People hate vegetarians

somehow i saw this as your ultimate conclusion Metal Giant. simply dont eat meat. it is simple. but i like meat, and we could probably argue "facts" back and forth for years about whether or not meat is neccisary in ones diet. i believe meat is neccisary. not because McDs says so, but because when i go without meat for very long, well quite frankly i feel sick. and also, i have read numorous scientific studies which seem very plausable in my mind, detailing all the dietary sustenance that meat provides.

you are correct Metal Giant. you do not "have" to eat meat. we do not "have" to do much of anything. but in order for me to function properly, i do need meat. create a replacement for meat that is just as good, and i have no problem stopping.

as a side note - i dont eat meat often. my parents are hippies, i grew up on tofu (delicious btw) as well as other meat replacement products. i feel much healthier when i eat meat once every couple weeks at least.

oh and MG, i like you too. havent had a debate this interesting in a while. not much of a fan of the shock method myself though.

"I am Akba-Atatdia"

I eat meat, and don't care what others eat.

"Life is full of lemons, and the lemonade is sweet."

"somehow i saw this as your ultimate conclusion Metal Giant."

Nope. Simply not eating meat is but a small step to our ultimate goal as a civilized society of higher thinking animals. My ultimate conclusion is yet to be made

"but i like meat,"

I know you do. I used to like meat too. In my day I could eat a whole cow. I still salivate at a bacon sandwich. My instinctive animal instics are ever-present, but resistable. My urge to satisfy my selfish instincts are always with me. Do I eat the bacon sandwich? Do I throw away the litter? Do I fuck that girl? Self, self, self, me, me, me. But I 'choose' not to, because my ultimate aim is to be a useful, civilized and helpful higher thinker to us all. If I were to give in to my 'pleasure principle' (thanks for that Sigmund Freud) then I will begin my journey backwards from this goal and before you know it we have meat-eaters in every household, thieves, litterers, drug dealers, rapists and people who say 'Lol' fucking everything up for everyone else until we all completely devolve back to babarism and anarchy. Wait a minute, haven't I just described every urban cluster in the world?

"and we could probably argue "facts" back and forth for years about whether or not meat is neccisary in ones diet."

They wouldn't be any type of "fact" if they were arguable, they would be debatable theories. It is a fact that the human being does not have to eat meat. End of that particular debate. I'm sorry for you that you believe you are different, I will grant you that you may well be, but you would be 'special' for being so. There, that feels nice doesn't it? You're special.

" i have read numorous scientific studies which seem very plausable in my mind, detailing all the dietary sustenance that meat provides."

Your numerous scientific studies are all probably correct, you CAN eat meat and meat DOES have a lot of elements that you NEED to live. We can eat meat, we have done for thousands of years, meat has good stuff in it (and bad stuff, but I digress). Your scientific studies are plausible because they are true and factual. This is not my issue. Now, one last time - BUT - these essential ingredients are NOT EXCLUSIVE to meat alone. You can get them from other sources. Fact. Facty-poo. A golden chalice of factness. A fact mallet smacking fact pegs into the facty-like surface of fact mountain. It's also the truth. Therefore, you have, a, choice. And this choice will be based upon your awareness of your pleasure principle against your reality principle. 'Me me', or 'we, we'. Guess which one is the easiest choice? Lets quote our learned friend Patrish right now shall we? "I eat meat, and don't care what others eat." Thanks Patrish, you've no idea how helpful you've just been.

"create a replacement for meat that is just as good, and i have no problem stopping."

Ah, If I'm being honest, that's not going to happen either because perception is reality. No one will ever make a replacement for meat that is 'just as good' because no one will be allowed to make anything that will also change your perception of it being 'not meat'. It is a cop-out to wait for someone else to make the effort to change. The effort to change is your job. Mr.Freud would add at this point "But von must vant to change first".

"as a side note - i dont eat meat often."

This is a nice gesture towards the intelligent creatures that do make your food. They would surely thank you for eating less of them than Mr.& Mrs.Average.

"oh and MG, i like you too."

Give us a kiss you mysterious silhouette you.

"havent had a debate this interesting in a while."

Makes you all spunky doesn't it? I love a good 'un too.

"not much of a fan of the shock method myself though."

