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Universe : design or necessity?

User Thread
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Angelfire is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Universe : design or necessity?
This is gonna be in parts. And Pat don't answer with random shit without reading. All comments are welcome. The verdict over random/design will appear in the last part, so I am not concluding now whether or not it is design or not.

Part I : The Apparent Design in Life

Life is extraordinarily complex. Each organism is a remarkable body of trillions of cells all doing little jobs, in complete harmony and in the end, the thing works in elegantly! Certainly, life coudn't have formed in such a complex form RANDOMLY?

Well its true, life could not appear like this all in one go for certain. But, Rome wasn't built in a day and neither were human beings. Fossils clearly show a gradul transformation of life, with several biological crisis and mass extinctions.

Life, so the theory holds, began simply as a self replicating protein. Though with each replication, mistakes were made, making it a slightly different self replicating protein. Some changes were bad, making replication impossible, others made it replicate faster or a variety of other attributes. Those without good mutations died with less "offspring" those with good mutations eventually replaced those without. That is the princple. Through it, given enough time (and we are talking about hundreds of millions of years) anything is possible. Even the vast variety of animals and humans we have today.

The fossil record is clear that animals have changed gradually through time. Genetics evidence also show which species are our closest "parents" namely, they show that "fish" split into "amphibians and fish" and when "amphibians" split into "amphibians and reptiles", when "reptiles" split into "reptiles and mammals" and "mammals" split into "mammals and man". Finally, we observe a process within our genes, which show that each generation of humans mutates slightly : this would allow for Darwinian Evolution.

Now, this doesn't disqualify the possibility of God at all. It is perfectly possible that God simply used evolution as a tool to make man. And it is also true that this universe could have been one where life is impossible. One in which the proteins are incapable of existing and so obviously cannot replicate and give life. What can explain that the universe has the right attributes to give life? God?

I'll attempt to explain that in the next part.

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"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"
 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I smell a trilogy, are you a wakowski brother? If so, your fired!

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Angelfire is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Nail-biting isn't it?

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"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"
 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
life and all of its complexities are only as complex as we are ignorant, its complete relative. Bacteria is more complex than your understanding because it is life, but it is generally a far less complex or evolved organism, and it even helps us live. If life itself ends up being fairly uncomplicated, then what?

Life is really most likely just energy or the movement of anything, (energy transferrence). How did you protien start replicating, what was the inital force of movement or acitivity. Lightning?, what started it, etc., god?, where did god come from, who got him moving?

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Angelfire is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
"life and all of its complexities are only as complex as we are ignorant, its complete relative."
That's not entirely true. THough I have used that argument, but not against life. Because, life is something that needs to "work". Its like a machine, you break it, IE kill it.

If life was setup randomly, without God, then a thousand things would go on with our bodies (and a thousand things can go wrong, but not for most of us). But Darwinian Evolution provides an explanation how the bodies can still function with a Designer Deity. But it raises the question of how a universe where life is possible at all was created.

On the definition of life : I would say anything which can reproduce itself and the information that defines it.

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"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"
 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
thats biological life, and not a source either

What do you mean a thousand things would go on? Evolution has had a lot of time to get things as solid as they are, what were you meaning?

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that patape is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
things could have happened anyway whatsoever and we would say "wow isnt life so amazing nd complex" we just get customed and get attached to things.. first of all "complex" is only due to our brains with its limited limited focaus.. a pile of mud is amazing everything is amazing.. it depends on perspectve.. i guess its amazing id you say so..design? anything in the universe anything at all can be considered of a design.. big deal we live than die who created god?? whats going aon

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"no quote until i copyright it.."
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that patape is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
hi gawod i love uyou thaogh

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"no quote until i copyright it.."
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Angelfire is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Sorry, I meant "a thousand things could go WRONG" if we assumed that all the life in the world was just made randomly, all in one go. As opposed to gradually, as evolution says.

"things could have happened anyway whatsoever and we would say so amazing nd complex"
If it wasn't for darwinian evolution (AND there is no God), life would not work. I mean if it was created purely by randomness, the machine of life would not work. It is fact that a machine is easier to break then to make, hence, if it were random, they would most likely be broken (do any random change to a machine, in the vast majority of cases, it works far less well or is broken, IE dead). But we see lots of functional life, so either there is God or something else at work. that something else is obviously Darwin. If it were random, without Darwin, life would be BROKEN

But that doesn't disprove God, evolution could have been only God's tool for creating life. And that's what I mean by complexity, not that its hard to understand, but that if it were random, it most certainly would not work.

Luckily we have Darwin, he shows have the randomness over a long period of time could create this complexity.

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"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"
 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
i c

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Angelfire is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Glad to see I can be clear sometimes

Do any of the christians/muslims have objections so far?

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"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that patape is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
but if everything is caused (wether we can analyze it all or not) doesnt that contradict the bible or whatever where it says god gave us free will.. if so thats random chance and things wouldnt keep intact the way they do including the balances.. unless partly random which autmaticaly balances.. but there shouild be a strong causeation everywwhere or else things would be broken like you said..

one big question ..why is it hard to think that everything is was alwasy around (matter energy) cause isnt god comming from nothing more mind boggling?

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"no quote until i copyright it.."
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Angelfire is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
"but if everything is caused (wether we can analyze it all or not) doesnt that contradict the bible or whatever where it says god gave us free will."
I didnt say everything was caused...

"one big question ..why is it hard to think that everything is was alwasy around (matter energy) cause isnt god comming from nothing more mind boggling?"
Well, saying everything is made of energy doesnt mean all that much to people like us who arent physicists.

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"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that patape is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
or whatever it is (i said matter to) energy can cover so much things too.. or just everything in general (as forms cahnge).. << why is that hard to think that everything was always here? isnt it more logical than god comming out of nothing? oi think so .. or sorry i love you god just adresing soidea gmirgn

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"no quote until i copyright it.."
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Angelfire is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Well it couldnt have always been there. Because the Big Bang Theory, means there was a begining. But not necessarily a God created begining.

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"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"
Universe : design or necessity?
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