Fate

I often find myself pondering the existence of fate in this place. Each conclusion I reach matches the one preceeding it which is that fate doesnt exist. The only thing I know as a human being is that I control what I do (in a physical sense). Fate does not lead us through everyday activities. Things happen all by chance including room for error ( such as making mistakes or having accidents). If fate did exist, it would have to exist as an individual whole for everyone and not individually within us each. Our interactment with eachother should be enough for people to realize that fate doesnt exist. Things are constantly changing meaning fate would have to be very refined and precisely accurate without flaws for everything to take place as it should. Which to me sounds silly.

For those of you not following me right now im gonna break it down like this. Think of the daily things some of you do, even the little things like going to the grocery store and getting whatever items you need. Everyone in the store has to at least share some sort of fate with you due to the constant interactment of people. For example the checkout person when your ready to purchase your items. (Say his name is Bill). In order for Bill and yourself to serve your fates, he must interact with you and take your money for the items you purchased. Hense it would have to be a joined fate. And even then you would have to include animals and insects( like the mosquito that bit you and now you went and bought some OFF). Happens by chance. Something so complicated as to programming everyday activities between billions and billions of people couldnt even take place in a million computers. Think about that.

If you wanted to get technical a form of fate does exist. The fate if neccesity. Obvioulsy every living human being is going to breathe, eat, sleep, and die etc. But as far as non neccesity things, we choose what takes place.


sorry if that was too farfetched for anyone, you all have really good opinions.

"We can only live one day at a time, When we start trying to live days in advance, that is when we get hit by a truck....."

This is all good and fine (not to mention confusing), but what if you introduce religion. I mean how could God predetermine our fate (through mathematical computations, hocus pocus, or whatever) and at the same time justify sending some of us to heaven and some to hell. He couldn't. So this leaves us with the conclusion that we are all separated from *mathematical* fate. eg. bowling pins are destined to fall over in a pre-set pattern due to the angle of which the ball hits the head pin, the velocity, the weight, etc. At the same time, you most certainly can't prove (yet) that the brain/conscience works with 100% predictable results as a response to stimuli. eg. 100 people in alternate and perfectly similar universes (DON'T go there!) will not always respond the same to a like introduction into the environment. The point is, that I beleive that we are able to make our own decisions unlike inanimate object which are governed by laws of physics.

""How do you know we exist? Maybe we don't exist." -Vivi FF9"

Not to be contrary but I would have to see the other side of it. Would you send someone to jail without a trial or arrest them beecause they planned to something?
An Omnipotence of GOD is that knowning that you will seek to do, HE will set to change you but HE has given you over to your own way (waywardness) which is the Test (trial) by your actions you are Judged.

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."
[  Edited by cturtle at   ]

"Not to be contrary but I would have to seee the other side of it. Would you send someone to jail without a trial or arrest them beecause they planned to something?"
No but that's because we are almost never certain. And I'm pretty sure conspiracy or something like that is punishable by law.
But even then, God being omniscient would already know we would sin (as an absolute truth) and so should send us to hell.
If we can only better ourselves by commiting these sins and THEN being punished, then that means sins are good and are a means (in conjunction with punishment) to self improvement.

Thus sins are good and we need to commit more of them

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

Well, that's a new way of looking at it. But on the other hand, if you were punished for *everything* that you do wrong, in a sence you would already be in hell. You know, not being able to do anything fun and all. Or even worse, not being able to choose what you get to do about it either!

""How do you know we exist? Maybe we don't exist." -Vivi FF9"

Ya know there is scripture (NT) that basically states that very thing!
But they call it purgatory.
Sorrry about my lack of time: Haste makes waste.
So may be I should go forward, I sense disturbed emotions about the subject of GOD.
Look at the other side of existence? Although you may not believe in GOD, by HIS gift you have life in a realm of HIs creation. Wheather or not you believe in HIM, you have your life with the right to live it as you will. This is your right and your responsibility. According to how you live life depends if you should receive the eternal life, another (or the true) gift. Why should you be angry, annoyed, what ever?
Of course you might say Why am I bound by Adam's decision to partake of the fruit of knowledge (power) instead of the fruit of life (eternal)? A valid question but man choose and is responsible for his decision. Just as past generations choose in their greed to pollute the St. John River with industerial waste till this generation does not swim in it and few would eat the fish that come from the waters being barely fit for watercraft usage. That is your inhertance from your fathers, such as it may be.
In the Ancient World, man existed with power and abilities beyond those of modern man but man abused the power misusing the abilities. So man proved his unworthyness and they were taken away and his existence shortened.
This should be an obvious moral 'Don't abuse your gifts', use your (gift) knowledge to help one another not to Lord over one another. But man choose not to seek GOD's Will, rather they put forth their own willfulness. GOD sent prophets to men at various times to warn man of his foolish ways and even His Son, Jesus whom they call Christ. It is said that Jesus could have destroyed the world to rule over it but He choose to seek GOD's Will and died on the cross so man would have more time to turn from his willfulness. But man chose not accept the Way so each man is responsible for his own chooses. As man's knowledge and power increases so does the destructiveness of his willfulness. The farther man moves away from GOD, the harder it becomes to turnaway from his waywardness.
Those who suceed in passing through the gaunlet, are rewarded with the gift of life eternal and the restoration of the (powers) gifts because they have proven themselves worthy and will not abuse the power.