Well, you must at least respect my freedom of speech or you wouldn't be still with me? An admirable sign. My shock tactics are not pointless however, and I always try to back them up with considered thought and reason and offer them for debate. Hence, here we are.

Metal Giant

honestly, i do not know of any way to change my diet to where i get the same vitamins and minerals which make me feel like i can fuction, without including meat. my perception of meat has nothing to do with it. i can see where many stubburn headed fools could get dropped off at this point. meat is only somewhat a pleasure for me personally, but it is definately still a neccesity, although i do take great pleasure in eating it, that part is somethig i could do without quite easily. by all means inform us of this mysterious and wonderous diet if it exsists.

even if its the same slop they eat on Xion (the matrix) id gladly stop eating meat if i knew i would live just as healthy of a life.

here is a thought - perhaps there really is a psychological aspect of the act of eating meat that humans need. some of us have a need to rape?

"I am Akba-Atatdia"

Wyote,

Interesting subjects to discuss once again.

"honestly, i do not know of any way to change my diet to where i get the same vitamins and minerals which make me feel like i can fuction, without including meat."

There are ways for you to get the same vitamins, it would be an effort on your part to find it. I do not presume any in-depth skills of a qualified dietitian, in fact my food knowledge is pretty minimal, but I stand as testament that it is a lot easier than you might think. The only important vitamin that is not readily available elsewhere is vitamin B12 which was discovered only as recently as the 70's (I seem to recall) but if you get into the habit of reading the ingredience of the packaging of the food that you eat (always a good idea, vegetarian or not) you'll notice that nearly all your cereals have it added, sorry 'fortified', as par for the course. But, yes, I admit that the change of indifference to education is not one easily undertaken.

Time for a more educated vegetarian or vegan to chip in right now (unless they've all died off and I've been wrong all along).

"my perception of meat has nothing to do with it."

Well, when I said that "perception is reality" I meant something more specific than when I usually quote this trueism. In England, we have a meat substitute called 'Quorn' and it really does taste great. One of their products however are bacon rashers that are fashioned to look like a slice of pig muscle rasher much like a child might create one with Play-Doh. There's just something ironic about doing this I feel? Like the carnivore's are taking the piss, why make the stuff to resemble the thing we hate on principle? Hmmm, but once again I digress. My point here is, when presented with such a substitute, there is no way you would mistakenly think "Hmmm, a nice piece of meat" and it is this that i'm refering to. Your perception has to change at a different level than that of someone fooling you into eating it, because, I am saying, you wouldn't be fooled. Although Quorn sausages do come close.

"i can see where many stubburn headed fools could get dropped off at this point."

Yes, i agree. Is anyone still reading this?

"meat is only somewhat a pleasure for me personally"

Yes. It feeds your pleasure principle. I understand this.

"but it is definately still a neccesity"

Untrue but I've already explained why. I shall agree to disagree with you on this on your personal belief/experience.

"although i do take great pleasure in eating it, that part is somethig i could do without quite easily."

Yes, like quitting smoking, the will power exists, but the motivation must fuel it. Nice of you to recognise that the potential is at least within you somewhere.

"by all means inform us of this mysterious and wonderous diet if it exsists."

It is neither mysterious, nor wonderous, it is commonly understood as 'vegetarianism' and/or 'veganism'. Millions of people live like this and none of them are dead or dying from it. All that is required is understanding of ethics, some will power and er.. a fork?

"even if its the same slop they eat on Xion (the matrix) id gladly stop eating meat if i knew i would live just as healthy of a life."

This is great news to hear. On two levels; Firstly, you quote a film trilogy who's ultimate theme is the human power of choice (and the concequence of apathy - who can forget the scene with Cypher in the first movie, eating that steak and saying "Ignorance is bliss"? Lost on a lot of people I feel.) Secondly, I can guarantee you that the vegetarian/vegan diet is varied and exciting (It has to be), healthy and beneficial. So beneficial it would not simply give you "just as healthy of a life" but it would EXCEED your normal life expectancy on health terms (plus ethical ones) because you would be omitting animal protein and animal carbohydrates from your intake. Thusly your chances of heart disease would be significantly reduced and the chances of falling victim to certain cancers (not all, granted) would be eliminated. How's that for a promise?

