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"Love is like fire. When you have it lit, it's warm, and mesmerizing. If you suddenly thrust your hand in it burns. But when the fire's out you are left cold, and wishing for it to come back." - Christina Marie Power (myself)

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Musings of the Cynics

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Can the Supernatural be taken seriously?

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2848 Posts / 94M

28yrs

Decius

Strongclad: Of course not... the exact factors that link to something being probable also link to the opposite being improbable.

Evidence to support a forgiving God, by definition, makes more improbable evidence to support a vengeful God, etc.

So if there is evidence pointing to psychological facts that lead to a probability of all sightings of the supernatural to be false, then that leads to an improbability of supernatural things existing.

You can never push a belief in one direction without lessening the fortitude in opposing views.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

quote:
If I believe that truth is absolute and universal then you have to grant that I am right because it is my opinion.

Petesmith: yes you are entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean one has to accept your claim. Your opinion is an individual absolute, however it is not universal. I'll further explain why below.

What does individual absolute mean?
Individual absolute truth means that 'truth' only exists within yourself. Basically, there is no one truth, there are many. Your individual absolute is part of this 'many'. Meaning and value of human beliefs and behaviors have no absolute reference to truth. Each person has their own, personal, truth. Truths in the human sense are ever-changing. Truth varies between person to person (contextually specific). Truth is relative. It is always dynamic depending upon one's knowledge and growth. Truth depends on your culture, religion, education, governments and the media. Moral truths are socially constructed. As I said before whatever beliefs we hold they are provisional. If there was universal truth then there would certainly be only one rational course of action open to us.

"The summit is just a halfway point"

210 Posts / 41M

33yrs

PeteSmith

quote:
but that doesn't mean one has to accept your claim

Why does that mean we have to accept yours!

""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

it doesn't mean that. I never said you have to accept mine, I simple put out an opinion.

"The summit is just a halfway point"

210 Posts / 41M

33yrs

PeteSmith

quote:
Basically, there is no one truth

By stating there is no one truth, you are affirming that there is at least one truth. Your statement!!!

You cannot deny an absolute truth without affirming one!

""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

the statement- 'there is no one truth' means that there is no universal truth. My 'truth' is individual truth not universal truth!

"The summit is just a halfway point"

210 Posts / 41M

33yrs

PeteSmith

You miss the point.

if you state there is no universal truth, you are infact stating a universal truth i.e. there is no universal truth!

""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

quote:
if you state there is no universal truth, you are infact stating a universal truth

no, as I said, I am stating an opinion. This opinion is individual truth, not universal.

"The summit is just a halfway point"

210 Posts / 41M

33yrs

PeteSmith

How then do we establish laws?

Are yuou saying there are no univeral absolutes?

""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

sadly laws are established by people who believe in universal truth within specific contexts. Yes, to certify it, for the 7th time, im saying there are no universal absolutes.

Petesmith- you've yet to give your opinion on what this discussion is actually about- Should the supernatural be taken seriously?

"The summit is just a halfway point"

SITE ADMIN

2848 Posts / 94M

28yrs

Decius

Summit: The falsehood of your opinion is that if you believe anything to be true as an individual, you in fact believe that to be the absolute truth, regardless of whether that belief is an individual truth or not from a third person point of view.

You believe, as an individual from my perspective, that there are no absolute truths.

But from your perspective that is true of reality, and you do not accept that I am correct in stating that absolute truths exist.

In fact, the only way that you believe in what you say would be given a situation where you concurrently believe that I am correct in absolute truths existing whilst believing that absolute truths don't exist, which is impossible.

Remember, i didn't say you allow for the possibility of me being right and you being wrong... I mean you concurrently believe that we are both right even though we oppose one another. That is the only way individual truths exist according to you... and that is impossible.

Hence individual truths are impossible for an individual to actually believe in.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

Decius:

quote:
The falsehood of your opinion is that if you believe anything to be true as an individual, you in fact believe that to be the absolute truth, regardless of whether that belief is an individual truth or not from a third person point of view.

Thats not being false; that is the validity of my arguement. I've already established that individual absolutes differs from universal absolutes.

Truth is socially and contextually specific. If you don't believe in individual truth then your opinion is obliterated (because it is obviously not universal [ie. not everyone agrees with you]. If there was universal truth then there would certainly be only one rational course of action open to us- which is impossible). Universal truth is an empty abstraction. If truth must account for all the facts, and if accounting for all the facts results in inconsistency; only the most empty abstractions can be true. If we knew all the facts, one individual's "truth" would be inconsistent with another's, and therefore universal truth is false. All truth is relative.

quote:
you concurrently believe that we are both right even though we oppose one another. That is the only way individual truths exist according to you... and that is impossible

no, that is far from what I am saying. Note the word- Individual truth; thus meaning that my truth only exists within myself. Your truth exists within you. My truth doesn't expand to your truth, and your truth doesn't expand to mine.

"The summit is just a halfway point"

SITE ADMIN

2848 Posts / 94M

28yrs

Decius

quote:
Truth is socially and contextually specific.

What are you talking about? Truth is truth. Whether you believe something to be red or blue (which is your opinion) there is a truth about how it filters light which creates the color, which is a truth. Hence the clear existance of absolute truths.

quote:
Thats not being false; that is the validity of my arguement. I've already established that individual absolutes differs from universal absolutes.

