People hate vegetarians

Sleepingwraith, good to speak and debate with you again. I'm heartened to learn that somewhere people are actually taking classes on ethics and humanities. There's hope in the world yet. And so we shall progress...

"Progress... an interesting thing we humans seem to concentrate and focus our lifes toward."

Progression, regression, destruction or stagnation are our only options in this framework. Choose (or not). Personally I can only see the one option. Not sure it's just we humans that aspire progress, it's just that we have a word for it.

"Any law based on equality is moral."

I'm not sure I agree with that broad statement on the basis that it assumes that the law of morality is based on equality. Any law based on equality is based on equality. Any law based on morality is based on morality, i.e. the rights and wrongs of human behaviour (I am loathe to say 'human', I think it applies to all higher thinkers, but until the old afore-mentioned aliens come, human behaviour will do). I am inclined to append the following with regard to the subject of morals, "Any law based on morality should be consistent rather than equal".

"Any law that has acceptions is immoral."

From here on in I'm going to assume you meant to type "Exceptions" because "Acceptions" is not really making sense? If you did indeed mean to say that "any law that has exceptions is immoral", then this is an adjunct of the previous statement which is, I think, flawed on the basis of the assumption of morality being based on equality. This may amaze you to hear me say this, but we are not all equal, obviously, therefore rules governing morality must take this into consideration and deal with it in a consistent way because it can't be dealt with in an equal way because all things are not equal. This further proves the inaccuracies of basing morals on equality, rather than consistency.

"Why make a law for pigs being allowed to drive let alone a plant?"

We wouldn't, because all things are not equal (pigs and artichokes can't drive nor feel aggrieved if they are not allowed to) therefore morality cannot be based upon the assumption that they are. I actually think we agree on this, but our conclusions on what this means differ, yes?

"what we eat truly is based on preference, which is no longer a case of morality"

Not true. Preference is certainly one of the minor basis for what we eat but what we eat/torture/abuse/exploit it is still a case of/for morality if we would expect the same from our superiors. Bear in mind, that the "Food Chain" that we all pat our backs and congratulate ourselves about being at the top of, is NOT, in fact, hierarchical, therefore we are not at the top of it governing the lower echelons, the food chain is CYCLICAL and we are but a part of it, we do not govern all of it, we influence part of it (a big part, yes) but our influence is not, on the whole, a positive one. Clearly our inherited opinions are in need of a rewire.

"But there is a difference relative to "we" the humans: you do not eat other humans because it is not beneficial to your health."

In the interests of being concise, we have referred to this moral dilemma of cannibalism in terms of consumption, but the big picture is not about purely that is it? We are also talking about how we treat our fellow beings, creatures and things on this planet that we share. You're right, on the most part we do not eat other humans, but we rape, steal, kill, abuse, maim, torture, exploit and abuse each other, en mass, every second of every day and night. Morality IS an issue. Unfortunately the people who supposedly are the ambassadors of morality are represented by those clueless meandering followers of each others tails - the religious establishment. Shit, we are more fucked than we realise.

"I hope this is a good excuse for you to get that bacon sandwich..."

Thanks for trying, really, I really want to eat one guilt free, you're the first to try and help me. Thanks, at least, for that.

My mate JoelB said "I like bacon. I ate it today actually."

Nice JoelB, er, thanks for that information. today I did a poo poo and a wee wee.

My new friend Jacker_Jones said "for every animal a vegetarian saves i'm going to eat three"

That's pretty funny JJ. Good job I'm not technically vegetarian, but in the same spirit, for every three animals you eat I'm going to rape six women? ho ho, what fun, your turn.

MG

"deal with it in a consistent"

why not deal with every case seperatly and treat evrybody as if they are different, and therefore deserve a separate treatmen?t because their motives might not be the same.

"eat/torture/abuse/exploit"

we hurt truly based on preference. the fact is people just can't stomach eating other people. thats not in our nature, nor any other mamals nature. on the other hand crimanals, and people that are just afraid of the law, are quite used to commiting horible crimes to completly innocent people. and the homest, truly good people, don't rape because they just cant stomach it.