Why oh why is this not common knowlege? Can anyone guess?

"here is a thought - perhaps there really is a psychological aspect of the act of eating meat that humans need. some of us have a need to rape?"

:-| The psychological aspect that I have been suggesting all along is that of the problematic need for people to satisfy their pleasure principle. The 'me, me, me, me' against the 'we, we, we, we'. I made the point, right from the very start, that raping a woman, then torturing, killing and eating her would be an example of me taking this principle to its extreme and that at a lesser level, the eating of meat is the same principle in action. Humans are animals too. We do not want to explore this phenomena because it may expose hypochracy in us all and force a change that would 'inconveinience' us. Ignorance truly is bliss, eh Cypher? Hence the many and varied reasons that ill-informed omnivores present as justification for speciesism. But I am neither a vegan nor a vegetarian myself myself (although I've been living like one for six years now) because I WOULD eat a human in principle. Can anyone guess what this principle would be? (clue: it's nothing to do with my pleasure principle but my belief in...?)

Has anyone been listening?

Until then, Metal Giant has work to do.

vegetarians and vegans live longer more healthy lives? since when? the ones ive known personally are sick all of the time, and have a horrid skin tone usually.

assuming i can get the same vitamins and minerals from pills. whats a poor college kid to do? i do not nearly have enough money to maintain such a diet. am i doomed to be unethical against my own will? are some of us forced to rape?

you run under the assumption that vegetarians are healthier, i run under the assumption meat eaters are healthier. the discussion is going nowhere at this point. and again i bring up the problem of "facts" which is the only thing that might possibly allow for progression.

so many things are lost on people when it comes to the matrix... dont even get me started

"I am Akba-Atatdia"

"vegetarians and vegans live longer more healthy lives? since when?"

Since about the 70's after the discovery of lack of vitamin B12, the last good argument that omnivores had against vegetarianism. Prior to that, the omnivore's had a bit of a point. But that was then, and this is now.

"the ones ive known personally are sick all of the time, and have a horrid skin tone usually."

Believe it or not there are actually fuckwitted vegetarians and vegans in the world. Fat ones too. Humans are still humans. Some 'vegetarians' continue to wear leather and eat fish (eh? What is that all about? You're not a fucking vegetarian if you do this you.) No, a Tuna fish is still an intelligent creature, sorry they have the same rights as your cows. One annoying thing about vegetarians is that the really smart and healthy ones never advertise the fact, they're far too respectful of people's opinions to ever get in anyone's face over the issue. How very dull. Sort yourselves out eh? At least have the courage of your convictions eh? I put it to you that the unhealthy vegetarians you have met are either unfortunately afflicted with some other problem or is are all fucking boneheads.

"assuming i can get the same vitamins and minerals from pills"

I never once mentioned the necessity to pop pills. You can do, it won't hurt to suppliment if you feel the need to, but they're so bloody expensive aren't they? Oh no, not for me.

"whats a poor college kid to do?"

Take advantage of the free internet access, parties and shopping discounts?

"i do not nearly have enough money to maintain such a diet."

Nonsense, it is cheaper to eat fresh vegetables, nuts, beans, pulses, pasta etc. etc. than to load up with expensive slabs of animal. I am certain that you do not suggest that it is cheaper to live off fast food and microwave meals? Convenience is the only argument against I will accept. Argue that and I'd call you a lazy bastard!

" am i doomed to be unethical against my own will?"

Nope, because you are a creature of free will, a higher-thinking intelligent human being and as such you will learn and prevail. You determine your own 'doom' for the most part.

"are some of us forced to rape?"

A pertinent question with an interesting answer. My views;

Those creatures that are unaware of the self, that are true slaves to their own pleasure principle, that have no ability or understanding to reason their choice of action, those creatures that are so below their naturally evolved 'basic standard' that they rape, torture and murder without knowlege, then those are the creatures that could be construed as being 'forced' to be the slaves of their own desires. These wretched beings actually deserve our sympathy, understanding and our guardianship. But those of whome who do possess the abilty to think within and beyond their basic scope, those that do know the difference of right and wrong and that are aware of the 'right to consent' - they are by no means brainless slaves of their pleasure principles, but intellegent, educated, voluntary abusers of it. Well it is these people (and not innocent animals) that should be tested on for cancer cures, slaughtered and made into burgers, have beauty products injected into them, put into speeding cars as live accident crash-test 'dummies', dissected, abused, tested, and made useful to the rest of us because of that very failing within them. Yet another reason why I am not 'technically' a vegetarian with views like this. However, when I am president of all space, these will be my first mandates.