No... you said universal absolutes do not exist. That is clearly proven wrong by my color example. It does not matter if you believe it or I believe it, it still IS.

quote:
If you don't believe in individual truth then your opinion is obliterated (because it is obviously not universal [ie. not everyone agrees with you]. If there was universal truth then there would certainly be only one rational course of action open to us- which is impossible)

Total nonesense. People not agreeing with me does not in any way detract from the validity of my claim nor the existance of it as a possible universal truth that applies to everyone, even if they don't believe in it. There IS only one course of action given universal truths... people not accepting these again, does not devaluate their existance. A person that flies in a plane all the time is still fully affected by the force of gravity even if he or she chooses not to believe in it or follow it.

quote:
If truth must account for all the facts, and if accounting for all the facts results in inconsistency; only the most empty abstractions can be true.

Utter nonesense. Personal truths, as you coin the phrase, are more flawed than universal ones for universal ones at least attempt to encompass the universe as a whole and all the factors in it in order to provide validity. One human;s knowledge of reality leads to less than half the knowledge two people will attain together. Take ten people's knowledge and you get closer and closer to a truer universal absolute.

quote:
Individual truth; thus meaning that my truth only exists within myself. Your truth exists within you. My truth doesn't expand to your truth, and your truth doesn't expand to mine.

You are absolutely confused. Truths are truths... a truth to me by definition leads to you. Which is my whole point... what you believe to be true in an imposition on my life as well, for we have too much in common as we share the same air and language and planet. Individual truths may exist in come capacity where they may exist for one individual but be impossible to affect another in any way... which would permit it to exist as an individual truth. But such a concept is almost impossible since we are all affected by the same things in one form or another.

Perhaps it is a question of semantics: Individual truth is a paradox, because truth, by definition, means universal certainty. If you believe something that I dissagree on, then one of us is wrong, because there is only one universe we operate from... which clearly means that there are no individual truths, and only absolute truths.

The farther your individual opinion strays from the statistically probable universal truth, the less correct you are. hence, it should be everyone's goal to synchronize their individual opinion to the most statistically probable universal truth... and this is achieved by the mergence of individual opinions backed by logical premises which are sourced from individual experiences.

Individual experiences equated together with analysis and deduction leads to a greater proximity to the universal truth.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

1334 Posts / 44M

22yrs

summit

Truth being socially and contextually specific means that
the way we perceive the world, together with our knowledge is socially, culturally, and historically embedded. The way we view the world depends on our social perceptions of truth. Human social diversity concedes different values, moral systems and thinking systems. Context of an individual or community shapes their values. Truth is not linear it is dynamic.

quote:
you said universal absolutes do not exist. That is clearly proven wrong by my color example. It does not matter if you believe it or I believe it, it still IS.

Yes, absolute universal truth does not exist. You claim that how it filters light which creates colour is absolute universal truth...far from it. Your colour example is your opinion- individual truth depends on how you perceive the world.

quote:
People not agreeing with me does not in any way detract from the validity of my claim nor the existance of it as a possible universal truth that applies to everyone, even if they don't believe in it.

yes it does, because if there was 'universal truth' then different opinions, different individual truths would not exist!

quote:
One human's knowledge of reality leads to less than half the knowledge two people will attain together. Take ten people's knowledge and you get closer and closer to a truer universal absolute.

comes closer to universal truth...does it so? not absolutely.

quote:
Individual truths may exist in some capacity where they may exist for one individual but be impossible to affect another in any way... which would permit it to exist as an individual truth

oh so now you claim that individual truth exists. Now your getting confused....if there are individual truths, then universal truth cannot exist.

quote:
truth, by definition, means universal certainty

by definition? by who's definition...by your definition hence your individual opinionated truth.

As you know I've established my point. All I can say is, that you are looking into the idea of 'truth' way too rationally. For your sake Decius your disdainful claims have no more validity than mine. So far, your opinion is rather contempt. You speak so fondly of absolute, yet you have yet to comprehensively explain what the 'absolute universal truth' is.

"The summit is just a halfway point"

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2848 Posts / 94M

28yrs

Decius

Your point is non-existant.

Claiming that the universal laws of physics and chemistry do not lead to more difinitive understanding of our universe in an individually non-debatable way is a clear indication that you have a skewed vision of reality.

To aid you in understanding what the actual meaning of truth is, go here: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=truth

Often a definition can clear things up quicker than words will.

quote:
The way we view the world depends on our social perceptions of truth.

Yeah... our perceptions of truth. That doesn't actually affect the truth.

You think that just because you were raised to believe that red is blue means that light actually creates an RGB combination of blue given a red box... FOR YOU?

That'a laughable.

Red being red and blue being blue are base sibling premises that have millions of other siblings. These absolute truths lead to more complicated ones, and so on and so on. In the end, they all root back to base facts... facts which are the most statistically probable assumptions based on the maximum joint experience of as many memory maintaining entities as possible.

I do believe that I can't explain it any further to you... hence I will tie this in with the subject of this thread.

By proving that absolute truths exist and it is then only a question of discovering to the best of our abilities what those truths are, God or ghosts do or do not exist... difinitively. The best we can do is combine our joint experiences and analyze all the data to come up with the most accurate statistically probable answer... as is the process with any intelligent abstract deduction.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

Can the Supernatural be taken seriously?


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