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Musings of the Cynics

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Can the Supernatural be taken seriously?

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1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

my point exists. I think therefore I am. Whatever you say, it is merely an opinion, not absolute universal truth!

providing an 'internet definition', or 'your definition' can't prove my opinion wrong nor does it aid my established individual understanding of truth. That weak and rather skewed definition claims universal truth, whilst I don't. That said, nothing can prove anyones point wrong, because as i've said for the millionth time, opinions come out of individual mouths.

quote:
our perceptions of truth. That doesn't actually affect the truth.

Straight from the horses mouth! your context affects your perception of truth.

quote:
By proving that absolute truths exist

hmmmm. That is an extreme abstract, rationalist and impersonal way of thinking. You have a very reductionist philosophy, which holds its problems.

I appreciate your contemptuous opinion (even though I obviously disagree with you), yet it seems impossible for you to give a comprehensive explination of what universal truth actually is, which is fair enough considering my point of view.

you may like to consider understanding relativism-
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/relativism/ . Once you have read that; considering you can understand it, then the way you perceive the world, and how you view 'truth' may change (this is to anyone as well).

"The summit is just a halfway point"
[ Edited by summit at ]

SITE ADMIN

2848 Posts / 94M

28yrs

Decius

Well, i'm glad you did not address anything in my thread otherwise this would have gone on... me explaning things pretty clearly and you claiming it's an "opinion".

quote:
I think therefore I am. Whatever you say, it is merely an opinion, not absolute universal truth!

The mating call of someone who disregards the concept of logic. Good luck in attempting to decipher any form of reality without it. I don't claim that your view is an opinion. I claim that you believe it is the truth, and also, that you are clearly wrong. And since logic is on my side, I'll believe what I have explained until someone logically proves my premises incorrect (which is always possible).

An "internet definition" from a "dictionary" about a "word" in the "english language" that we are "using to communicate" is quite "necessary" when people attempt to communicate using "language".

So, to encapsulate this discussion...

1. You believe that a red object ceases to be red if a person doesn't believe it is red.

2. You don't believe that an english dictionary definition of a word adequately defines the way it should be used in an english speaking discussion forum.

3. You don't believe that physics and chemistry provide humanity as a whole a reasonably accurate way to observe and predict universal truths.

4. You believe that because everyone does not know universal rules that that means they do not exist (similar to an infant not knowing about gravity... that means it doesn't exist!)

That about sums it up I think. Good luck with that!

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

Decius- we could keep going on and on and on, if we wish.

quote:
I don't claim that your view is an opinion

what do you think it is then?!

quote:
And since logic is on my side, I'll believe what I have explained until someone logically proves my premises incorrect (which is always possible).

You have a predilection for systems and abstract deductions where you are ready to distort the truth intentionally, and to deny the evidence of your senses only to justify your own logic. Thankfully I am beyond logic and rationality.

If it is always possible that some one can prove you wrong, then it isn't absolute universal truth is it!

quote:
An "internet definition" from a "dictionary" about a "word" in the "english language" that we are "using to communicate" is quite "necessary" when people attempt to communicate using "language".

Yes it can be helpful to communicate with, but considering neither of us absolutely agree with each other, it isn't exactly the best of ideas to spill out a definition, that claims the 'absolute' is it. We should be far beyond a definition by now, or at least I am.

quote:
1. You believe that a red object ceases to be red if a person doesn't believe it is red.

yes, because one's individual truth is contextually specific. Individual truth depends on how we perceive it.

quote:
2. You don't believe that an english dictionary definition of a word adequately defines the way it should be used in an english speaking discussion forum.

Who said it is adequate enough. Who said it is the way it should be used. Freedom of speech my friend.

quote:
3. You don't believe that physics and chemistry provide humanity as a whole a reasonably accurate way to observe and predict universal truths.

Science is an incredibly reasonable and accurate way to observe and predict theories, not absolute universal truths.. The ultimate goal of science is to understand the natural world in terms of scientific theories, which are only concepts. The word 'theory' refers to a speculative idea. They are not answers. They are simply reasons.

quote:
4. You believe that because everyone does not know universal rules that that means they do not exist (similar to an infant not knowing about gravity... that means it doesn't exist!)

Yes, knowledge of the world and how we perceive it is socially and historically specific as I have already established; that I only believe in individual truth; where everyone doesn't know the 'absolute universal truth' because it doesn't exist.

