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Idea of the "perfect" government? - Page 3

User Thread
 62yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
By the people for the people. Somehow that has been forgotten

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 35yrs • M •
enlightened one is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
now i know im young and i still have a lot to learn,
but i belive a perfect goverment is one which incorporates a little of every goverment we have...
where the individual is regarded as the basis of the Nation
not a Democracy not a Dictatorship
a goverment which job is to protect the life of the people from outside forces and to provide a "good life"
where the individual is truly free
as the chinese phlosipher that the individual is the basis of the empire...
then truly we will have a free and enlightened State(let me know what you guys think);

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"\\\"it\\\'s not over till it\\\'s over\\\"-Rocky"
 27yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that James008 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
There is no such thing as a perfect government, the only thing we can do to make it is to make a lot of mistakes and hope that we get there one day. but capitalism will never work, the reason for this is that capitalism makes a few people extremely rich at the expense of all the other people living in extreme poverty, and with poverty there will always be uprisings against the government. I think this is pretty close to the perfect government, it is a combination of capitalism and communism and a few extra stuff.

The Perfect Government

● Agriculture: All the crops is grown indoor under grow lights and optional hydroponics and will grow all day and night to shorten the time needed to grow crops and provide more food with less land. The best thing about growing indoors will make farms absolute to crops because one can use a tower in the city to grow the same amount of crops because only one third of the land will be enough and crops will be much more successful as outside conditions will not effect the crops. This is very great as crops can be grown in cities on desert coastlines by using desalinated water, which will minimize destruction of forests. All animals will be brought up as normal but the farms will be as close as possible to cities to cut down on truck usage. No fish will be fished out of the see it will all be grown on land in artificial lakes to prevent destruction of ocean ecology.
● Education: Children is never our child, even if the child is genetically yours. The children is raised collectively so that the children over a few generations will be learning the same thing from all the people in order to prevent cultures from existing which is the thing which causes discrimination. Children will go to school which would be the most advanced schools possible and all the children will get a college eduction. It will all be free of charge and the total cost of the school will be paid by the state. At the end of school and college all the graduates and even the people that did not graduate shell be analyzed in term of personality to see if there social skills and there personality live up to standards if not they will have to go back and do courses to learn it again and if the fail or do not want to do it again they will have three choices, one is to leave the country, the other is to live in a facility not to ever come out again or they would be executed if they do not chose one of the other two. The facility might also be replaced by living with family members and they will be provided with food also. But these people will be analyzed every year and if they do reach the personality standard they may leave and get a work, there will be people who covertly analyze theme to prevent that they take advantage of this service, if one is found guilty of taking advantage of this service they will be executed. The yearly analyses will be done with a polygraph and a person that recognizes when a person lies and if they do not pass the will be given another test a week later to ensure that the results is correct.
● Protection Force: The defense force and the police will be merged into the Protection force, and there job is to act as police inside the borders and as defense force on the borders. The defense force on the borders will only be to prevent illegal people to come into the country, not to get more territory. It will be a neutral state and it will never take part in a war because war is a massive waste of minerals and resources which shortens the life of nature and the earth and what are we going to do if our home planet is destroyed by ourselves, we can go and live in space and another but we will never be able to let our children experience the earth. People who believe in war does not have the right to live and if a major defective human being. They will be responsible to enforce laws. Any person who is found guilty beyond any doubt of any crime will be executed after 10 years in prison. The 10 year period is for family to accept the fate of the person and also is there to investigate the case thoroughly to prevent innocent deaths.
● Economic Development: The economy will be controlled and shaped by a group of ten people which is the most experienced in economic development and there terms will be as long as no one challenges them. And this is how all high positions will be, they are unlimited terms but if someone challenges them and the challenger wins the defeated will be out of office the next day and the new person will take over.
● Energy: Research will be continuously done in energy to develop more economical renewable energy sources. Research will also be extensively be done in free energy generation, and claims of free energy generation.
● Corporations: all corporations have no owner, it has an independent account for profits and money and will operate as a independent body of the state but the owner will be indicated as state owned but the state is truly owned by the people so it's the peoples operation. All decisions in corporations will be made by a voting of the workers and the votes will be over viewed by all the workers. One person will then announce the vote outcome after every worker has searched for potential fraud or corruption. That person which announces it will also be the person who is the director of the corporation and the outcome of the vote will be what he does about whatever the vote was about, he has no say accept his vote which is equal to the workers vote. Corporations will be automated to the most it can to cut down on work and people will work shorter hours with much more employees and will work 24 hours a day 6 days a week and most employees will only work for about 3 hours just to check over all the robots. Hours will be shorten as there is more employees. And every one who applies for a job will get one immediately and it will then shorten the work of all the other employees. But if a specific business has more workers they will be informed that there is more workers then in the other businesses and they will be asked to report if they want to move to another business and if there is no one they use the most relevant CV. There will be for every product two or more producers of the product so that when it is sold to the people they will have two choices, but the catch is that neither of the producers may advertise, this is so that a consumers choice is not influenced by a ad, but only based on quality and experience with the product. Any and all new corporation schemes is owned by the state and if it is relevant the new corporation will be build and started by the state and will fully be controlled like the other corporations, by the workers.
● Voting: Voting will be done electronically with a computer and a unique identity code and password. A computer together with the code and password will be able to vote one vote per poll, and only polls that affect a person. A computer and unlimited Internet will be provided to every person and the fiber wire communications will be the responsibility for the state to provide trough the tax.
● Tax: Taxes will only be collected from corporation profit and will be allocated to the state to provide funding for material and supplies for all the state responsibility.
● Wages: nobody receives a wage but they receive 10 percent of the profit of all the state corporations after it has been allocated to the state account. That 10 percent will be divided up between the working people of all the corporations. People in high positions will receive a bit more of the money because of there higher responsibility. These rewards will not be used to provide food it is completely there for you to use for what ever you want to.
● Food: Food will be provided to everyone that works and there wives and/or children, and the food will not be given away in as much quantity as they want it. It will be regulated by a credit system that is provided to all in the same quantity, IF they worked and that same quantity will be provided to the wife/husband and children if needed. The credits will be worked out to provide necessary nutrition and a small bit more. There will be two food products of every kind without any names, they will only be categorized in the two groups by separation and numbering of each group. All the food must be produced inside the border of the state to prevent food shortages.
● Health: Health care will be free of charge and availability to every working citizen or direct family of the working person.
● Family Size: A person that works can have one wife/husband and two children. If they have a bigger family they will not be provided for by the state and it will be law not to have more then two children. If a person has a child with while not having a husband they will be executed while pregnant. Condoms will be delivered to every man. Woman will be advised to make sure they let no man enter them without a condom or they have to use pills to stop them falling pregnant.
● Science and Technology: Science and technology needs to be as efficient and productive as possible to make sure we only go forward and not stay stuck at one place.
● Sport: contact sport will be abolished. The reason for this is contact sport is a big stress on the body and it provokes and learn people that fighting and aggression is correct and the only way to achieve great success, but it is not it is very bad to harm another human being!!! And it is also very expensive in the sense medical cost, even if the medical service is free. And a sport like rugby would cost people a lot of there rewards which in turn will make a select few supper rich which will create a massive class deference which in turn results in discrimination and over pollution by these individual extravagant living.
● Housing: every body will live in massive buildings 1 km by 1km which will be no lower then 10 levels and it will stretch at least 2 levels under ground in which the electric cars will be in. The biggest part of the roof will be used for solar water heating and solar panels. Inside in the middle of the first, second and third floor there will be a big park which will stretch up all three levels and will be used as the primary recreational centre. The top floor and if the building is very high, the second from the top will be used as the medical centre and the school.
● Transport: no one will own a car and mass transit will be the first and biggest option. This mass transport would be Maglev trains in the majority and there will be one at every station every 15 minutes, that will amount to a massive number of trains. The second biggest one will be electric cars which no one will own, it will be state owned and they will be parked under the buildings which people will live in.

