About the war......

um havent u heard that two wrongs dont make a right? how can you put out fire with fire? And isnt it us interfering that caused this in the first place?

"have a cake"

Dingle is right on this matter. Saddam Hussein is evil yet there is no actual threat to the United States. Chemical weapons were used but they were used with the blessing of the United States. And the claims that this war is for the Iraqi people is absolutely ridiculous. U.N sanctions have killed over 1,000,000 people in Iraq and the United States is the leading forced behind that action. We have no right to talk about terrorist and murderers when we are responsible for that many deaths. The government doesn't give a damn about the people of Iraq. It is sickening how George Bush is willing to kill thousands of people just to win the next election. This whole "war" is just another propaganda move to fool the American people and make them follow bush by being "patriotic". Bush doesn't want people to realize that 2,000,000 people have lost their jobs since he took office. He is merely diverting attention away from his obvious failures and he does not care about how many people will die in the process. THERE HAVE BEEN NO CHEMICAL WEAPONS FOUND IN IRAQ. And people claim to have gotten reliable information? CNN is the most ridiculous joke of a news corporation I have ever seen, second only to FOX. If you want the real story, try ABC, or NBC. And finally,as for the price of oil. How much is oil worth? Three dollars a gallon? That is your fucking price? I don't give a shit if you were commander in chief of your own fucking platoon. How much are you willing to pay for a cheaper price on oil? Thousands of innocent civilians? Because that is what is happening in Iraq. I know that I am not willing to make pay that price. Very well, don't fight and take away my computer, i would rather that happen than be responsible for innocent people being killed. All I can say is that I can sleep at night. And mr. walts, how can you possibly talk about the price of gas. You murder people. You do not protect your country. You attack other countries. You are merely the stupid puppets controlled by a malicious, and greedy government. "great country of ours" You are so blinded by this "great country of ours" that you can't realize even the simplist truths.If everyone just did what the fuck they want, then what is the point of this "great country of ours" You have to discern between right and wrong before you decide to kill thousands of people. This is not physics, its simple logic.So maybe i would be speaking German. Maybe i wouldn't live in a fancy house, but I would be satisfied and find myself at PEACE because I wouldn't be responsible for the deaths of innocent people, not any different than from you or me.

"An eye for an eye, and while you're at it, ta"

I can't say I dissagree with anything you said sokka.

Which is surprising, taking into account the fact that a lot of anti-war people are quite idiotically illogical.

I'm not anti-war persay... I think sometimes wars are necessary, unfortunate as that may be.

I am anti-THIS-war.

"Avoid the mantlepiece when you're poking the fire"

I totally agree with you guys

I hear a lot of "how do you think you got your freedom" crap from pro-war people. They're lumping it all together. Not all wars are good, and this one definitely isn't.

First, my quoye says,"Wars are not won by dying for your country, they are won by making the other poor bastard die for his country!" Barring any spelling mistakes, those are words to live by as a soldier in these trying times.
Also, I'd like to see if any of you liberal panty-wastes know who uttered those immortal words. I bet that 9 out of 10 of you idiots couldn't understand or live up to the ideals behind that statement.
I'd also like to thank mr. walts for his service to his country and me as a citizen of this wonderful nation. Thank you for putting your life on the line. I, myself, am joining the military in some form in the near future. I feel it is necessary for those of us who actually possess the intestinal fortitude to stand up for what is right and good and true do so before our country is overrun by liberal pussies who would rather appease tyrrants than kill tyrrants.
Those who bitch about our society and government are the ones who usually benefit most from its capitalism and freedom. You are allowed to complain about a system that educates you for free, gives you money when you can't find work(welfare and unemployment benefits), and lets you vote in your leaders at all levels of government. Seems like a pretty nice hand that has been dealt to you. So you might consider taking your concerns to those you elected rather than bad mouth the people who fought, and will fight to allow you to continue enjoying that hand that has been so graciously dealt you.

In other words...SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!!

"Wars are not won by dying for your country, they a"

Hi tanker, welcome to the forum. Quite the emotional outburst there. You didn't really say much, so I'll respond to whatever I can.

I feel it is necessary for those of us who actually possess the intestinal fortitude to stand up for what is right and good and true

I'm right there with you on this one, but what's being debated on this forum is not whether or not one should stand up for what is right, but rather whether or not this invasion was right and good and true to begin with. I'm sure you'll agree that Iraqi soldiers have quite the intestinal fortitude to be fighting against the strongest millitary force on the planet, but you'll feel they're not doing the right thing by defending Saddam Hussein. Similarily, while I feel the soldiers fighting in this war THINK they're "liberating Iraq", and "ridding the world of terrorism", they are actually just securing an oil supply for Bush. On what basis do you say it is a good war?