"for every three animals you eat I'm going to rape six women"

that is so fucked up

"Wht cry for those that often cry? Instead, help them smile, and smile for those that smile."

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"Life is such sweet sorrow."

Ok, so we're off and rolling again? great stuff.

awakenedwraith:

"why not deal with every case seperatly and treat evrybody as if they are different--".

Exactly my point, good idea, that would be a consistant method. I agree. Equality doesn't apply here, consistancy does.

"we hurt truly based on preference.--[snip]--and the homest, truly good people, don't rape because they just cant stomach it"

The point I was making was that we are (now) not just talking about the consumption of each other or even other animals, I am talking about how we (humanity) are conveniently ignoring the importance of morality as part of the 'norm'. The criminals are the easy ones to spot because they break the obvious rules that we (humanity) set, but 'seemingly' good, innocent people are doing bad things, a lot, and don't care to care. It's not as bad as murder or rape, but why stop once you decide that some bad things are okay as long as it pleases yourself and you can get away with it? In this respect, our "innocent good people" are just as bad as our evil murderers. This is the thing that guiles me.

"that is so fucked up"

Tell me about it!

sleepingwraith:

Sheesh, there's a lot of wraiths around here now, I'm feeling nervous.

"However, as creatures/living beings, there are certain things that make us on some level equal... "

All things that exist, exist. On this level we are all equal. Our 'scope' differs, a rock is pretty certain to only ever be a rock and that's the only exception to the rule I can think of because everything else beyond that has varying potentiality. Grouping beings by their similarities and branding them as equal is the thing I tend to rebel against here. Your point is noted and I will admit that I am a furiously pendantic little twat.

"which is of course what this whole discussion is trully about. The treatment of another living creature, correct? "

Oh yass. It is one of the big shiney main points, indeed. Yes. Correct.

"I assume you will agree that any law preventing women to vote or blacks to drink from white water fountains is unequal and immoral? "

It is inequal AND immoral, yes, but not immoral BECUASE it is inequal. Yes, we agree (but for the same reasons?). Those particular rules are based on equality and they happen to be immoral too, yes. Being pendantic again, yes, spotted it. Shutting up now.

"Now as I have expressed before a plant human and pig all have equal rights as far as living goes. "

Ah, but you said, and I quote --

"Don't over look my post just to debate a few words now.... "

Shit. That's told me. Ok, I wont. But now I'm interested to see what conclusion you are going to draw now that you have concluded that a plant, a pig, and a human all have an equal right to live. Are you going to quit meat? Nah, surely not? I feel you were building up to something then? May I stimulate you sir? (Best offer you've had all day eh?)

So, plant, pig and human are all equal in terms of their right to live. We all have to eat to live. We can eat plants exclusively and live. We can eat pig (animal meat) exclusively and live (well, actually you can't for long, but in the interests of balance let's pretend). We can eat plants and pigs and live. Which of the three options do you choose to do given that you know that a pig feels pain, love, joy, sadness, companionship, fun and fear (just like you) and plant feels some sort of version of basic pain, maybe. Hmmm? Stimulation!

MG

"a plant, a pig, and a human all have an equal right to live"

they all do. and the only reason why we do not eat people is because that is so disgusting, that we cant keep it down. kinda like raw cow brains. some people can stomach, others cant and the thought of it makes them cring. same thing with humans

"Wht cry for those that often cry? Instead, help them smile, and smile for those that smile."

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"Life is such sweet sorrow."

well... why not?