This is only an idea and it is not meant to offend any one.

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"Life is interesting but the universe rules."
 26yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that TheHollowMen275 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I am an idealist socialist, however, as long as there are people in the world who do not share in Marxist beliefs, there can never be an ideal government, in my opinion.

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"All the world's a stage. And all the men and women are merely players."
 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Cainchild is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
One has to factor in for greed. The world is ruled by the worst of us, always has been and always will be. Selfish men and women who would watch children starve to obtain a marble counter top. The same profiteers who would rape, murder and send 12 year old boys to die for their gain. They are willing to pull the trigger, and so they gain much over decent human beings. There is a little bit of this everyone now, because those same people are far more likely to breed.
Direct democracy is slow, requires massive educational & informational infrastructure to keep people informed and lacks objective detachment. Hysteria and group think are dangerous, having a slightly detached group of people who can stand back and think clearly is important.

Capitalism by its very nature breed casualties. The richer someone is, the the richer they can become. A poor person thus lacks the resources to improve their station. A book called the wealth of man discusses that Rome, the most successful capitalism in human history made slave of as much as half of its population to support its activities. We have done the same, they are working poor, whos choices include slaving away in their choice of retched ghettos with no chance of mobility. By this I would support the 100% inheritance tax myself.

Communism tends to breed abuse. It breeds criminal behavior because there is always someone who believes they deserve more than everyone else, and doesn't give any heed to the suffering of others. Communism is also guaranteed to fail, because of nations that aren't communist. You have the same as everyone else, and see people in this other country driving shiny cars and owning massive televisions it makes it hard to be selfless. Communism requires an element of selflessness, which humankind has all but bred out of itself because of what is discussed in the first paragraph.