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."
[  Edited by cturtle at   ]

"In the Ancient World, man existed with power and abilities beyond those of modern man but man abused the power misusing the abilities. So man proved his unworthyness and they were taken away and his existence shortened."

How so?

I agree with most of your post though. Its in human nature to want to lord over one another (the ironic thing is that they tended to reproduce more and have even more lordish people ). Though we could *solve* the problem by GMing people into being less selfish

"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."

Yes, I've heard of this *theory* as well (no proof) It went somthing like this: The lord created man in his own image and in doing so, granted him his "powers" as well, eg. being able to think about where to go and then being there. Of course after man sined, he was no longer in Gods image. Therefore he lost most of Gods "powers" As man became more and more sinful, he became less and less like God. I've also heard about God telling modern people that we have been "reduced to riding around in iron cages" BTW iron cages is refering to cars.

""How do you know we exist? Maybe we don't exist." -Vivi FF9"

Yes it is also written that GOD made them lower for a little time but that HE would raise them up!

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

Fate: First one should look into the concept of fate. If you take it only what happens to you alone it becomes problematic.Fate is not restricted to one alone.If you take it ina wider perspective of the Order Of Things the the word Fate has a deep meaning. Then one can enquire into the concept and understand the real meaning of the word fate.Even if you take Fate individually, even then it is Order Of Things on which the universe is supported and going on.That means fate is not be looked upon as a curse on human beings or rather on the whole universe.The Order Of Things hgelps one to express and experience the nature of the order through a human body and mind. If one understands the nature of the order there is all the possibilty of changing the fate as future, or there remains no necessity to cahnge the order. In both cases one can function with this limited body and mind and make oneself happy as well as others also. There is much more to understand than what I have put in now. For the time being bye, bye. Wish you all good day.
Thanks with regards
Lovingly
Vasudev_60

"The natural urge to be independant means dependancy is an erroneous concept."

Fate is what you , the indivual makes it, we create our own inviroments.

"A coward dies many times, a Valient faces death one time!"

Yes, I've heard of this *theory* as well (no proof), well one look at the pyramids I would wonder how they were built? But I wasn't speaking to that age to begin with, was I?
The emphrasis of the biblical records (?) & just how far back do they go is highly questionable. Rather I was impling that having fore-knowledge of events does not mean one should particularly seek to change them? That EVIL (negative) things come upon us, doesn't mean we have to let them rule over our lives. We have a choice as individuals, I don't swim in the river doesn't mean I don't swim. That I don't fish the river doesn't mean I don't enjoy it, I just don't enjoy it as much as I could or should! I didn't pollute the river, arrogance & ignorance of mankind did.Such is fate so I accept that truth.

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

While you do have a good "motto" it is flawed in the sence that people don't have the choice of being sinners or not. The fact that even if you do pretty good things throughout your life means nothing really, unless you are buhddist, taoist, or the like where everyones goal is nirvanna.

""How do you know we exist? Maybe we don't exist." -Vivi FF9"

What little "fate" that can be said to exist is found in your chromosomes. Any talk of predestination or bad things happening to good people is just weightless whiny bullshit spread by the risk-aversion apologentsia. I do, however, believe luck - random dumb luck - exists aplenty. But luck is not pre-ordained.

I'm coming in a little late to this thread, but I have to respond to cturtle's July 19 posts starting "Not to be contrary..." and his question: "Would you send someone to jail without a trial or arrest them beecause (sic) they planned to something?"

Our friendly constabulary does this all the time, only worse - the arrestees don't even plan to do something. I speak of laws passed for our "protection," making the possible results of our actions punishable offenses regardless of the actual outcomes. Sounds like something from "Minority Report," doesn't it? But it's actually as mundane as traffic laws. For instance, we are fined, sometimes heavily, sometimes to the extent of loss of driving privileges or in extreme cases sentenced to jail time, for the offense of speeding. Even if no one was injured, suffered property loss or damage, or was so much as inconvenienced, it might have happened, so the guilty must be punished for driving faster than whatever arbitrary limit was established by the politics of the moment.

To return to the theme, what the state is doing here is attempting to control fate, the very existence of which this forum is questioning, and which I deny. Is controling fate a proper role for government? If so, genetic engineering is an appropriate avenue for government control -- but I risk (and we don't want that, do we?) crossing over into another Forum with that line of thought.

"I love you to the height, and depth, and breadth my soul -- is that a cheeseburger?"

Spectacular post....

I have always believed that prevention is not the government's job. The government's job is punishment.

You should be allowed to drive stoned, drunk, half dead or assleep.

If, however, you hit anyone, touch anyone, or kill anyone, the punishment should be so harsh that the "laws" of speed control and driving defensively arise from a need of self-preservation, not fear of being ticketed.

although this is totally off topic, I had to respond.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."