"Wht cry for those that often cry? Instead, help them smile, and smile for those that smile."

awakenedwraith:

"and the only reason why we do not eat people-- "

..got to stop you there, like I said before, I'm not talking exclusively about cannibalism anymore, I used it as a parallel for a form of abuse of morality. Eating each other is rare, yes, but all the other forms of abusing this 'equal right to life' is not. So killing, torturing, raping and even eating each other etc. etc. we understand and agree this to be wrong, but I argue, not because of any equality involved because there is no equality, it is unequal, there ARE exceptions. I will kill in self defence, eat another human to survive, torture someone to save the lives of many, rape if I'm the last person on earth (stretching it a bit here, but go with me) in these instances it is also ok, morally. We need to factor in 'consistency', and then we need to decide which side of the moral fence we stand and stand in it otherwise we sit on the fence as hypocrites for people like me to have a pop at.

The problem lies in the fact that we think these rights and wrongs are ours because we perceive them, we hold all the cards, these are our rules and so therefore everyone else and everything else had better dance to our tune. The problem with being the only higher-thinking species on a planet in the middle of nowhere deceives us into thinking that these rules belong to us. They do not! These higher concepts will be apparent to the first and next generation of Superior Artificial Intelligence we might create, or the Alien race that might arrive, or the new breed of thinking Chinchilla that evolves, and they might judge us as we have judged our inferiors and we 'might' all die by our own swords? Alternatively, we might all agree on the moral mistakes we have made/are making, change our established beliefs, habits, traditions and attitudes, agree we fucked up, then move on towards a better life for us all because that's the common goal of all higher thinkers (I assume). The second part of the change seems laughably impossible, but once upon a time, as we have been reminded, women were denied a vote and all we rich white guys had a pet nigger. "... and it seems that your choice to create change in this seemingly distasteful environment by increasing awareness of our shortcomings is based on the choice of progress which I can't refute at any level"

That, is a beautiful statement.

"well... why not?"

Well, I think I know why people don't want to change, but the point is my view is irrelevant, until the individual asks themselves that question and understands the answer then people like me will have to lump it and live amongst people like that every day. Living with injustice and feeling fairly helpless about it doesn't make your hair shine and your teeth turn whiter than white, but the truth is the truth and I would rather see that than the lie.

Got to go now, I have a guy called Cypher on the phone, he want's to know if I want to take a blue pill?

MG

Every single fucking time someone asks me why i am not eating meat, i tell them im a fucking vegetarian, next question is always "why?", its almost always said with an aggressive manner as if they are ready to tell me im wrong. As if they cant wait to confront me. I never go into details about why i dont eat meat, for others its disgusting, others like the fact that ignorance is bliss and others find it boring. And it fucking suits me down to the ground not to have to constantly explain myself. But here it goes, i dont want to eat anything that once had a face. Simple as that. The manner in which most animals are detained and then killed, to me, is cruel wrong and sick and i will not under any circumstances eat a dead carsass which has been pumped full of shitty chemicals, an animal that has been dead for so long, aswell as having a shitty life for our consumption. Im also well aware that me not eating meat will not save all the fucking animals ok but it gives me a clearer conscience. Im born this way, i adore all animals including fucking cows. If you dont, then fucking fine, eat them. And please will people stop saying that our bodies are made to eat meat. Shut up. I could bore you with all the reasons that it is healthier to not eat meat, you are not eating flesh, simple as that. For me, thats all it is about. If you hate vegetarianism then dont ask why someone doesnt eat meat. Enjoy you burgers cos i do not miss them. at all.

"whatever"