Socialism breeds entitlement, allows for just as grave disparities as capitalism and requires massive maintenance across the board. A socialism has to work hard to train and educate its citizens, maintain the flow of information and so on. Again, selfishness is a common trait in human beings, so is indolence and apathy. This hard work and investment in the people of a socialism, also means that the people have to put in work. They want the reward, but they want someone else to do the hard part.

All that being said. Any free society absolutely requires that the people be capable and willing to employ physical force. It also requires that the economic and political power is divided up amongst either the people or a large enough base of individuals. Those things combined prevent exclusionary practices, and an excess consolidation of power. Preventing the latter has a tendency in turn to avoid situations who certain people live without consequences and empathy for others.

Perfect government? For who?
I think Scotland (and I'm Irish so this is hard to say,LOL) probably was on the right path about 4hundred years ago or so. A nation comprised of small groups of people, who also belong to larger body or nation. Individuals serving their families, neighbors and clans. Clans in turn serving the nation. Feuding was a pain but I think they would have figured that out in time had the English not done what the English do.
I mean, the representative who went to meet with the heads of other clans HAD to do the right thing because he was going home to a small group of people who knew him, and who he relied on for much. The larger national body also HAD to do what was right but the clans that comprised because if they did not, well we saw what happened when the clans didn't stick together.

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"Fear is the emotion that prevents us from doing thing we shouldn't have thought of to begin with."
 27yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that James008 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Yeah Cainchild you go blabber more of those stuff to your self. people need to be raised collectively by a lot of people living in a large building together so that they can learn all the same thing on the same standard and human desire and greed is only transmitted to people who has a bad child life or had some bad experience where they got much less then someone else and if you can provide the same to all they would not need to worry about wealth if they are taught that greed and desire and selfishness is incorrect. so if you produce products efficiently by eliminating human decision making as much as you can in order to produce enough for all so that there free time can be used to practice religion. if one is revealed of earthly possessions one can believe and follow the path god set.

and if you believe in capitalism then you have to consider this.
capitalism causes pollution as it does not limit the amount that can be produced and it doesn't impose efficiency because that will result in the lost of work which will then be replaced by the more efficient robots and you know that low efficiency causes massive pollution. and pollution is our single most biggest problem that we face.

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"Life is interesting but the universe rules."
 44yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Dude, wake up, the wealthiest people in the world who never had to work a day in their life are the current greediest bastards on the planet, and they want you dead.

That's your biggest threat, pollution is but a tool, a means to them. They like you sick and dependent on them.

They don't even need money themselves, they create it.

Capitalism itself is harmless, but run by corruption, it and all other models fail in disaster.

If your idea was so valid, it would already exist.

But communal tribes that follow just such tenents still suffer war between tribes when food issues or other squabbles arise.

Humans are irrational emotional beings. Your idealism doesn't take all factors into account.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Cainchild is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
As I stated in my post their system ultimately failed because of just such squabbles. It was here...

quote:
well we saw what happened when the clans didn't stick together.


It still had certain advantages, however that I still stand by. The military and political autonomy absolutely keeps people honest. The smaller groups prevents the warm blanket of anonymity from distancing people from their behavior. I think this was to an extent the idea with the United States as the name implies.

In regard to economics such things are a double edged sword. Too much interconnectedness and when one fails they bring everyone else down. That same connection tends to prevent a fair amount of failure though.

quote:
Dude, wake up, the wealthiest people in the world who never had to work a day in their life are the current greediest bastards on the planet, and they want you dead.


That's kind of what I started my post off with.

quote:
Capitalism itself is harmless, but run by corruption, it and all other models fail in disaster.
Capitalism cannot operate without one person gaining more than another. This has a cumulative effect with each passing generation. If there is a way to mitigate this effect, I have never read about it.

quote:
Humans are irrational emotional beings.

Of that I am sure.

quote:
Your idealism doesn't take all factors into account.

Idealism? My post was largely a rant about the inherent shortcomings of each system that lend them a propensity for failure dude. I actually do take a lot into account, in as much as one can. Greed. Laziness. Selfishness. Egocentricity. finite resources. Human nature in general. Unfortunately in my studies the list seems to go on forever when dealing with essentially flawed creatures.

James I have no idea what you're talking about. Just for shits and giggles you might want to read someones post before you make such inarticulate attacks against arguments that largely agree with most of what you put forth.

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"Fear is the emotion that prevents us from doing thing we shouldn't have thought of to begin with."
 44yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Cain, I was actually responding to James specifically, but whatever applies to you works too I guess.