I think therefore I am. I hope you do read into Relativism

"The summit is just a halfway point"
[ Edited by summit at ]

210 Posts / 41M

33yrs

PeteSmith

quote:
you have yet to comprehensively explain what the 'absolute universal truth' is.

I now know what the problem is. You think that for something to be true we must know it and be able to explain it.

Truth is true whether we know and understand it or not.

I have a red car. It is the truth. You may not be able to prove it but it is still true.

""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

quote:
I now know what the problem is. You think that for something to be true we must know it and be able to explain it.

What I am saying is, if you well and truly believe in 'universal truth', you have automatically introverted yourself the ultimate requirement to provide an 'absolute universal' reason and explination of what the universal truth is. I am not a determinist! Opinions are individual, not universal. I am not a reductionist.

quote:
Truth is true whether we know and understand it or not. I have a red car. It is the truth. You may not be able to prove it but it is still true.

Your opinion is refering to your belief that 'truth' is universal. You are thinking too rationally. Just like Decius, you seem to have a predilection for systems and abstract deductions where you are ready to distort the truth intentionally, and to deny the evidence of your senses only to justify your own logic, that is where the problem lies. And problems cannot be resolved by the same level of thinking that gave birth to them.

"The summit is just a halfway point"

210 Posts / 41M

33yrs

PeteSmith

quote:
for systems and abstract deductions where you are ready to distort the truth intentionally, and to deny the evidence of your senses only to justify your own logic, that is where the problem lies

what????

""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

To simplify it for you- your rationality and abstract opinion is prepared to deny all individual truths, in order to justify your own logic.

"The summit is just a halfway point"

210 Posts / 41M

33yrs

PeteSmith

If we deny your 'individual truth', why is that a problem. From what you have said it only applys to the individual anyway!

""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

When I said it being a 'problem' I was refering to the flaw I see in universal truth:
- which is absolutely based on abstract and rational judgements.
- which rejects the ideology that individual truths exist (ie. a determinist who believes they can reduce all truth down to a singular universal absolute).

And yes whatever you say, whatever I say, only applies to one's self. Relativism my friend.

"The summit is just a halfway point"
[ Edited by summit at ]

SITE ADMIN

2848 Posts / 94M

28yrs

Decius

Summit: It is obvious that since you reject rationality and logic that you have no ability to comprehend its mechanisms in a form of discussion.

Regardless of whether you agree or dissagree with me, you have little to no place on a discussion forum, and especially one like this, if you believe that knowledge is not the result of logical deductions and observations.

There is no purpose to you sharing thoughts here, or anywhere everyone is not supposed to say "I agree that you are correct because it is your belief."

Your thoughts are ridiculous and it is blatently apparent that you are just regurgitating things you've read with little to no deduction on your own part... primarily because you don't even believe in deduction.

BACK ON TOPIC FROM NOW ON

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

quote:
you have no ability to comprehend its mechanisms in a form of discussion

I have comprehended the mechanisms regardless if I disagree with 'logical reductionism'. It seems you have limited ability to comprehend relativism.

quote:
you have little to no place on a discussion forum, and especially one like this, if you believe that knowledge is not the result of logical deductions and observations...Your thoughts are ridiculous and it is blatently apparent that you are just regurgitating things you've read with little to no deduction on your own part...

And so are your thoughts apparently ridiculous. Your discriminatory assumptions of me 'regurgitating things...with no deduction" is utter hypocracy! because relativism is a well established and known philosophical view point. This is a philosophical debate. A debate is where two or more opinions are discussed. Not one! There is no absolute universal right or wrong, only perception and opinion.
I'm sorry but it seems that you have short-cutted this discussion because you can't provide an answer to what 'universal truth' is, which is fair enough considering my point of view. Your only reason is that you don't believe me and that I don't believe in reductionism. Your views are just as extremist. You could have more appropriately justified your reasoning. freedom of speech my friend.

I too would love to get back to the original topic, but you can't expect people to completely accept your dictating absolute opinion. I do believe captaincynic is a place for discussing and sharing other's opinions. And the reason why we are discussing this is because it is relevant to how we give judgement.

"The summit is just a halfway point"
[ Edited by summit at ]

Can the Supernatural be taken seriously?


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