching for as many factors as possible to qualify their assumption, and that they both accept that either possibility is possible, the truth can always be determined and both parties will definitely reach a mutual conclusion.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

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2841 Posts / 92M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

And my post directly contradicts summit's post. Individual truth and any such concepts are the mating call of those that are afraid of accepting new factors that may alter the validity of their assumptions.

In other words it's the desperate refuge of closed minded idiots.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

1334 Posts / 42M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

quote:
afraid of accepting new factors that may alter the validity of their assumptions...In other words it's the desperate refuge of closed minded idiots.


Actually I think it is the paranormalists (or people who believe in 'supernatural, miracles, even religion etc' ) are rather fearful and close minded. This is why:

Paranormalism is socially constructed. I think those who accept new factors (ie. supernatural miracles) are yet to further explore their individual reality. Instead they take a 'desperate refuge' short-cut, by accepting the paranormal. They collapse with, "Oh well, it must be a miracle which we weren’t meant to understand".

With this delusion they struggle with exploring their invididual realm. This short-cut offers them comfort by 'connecting the dots' and creating a sense of order and structure in life. They offer a sense of meaning or control over things that are otherwise beyond our understanding. Believers of the paranormal don't understand how to be skeptical and hold such claims up to basic standards of logic and reason.

Religion, the media, and social processes, overwhelmingly influence peoples refuge for the paranormal. The scientific version of reality is more likely to be factually correct than the paranormal version. Paranormalists tend to be more sympathetic to the idea that "anything is possible," a principle that science emphatically rejects. We should have a reason to believe not a duty to believe. These are some reasons why I am skeptic of the apparent 'supernatural'.


"The summit is just a halfway point"

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2841 Posts / 92M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

My post was not a reflection of a belief in the paranormal or not.... it was a reflection on the concept that through discussion two individuals who may be opposed in view initially will always end in complete agreement if they are both open minded and willing to alter their assumptions of reality as they learn more about it.

Obviously one person knows things the other does not, and vice versa... once all those experiences are added together and equated, one final, more complete probable assumption can be made.

However, if one perceives their truth to be valid whilst perceiving another person's truth to also be valid, yet their truths differ, then this is a cowardly way of escaping having to justify one's beliefs.

So, if somoene believes in the paranormal because they saw a ghost, they must also accept the possibility that they hallucinated the whole event if a psychologist explains how that is a possible explanation.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

210 Posts / 40M
     :   32yrs   :  
PeteSmith

quote:
truth only exists within the individual

Is that statement absolutely true?


""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

1334 Posts / 42M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

quote:
Is that statement absolutely true?

It is a postmodernist opinion. Opinions are individual truths/perceptions not universal truth. It is relative.

you asked me this before in the following thread-
http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/thrdid=47762-u-frmid=17-u-page=
1



"The summit is just a halfway point"
[  Edited by summit at   ]

1347 Posts / 40M
     :   23yrs   :  
etherealmeekle

To state that truth only exists within the individual does sound pretty absolute, if it wasn't then it leaves room for absolute. So both ways of looking at it lead to the existence of absolute truth.


"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

1334 Posts / 42M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

It is an individual absolute, but it is not universal truth. You are getting confused between individual truth and universal truth. Your tragedy is that you think we can know the universal truth. Universal truth is an empty abstraction. If truth must account for all the facts, and if accounting for all the facts results in inconsistency; only the most empty abstractions can be true. If we knew all the facts, one individual's "truth" would be inconsistent with another's, and therefore universal truth is false. All truth is relative. Certainty is an illusion, certainty stifles thought. Uncertainty frees it. Whatever beliefs we hold they are provisional. If there was universal truth then there would certainly be only one rational course of action open to us.


"The summit is just a halfway point"

1347 Posts / 40M
     :   23yrs   :  
etherealmeekle

And ignorance is bliss.


"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

90 Posts / 63M
     :   27yrs   :  
Strongclad

quote:
"Your tragedy is that you think we can know the universal truth. Universal truth is an empty abstraction."


Is this true for everyone, or only the entirety of the human race with our completely separate individual perceptions of truth?

And, in what frame of your "truth is relative" mind do you have to be to think you must correct one's individual perception of truth with your own?

You know, sarcasm isn't really my thing, but dang dude. Obviously you must have recognized this thread as one where those who coexist within it know that we can draw consistent conclusions about the world around us. That's what science does, and the mere formation of the scientific community bears witness to this fact in that it has cooperation between its individual parts so it may understand what is around us.

This is what the topic of this thread assumes and recognizes. That's why we're trying to find a common ground for discussion. There is no place here for relativism and postmodernism.

I am sorry if I may seem disrespectful.


"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

90 Posts / 63M
     :   27yrs   :  
Strongclad

I concur with the first of your posts Decius, but only partialy since I'm not sure if a person can show something to be statistically improbable.

I've seen that a person can show a claim or theory to be probable by showing favorable evidences. The more favorable evidences that are shown, the more stable a positive conclusion gets. But in my reasoning, the only way a claim can be concluded to be unstable or improbable is by its lack of evidence. Maybe that's the statistical part if it...?


"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

1334 Posts / 42M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

Strongclad:

quote:
Is this true for everyone, or only the entirety of the human race with our completely separate individual perceptions of truth?


thats self-explanatory for you; obviously its not true for you.

quote:
in what frame of your "truth is relative" mind do you have to be to think you must correct one's individual perception of truth with your own?


In no frame. This is a discussion of listening to different opinions, not to repudiate. The whole essence of my opinion is that I never claim universal truth, only individual truth, unlike you.

quote:
draw consistent conclusions about the world around us. That's what science does


And so does religion and paranormalists.

quote:
I ask this mainly to those who may be skeptical of miracles, God


oh...wait, hang on, then you say-

quote:
That's why we're trying to find a common ground for discussion. There is no place here for relativism and postmodernism


It appears self evident that you asked for skeptics of paranormalism. If you believe we are trying to find a common ground then you shouldn't have asked for different opinions in the first place. why be a bigot. In other words, you seem intolerant of those who differ. You could consider listening to what postmodernism has to say.


"The summit is just a halfway point"
[  Edited by summit at   ]

210 Posts / 40M
     :   32yrs   :  
PeteSmith

quote:
It is an individual absolute

what does this mean????
If I believe that truth is absolute and universal then you have to grant that I am right because it is my opinion.

Is this what you are saying?


""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

Can the Supernatural be taken seriously?
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