i have no problem with veggies or vegans cos my friend is vegan although i do find it rediculous on how much more money she has to spend just to get non leather things and clothes that dont have any animal fibers in them...which i think is silly cos say like a cow its used for everything use the milk when you cant anymore you use the meat and the skins for leather, its not like anythings going to waste like frogs legs. the whole of the animal is being used... but i salute the those veggies and vegans who can keep it up, i dont know how they can go a day without something from an animal. and from my friend it does give you bad skin cos your not getting the stuff you need that you would get from other food.*shrugs* and i know some people use the term "im going veggie" for weight issues because they think if they cut out meat then they'll loose weight quicker... i dunno but anyway i have no problem with veggies, just a slight problem with vegans, like me and my freind went into subway, i get a turkey sub and she gets a vegan sub....vegan sub? yea lol just salad... salad on bread no cheese no meat no nothing just salad...how...lovely lol sorry but i dont see how just salad could be nice seeing as most salad tastes like water lol but shes crazy over vegan ice cream and i think its...sour milk or something...i dunno but it very difficult to just go shopping for her cos i dont know what to buy her incase it has something meat in it or something she cant have cos it has animal products...its crazy i dunno how she does it, she certianly looked healthier when she was just veggie...vegan is extreme she even spend 200 pounds on non leather vegan shoes....crazy to spend so much on something your gonna grow out of eh? lol meh o well good luck to those vegan and veggies i know i could never do it... lol

"Why kill the bumblebee when your the pain in the ass?"

whow sorry i wrote so much lmao

"Why kill the bumblebee when your the pain in the ass?"

vegos are no different...... take this quote...... "expecting people to like you because you are a nice person is like expecting a bull not to charge at you because you are a vegetarian" ....... the bull is still gonna kill u....... even if u aint wearing cowhide.....

"always forgive your enimies, nothing annoys them as much."

"Mmm soilent green"

Vegetarians obviously have a right to eat what they want, meat eaters dont eat all meats, or all alternatives either. Its what you like and then its your morales that decide if you want something aswell, but mainly its your tastebuds that make you like or hate everything else.

Just consider the fact that when ww3 comes the wondering radioactive zombies will have to eat the chared carcus's of everything human or animal, cause there will be no sunlight coming through the nuclear winter

alragnadrog I really do understand your frustration. I often wonder how much I'm contributing to the 'hippy stereotype' when I politely state my reasons in case the person I'm talking to is a newcomer to meeting someone with my mindset. I really do wonder if a smack in the face and a "Fuck you" will make them think "Hey, these vegan people are really cool - and they've got attitude too!". It would certainly be a taste of the hegemony of which they are so unwittingly fond. But I'm a big softie Metal Giant who tries to walk my walk, and like my Iron counterpart, I choose to be who I want to be.

xloobyloox, I think your friend is possibly shopping in some really exclusive places, I'll bet her £200 shoes look superb but I know for a fact, especially nowadays, you can find stylish footwear and clothing a lot cheaper than that. An interesting fact that I recently learned was this: Think back to a time when you were young, I'm guessing around six or eight, think about who you were then, think about the things that mattered to you then. Now realise that there is not one physical atomic particle of that person still present in your body today, you are literally not the person you once were. I find that fact mind altering! My point is, when I was your age, I hated salads. I also hated sprouts, chocolate (can you believe that!) celery, foreigners (including Americans) and I loved to eat meat. That and a whole lot of things I'm too embarrassed to admit to. Thankfully I thought about my opinions, I tested them, realised a few things and I changed. I now love all of the above, even salads. " good luck to those vegan and veggies i know i could never do it " never say never xloobyloox, you could change!

blackstorm992, I take your quote "expecting people to like you because you are a nice person is like expecting a bull not to charge at you because you are a vegetarian" which is more about being liked than anything to do with vegetarianism except to highlight an interesting point in my favour I feel. As you rightly point out, a bull will kill you as look at you, regardless of your stylish synthetic fibres, higher thinking ability or ability to understand javascript. The bull cannot differentiate. We can. So why don't we behave like bulls in all aspects of our lives? Why bother? [leaves that question wide open in the interests of stimulating free thought]

aphfaneire, "Mmm soilent green" -- Exactly!! " but mainly its your tastebuds that make you like or hate everything else." That is definitely a major cause of "why". But what if I have a taste for Soilent Green? As a cannibal with a taste for all kinds of human animal flesh, my taste buds are dictating why, but is this ok with you if I eat your children? Why not? [leaves that question wide open in the interests of stimulating free thought] -- great post aphfaneire, especially the bits about zombies and nuclear winters, as a Metal Giant I love that shit!

MG