Vote Metal Giant today.

"you run under the assumption that vegetarians are healthier, i run under the assumption meat eaters are healthier. the discussion is going nowhere at this point. and again i bring up the problem of "facts" which is the only thing that might possibly allow for progression."

You are going to be such a smart asset to the human race when you begin to question everything. (Never question the Metal Giant again though, ok?) I shall ignore your impertanance this one time and praise you for your valiant resistance to one person's point of view, however correct. Being a smart person, you would also be aware that it is entirely possible for me to go to www.google.com type in a few key words and come up with an impossibly long list of documents that both support and disprove the facts. I would not be presumptious of your intellegence to then copy and past some URL's that taint the facts in my favour. All knowlege must be self-sought to be truly worthwhile and all beliefs must be formed on one's own to have any credence. So what I am saying in a nutshell is go look and learn for yourself.

"so many things are lost on people when it comes to the matrix... dont even get me started "

See? I knew you were worth the effort! (Me too)

MG

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"Life is such sweet sorrow."

"ok ive read enough... "

Then why go on?

"metal giant i see what youve been saying and its intersting the way you think. "

I'm glad you find this intersting. I find that in and of itself, interesting.

"but i suppose it takes a wraith to put a gaint to sleep."

I await my slumber with eager anticipation of impending boredom.

"answering you question if no one has yet:"

Well, yes, the question you will assume to answwer has been addressed already. But if you've been keeping up you would have known this?

" the only boundaries are the ones set by your limitations."

Boundaries, it could be argued, are limitations, so think again about the question. What mental mechanism is it that imposes these 'limitations' upon oneself, oh powerful and wise, but sleeping Wraith? (A clue, nay the answer, is in the previous writings that you have obviously chosen to ignore, because I cannot imagine that such a forceful young soul as yourself would be presumtious enough to jump head first into the deep end without prior knowledge?)

"yes you can rape the girl, sure go ahead and eat her while your at it if you can stomach it."

In the absence of an intelligent reason why I should not (my fellow debatees exempt) I might just do that. After that why don't I pop around your house for a game of Pokemon or play Lord Of The Rings on your Playstation?

"but if your caught you will suffer and if thats ok with you then great! ^_^

^_^? Why not add a 'LOL' and really expose your intellect? Ooh look, what's that just flown by the window? Oh yeah, it's "The Point" followed by the wrong end of "The Stick", go chase, go on, go chase, there's a good little Wraith, dawww, he's asleep again.

"now for the rest of this annoying ass thread."

Oh the slaughter! Please.. I beseech thee, no more.

"if your a vegatarian because your body cant digest meat im sorry."

You are truly a merciful Wraith, but as a vaginatarian, can I still munch the pink stuff?

"but if you beleive that hurting an animal is cruel-"

I do, but also, if you read this thread correctly, I am not too far off eating brainless fuckwitted animals like you who sit at home watching their Lamborghini's rust.

" and unusual than have some fucking sempathy for the plants your munching on."

No, you're going to have to reapeat that, I just can't think down to your level. Sorry. Do you mean that I should have sympathy for the plant life? How droll. Maybe I've underestimated you?

" yeah! "

Is this the point where we are expected to hail "Go Jerry, Go Jerry!"?

"they have feeligns too."

You stupid thick cunt.

Did that hurt? If so, then you must be right! I shall rethink my whole ethos. Thank you Sleepingwraith.

"so get the fuck over yourselves."

Yes, I used to be a contortionist, but I couldn't make ends meet.

"GOOD NIGHT!"

...and so to bed. Nighty night little one.

Sleep tight.

kisses,

Metal Giant

quote:

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All knowlege must be self-sought to be truly worthwhile and all beliefs must be formed on one's own to have any credence. So what I am saying in a nutshell is go look and learn for yourself.