...and lets you vote in your leaders at all levels of government. Seems like a pretty nice hand that has been dealt to you. So you might consider taking your concerns to those you elected rather than bad mouth the people who fought

Bush wasn't elected, the vote in Florida was rigged. Al Gore won that election. If I thought taking my concerns to Bush or any other politician would have any positive effect, I would do it. The huge anti-war protests consisting of many more people than just little ol' me are having virtually no effect. My vote is worth less to Bush than Iraqi oil. You do the math.

I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.

Apparently my reply fell through so I'll try again. DO NOT bad mouth the Armed Forces or those in them. I, and others like me, will and have served our country so that you don't have to if you choose not to. It is an insult to us and the memories of those who fought and died throughout history to defend this great nation.
Bush was elected by the ELECTORAL COLLEGE!!! Not some old bastard who hasn't voted since FDR. If you don't like the rules then move elsewhere or lobby to change things to fit your agenda, but don't bitch about losing in a system that works more often than not.
Maybe you should move to Syria where the government is more on your end of the spectrum. Seeing as you have little ideological differences with tyrrany. It is more appropriate to protect your nation's interests and equally appropriate to protect people of the world that cannot protect themselves.
My final question is Doyou know who uttered the words in my Quote? If you do then you get a cookie.

"Wars are not won by dying for your country, they a"

THANKS tanker!!

I think we will get along just fine. Im glad to see some one that see's things the way I do.

I guess they dont relize that most countrys REQUIRE there men to serve 2 years in the military wheather they want to or not as soon as they turn of age. Just some thing to think about people, what if the US did that? What opinion's would you have then if you were made or told to go to war?

Desert Storm Veteran/ First Cavalry Division

"Have you thanked a Vet for your freedom lately?"

btw, I could answer your question and get "a cookie" but it wouldnt be fair so ill see if any one else can answer it.

"Have you thanked a Vet for your freedom lately?"

Walts, my two best friends from high school are/were in the Navy(one probably just got back from action), both my grandfathers were in the Navy, a close friend of my family's was a Marine in Vietnam, two friends of mine from college were Marines in Okanawa, and I am Joining the Army in the Armored Cavalry. I am going to drive mechanized fighting machines. Hopefully an M1A2 Abrams main battle tank. I will wear my uniform with pride and honor and am thankful for those like yourself who have gone before me.
To all our skeptics out there, this is not a butt kissing session. It is two, soon to be brothers, we few, we happy few, brothers in arms. Those of us who fight and die for this great land(which was fought and died for) truly have a bond that no one out of uniform can understand. So I don't expect think4yours or the likes of him to know what I am speaking of.
Just know, Walts, that what you have done for your country will not go down in history as a fight for oil, or imperialism, but as a true SELF SACRIFICE that only those willing to participate will understand and reward.
As for the skeptics, they can pound the pavement with the other bleeding hearts, while the rest of us allow our hearts to bleed for those who cannot defend themselves and for our fellow Americans. If they find this offensive they can move to France and help defend the Maginot Line.
I think we all remeber how that turned out...

"Wars are not won by dying for your country, they a"

I would also like to address the WMD info that is constantly and repeatedly misstated. There has been weapons grade plutonium found in the same sights that Hans Blix said were clear of WMD, precursor chemicals were found in what was supposed to be a pesticide storage facility.
I'm not a scientist, but I have done some reading on some of the chemical weapons that have been the topic of the discussion in this war. Sarin gas and VX gas cannot be produced then stored. They must be mixed from other, precursor chemicals and immediately placed into a war head or artillary round. The ficticious chemical weapons the idiot liberals keep saying haven't been found actually have been found in the form of these precursor chemicals.
Tests have been "inconclusive" because the U.S. government does not go off half cocked anymore, especially after all the "scandals" with FBI and CIA investigations that have gone bad in the past. Formal findings will eventually be distributed to the public when it is safe for the public to know, and that knowledge won't endanger national security. If you liberals knew anything about the military and the investigatory process you would not be spouting the retarded lies that spew forth like so much regurgitated whiskey from a drunken Arkansas President.
Bush is not a Nazi, nor was he falsely elected in a popular vote in a presidential election. The popular vote has never been what elects the president of the United States. The electoral college does that. I will say this until I am blue in the damn face or until the liberals pick up a copy of the Constitution and actually FUCKING read it for a change.
Sack up and grab a rifle and stand your post...That will win my favor!!!