But for some points on your response. People can't be forced in communal situations under blanket rules for how to live. That's still tyranny and will always fail.

People need to live free or they will either become soulless zombies or rabid beasts. You can't tame a free spirit without damaging its will to live. We aren't meant to be caged.

The unfortunate reality is that part of balance is cyclical decay and rebirth of all things. Its a pendulum affect that we try to stall in order to capture utopia, but when you stop a pendulum the life cycle ceases, life ceases.

I'm not a fan of a need for pain to experience joy, but that has proven to be the case over all known history.

What I do know is that although corruption can never be eradicated, it does not have to be the dominant force, we don't have to live in ignorant denial of it or under its covert or overt heel.

One person is allowed to have more, just as they are allowed to work more and harder if they choose.

Its a culture of all around greed and extreme excess that causes true imbalance. Now, in reference to a person taking too much to the point of hurting others, that's a failure on everyone Elses part to keep their own environment in check.

Laws about disclosure and transparency in regards to universal resources and usage are needed. Just like governments who rule in secrecy will always become tyrannical.

But lazy people who stop caring and start enjoying their hand outs without feeling need to participate or contribute become the biggest issue.

As a that is needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

And if you have ever been a person who tried to help the needy, you would know that those who have foregone taking responsibility for themselves will generally not benefit from such assistance but instead simply waste your resources and drag you down as well.

You can give a man a fish, even teach him to fish, but if he chooses not to fish and just wants to eat yours, then he deserves to starve.

Reality can be harsh and there is no cut and dry solution. If your solution is murdering people who deviate from your utopian ideals like James, then I will say its nice to meet you Hitler.

We are all in different stages under different circumstances regardless of even uniform communal grooming. Like parenting, no two children receive the same parenting, different brains and learning styles, teaching styles, a bad day here that colors a perception for life, a misinterpretation or even mistake that is fostered and built upon coming back to haunt and prove fallability of any self proclaimed perfect system.

Variety is the spice of life, trying to force uniformity is the death of humanity.

But yes, there are ways to incorporate these major issues and account for them to degrees, but vigilance is always required, and vigilance causes commotion and strife, commotion is needed for advancement but strife is unfortunate, but sadly apparently needed as well.


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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 61yrs • M •
KeyBeeper is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
Since humanity is not perfect, none of our institutions will be perfect, but we can try to get close.

The perfect government will encourage personal responsibility. Without going into massive detail - imagine a government that collects all taxes through sale tax. Through technology, every citizen is taxed are a rate determined by the number of government services they want to receive. You go to the government website, and choose the government services you want beyond the basics of roads,courts etc. You can even choose to tax yourself for unemployment insurance, or tax yourself to help the greater collective - to fund services for those who cannot afford them. But it is your choice.

You want to send your child to public school - check the box and get taxed a bit more. You don't have kids or choose to home school or a private school - don't check the box and save. You want to get government retirement - check the box for more tax and more benefits later.

It could be done, at least on a small scale through bio metric identification. Freedom of choice and personal responsibility go hand in hand. If you can't handle that - don't join this group.

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 27yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that James008 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
KeyBeeper you have a big flaw. imagine the population in the future gets to 20 billion how the hell is everybody going to get what they need if a few actually posses the wealth of the country? never mind that how the hell are you going to provide energy to all, when the rich take most of it? and clean energy is not the answer!!!(when the planet uses to much wind energy it actually takes the energy out of the wind causing the wind to die down to early and rains may be prevented at certain places and overwhelming in other place. solar: if one where to cover a big area with solar panels the less energy will reach the ground causing less evaporation causing the earth to become a desert!!!)

almost 1 in 6 people in the world are currently starving and if the world population rose to 20 billion half of the world would be starving!!! if one does not regulate what people take they will just take and take and others will suffer if todays world was regulated no one would be starving!!! government is not there to tax people, they are there to make sure no one takes more then they need and those who need gets work so that they can earn what they need. but as we know if you only get what you need and you know you can't get more you are only going to do the minimum that is required of you therefore almost no advancement, the person who can combine them successfully will be the perfect government.

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"Life is interesting but the universe rules."
 61yrs • M •
KeyBeeper is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
Based on yoru premise, then there is no right answer. If your premise is "imagine a horrible situation exists a priori" then nothing really works. And I wasn't postulating a world government, only a government for the United States. I can't beging to conceive of a government for countries with non- existant infrastructure, or countries with a culture that will never allow the indivdual to become a productive independent citizen (like the Caste System in India).

There will always be poor and starving people, no matter the population. And while I feel compassion for any person in that situation - you'll never get the population to 20BB unless there is sufficient food for 6BB to have the resources to reproduce.

Your broad sweeping assumptions cannot be debated and add nothing to the discussion.

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Idea of the "perfect" government? - Page 3
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