---

"I am Akba-Atatdia"

You'll go very, very far in life with that attitude.

You may not come to the same conclusions that I have done in my journey (still ongoing) but at the very least your beliefs will be earned, (not inherrited, influenced or non-existant) and for that you get Metal Giant's silver medal of respect.

(You get a gold one when you agree with me. They're my medals, I make the rules)

MG

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"Life is such sweet sorrow."

"Then why go on?" - "same reason as you do, cus i can "

Well let's hold hands and rant some more eh?

"and yet you assume ive been keeping up,"

From the mouths of babes.

" -or as i like to say, putting up with your winded attempts for interaction with others in which you feel superior."

You are assuming that I assume superiority.

" i read some and since it was the same gargabe over and over i decided to jump ahead."

Your admition belies your ignorance to the conversation thus far. That is perfectly fine but it is tiresome to reitterate points previously made to someone who can't be bothered to join in a debate armed with prior knowledge. Why did you not just decide to jump ahead to 'The End' and save the trouble?

"im sorry did i miss understand that talking about food is "deep"? yeah i guess i did"

Yes you did guess correctly, you did mis-understand. We were not merely talking about food. I can't persuade you to read the whole conversational 'garbage' so you'll never know until you do, will you?

" i bet youd like that ay, another person who thinks they are something?"

Ay. That'd be nice. What do you think you are then, if not something?

"heres a good reason, chances are the bitch will spray maise in your eyes til they burn out and then kick you in the nutts leaving you in the dark alley of which your coward self would attempt to attack her."

Ho ho. You really have got the shitty end of the stick haven't you? Let me at least put you out of your misery before I pass my own pancreas with laughter. The metaphore of the female abuse/rape/cannibalism was a device used to illustrate a moral and ethical quagmire, however, seeing as you 'think' we are only talking about food, this is a little lost on you now isn't it? If you had bothered to read through the garbage before your judgment then you would have discovered that I wouldn't really have attacked anyone who wouldn't consent to me doing so. Oh, look at me, going over the same old 'garbage' again.

" learn to bare some shame and get off your high horse."

I bare my fair share of shame, but after that 'I got the fuck over myself' and onto my high horse. Care to have a go at at least climbing on with me?

"wow metal gaint im wrong, your so great i wish i could be as smart as you"

Oh, you're just out to make me blush. It's not difficult at all. I'm not special. Really.

"insulting some one half you age and feeling great about it. boy golly can you teach me to do that."

Well, I could do, but I would prefer to teach you the importance of 'starting out on the right foot'. First of all, if you wish to avoid insults, do not begin by attempting to insult someone twice your age or that someone will respond in kind. One reaps what one sows.

"Do you mean that I should have sympathy for the plant life?" - "yes i do-"

Then I feel sorry for you.

" is this too much out of your league to comprehend?- assuming animals have feelings and plants dont..?"

Tell me sleepingwraith, in all seriousness, if we agree to drop the insults and agree to read and try to understand without skipping ahead or guessing what each other is really suggesting, will it be worth our while for us to actually touch upon that last point with any degree of earnestness? It is a good point and one I would like to explore with you if you are willing to venture forth from a fresh start? Consider it an Olive branch, but please let me finish this post with a few more quips, it's really fun!

"I just can't think down to your level. Sorry."

Oh do try and humour me. That last comment did touch a nerve didn't it?

" Mmm how fresh. your quite smart, tell me did you come up with that on your own."

Thank you, yes I did.

"You stupid thick cunt. " - "im glad you think so highly of me."

That was then, but what will happen next I wonder? Stupid thick cunt, or clever mass debater?

"by the way is your real name michael jackson, just a stray thought."

Don't be afraid of a little masculine affection. MJ didn't fuck those kids, he made love to them. There's a difference.

Metal Giant

Man who cares. So we eat fuckin animals oh well. If you don't want to then don't. Its never gunna change. NEVER. We have eaten them from time began. We will breed cows, and eat them. Harvest them. In cases of certain cultures, cats, dogs. Fish, shrimp. ALL of it. As humans we eat it all. Its not gunna change. So fuck. Give it up. lol.

"Aint flashed a smile in a long while...."

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"Life is such sweet sorrow."