"Wars are not won by dying for your country, they a"

One more for the road...a major in the Army was in Desert Storm(the first one) and was nearby when a bomb from an American plane exploded in what was thought to be a military ammo dump for the Iraqis. That "ammo" dump was actually a chemical weapons storage sight and the explosion caused many troops in the area(mainly American troops) to become sick.
They had the WMD and Chemical weapons 12 years ago before all this new crap happened, and they were hidden in the desert...what makes anyone think that more aren't hidden out there that may never be found. Try looking for anything in the desert, let alone something buried and you'll find out why it takes so long to find WMD in the Iraqi desert. Let the troops do their jobs and look for the WMD that might cause the Iraqi civilians problems in the future if they aren't found(cancer, disease, death from polluted ground water from chemicals already plague the people of Iraq). They could use all the help they can get!

"Wars are not won by dying for your country, they a"

Do you know who uttered the words in my Quote? If you do then you get a cookie.

General George S. Patton, now where's my cookie!?

Apparently my reply fell through so I'll try again.

Repeating something stupid 10 times won't help. Come up with a compelling reason why you're right, and say it ONCE. This isn't a vote. You're judged by the quality of your statements not by quantity.

Bush was elected by the ELECTORAL COLLEGE!!! Not some old bastard who hasn't voted since FDR. If you don't like the rules then move elsewhere or lobby to change things to fit your agenda, but don't bitch about losing in a system that works more often than not.

Try this link and tell me what you think: http://www.captaincynic.com/George_W_Bush_Election_Exposed.avi

Bush was NOT elected. He rigged the election, ie. he cheated. How can you lobby to stop cheating if it's against the rules to begin with??

As for moving elsewhere if I don't like it, why do people use this dumb logic?? Are YOU leaving because you don't like people disagreeing with Bush or badmouthing the marines? Obviously not. Neither of us has to put up or shut up. We can also disagree, voice our opinions, convince people that we are right, and motivate them to speak up. It's simple: if this war is the right thing to do, then fighting for USA is a good and noble thing to do. If the war is a fight for oil with self-defense and liberation as a pretext, then fighting for the US is like fighting for the Nazis in WW2. You're fighting for your country -- great, but you're helping them to murder people. You haven't given me a good reason yet why this war is for a good cause.

Seeing as you have little ideological differences with tyrrany.

What are you talking about? I think I was clear in my first reply that wars for a good cause are good, but that I believe this one is NOT for a good cause (it's for oil). Fighting for your country is good, SOME of the time, not all of the time. It depends what your leader's motives are. Do you disagree?

There has never been a connection made between Iraq and Al Qaeda. No chemical weapons have been found. And Bush certainly isn't over there to protect Iraqis.

Tell me what YOUR reason is for thinking that this war is good, and we'll debate it.

Tanker,

Regarding your WMD post. There are 2 WMD related reasons for attacking Iraq: self-defense, and because production of WMD is a violation of UN sanctions against Iraq. But the UN doesn't want the US to go fight Iraq, so reason 2 doesn't apply. Do you disagree on this point? If you do, make sure you say so in your reply so that we may narrow in on this difference of opinion.

The first reason was self-defense. Well, China and North Korea DO have WMD, neither of them particularly likes the US, and either of these countries could supply WMD to terrorists just like Iraq can. Why are we attacking Iraq for POSSIBLY having WMD, when other dangerous countries DO have them?

Regarding precursor chemicals, I'm not a chemist either, but I do know that precursor chemicals for chemical weapons usually have applications that have nothing to do with warfare. If Iraq was banned from manufacturing those, the UN would go after them for it, and the US would have what they're looking for. The fact that these chemicals might be used in conjunction with something else to create chemical weapons is a rediculous pretext for war. It IS a threat to the US, yes, but since when are we living in a world where no one anywhere can attack us? Are we going after every country that posesses a weapon capable of harming Americans? Iraq is NOT a threat. Car accidents kill more people than Iraq and terrorism combined. Bush can't announce that we're going after Iraq because they have a nice big oil supply. He needs to make them an enemy. The type of threat Iraq imposes on the US has ALWAYS been there, but Bush makes it a bigger deal than it really is so he can start a war.

They had the WMD and Chemical weapons 12 years ago before all this new crap happened

Of course they had them. The US was largely responsible for Iraq's chemical weapons program in the 80s. They didn't give a shit when Saddam gassed the Kurds with them either.