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Cellphone VS Bible - Page 3

User Thread
 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
No worries Sorc, be you and be you with gusto, I say.

Those of us who understand where you are coming from, sometimes better than yourself in those moments of heated confusion, are by no means attacking you and your journey.

They are often trying to tell you that you are indeed on a journey rather than religious as in the context of the argument against organized religion.

If you can brake free of superstition and fear that leave you reliant and dependent upon a skewed and very controlled spiritual path, you will be able to take the good from religion and advance both it and yourself.

No one is completely against organized religion, to be so would mean being against all the good things about people and religion that we are trying to free from religion's destructive side of its grip.

It is a valid point and a sad Irony that organized religion is the number one source of, introduction to, and influence upon spirituality as a whole.

Which is why it is such an important institution to understand and address.

quote:
It is not about science and physical reality and facts and empirical reasoning and all that stuff


Oh, but it is.

quote:
its about subjective feelings, emotions, dreams, visions, the after life, God, demons, ghosts...basically things that are insubstantial and fantastical


You see, these things are one and the same, like the political left right paradigm that has devided and controlled many of us so too has the blind faith in the division spirtuality and reality, primarily through the conflict of religion and science.

The key is the balancing of the two with your honest understanding of your own limitations to knowledge and understanding, as well as that of those who are pushing various things as facts and or necessities.

quote:
Of course they do, it is a matter of faith after all and involves the person's spiritual life, their everlasting soul


Intentionally created presumptions, formed and handed to them to blindly hand to those meant to blindly follow and react to out of very basic yet clever design.

Something they will have to take responsibility for at some point, and the sooner the better.

For something I've challenged religious folk to truely think about is for all their fears of following or believing the wrong things, dogmas, gods, false idols etc. for fear of eternal damnation as you just mentioned by the referencing the everlasting soul dilemma.

It seems fairly obvious to me that they have done just those things by blindly following organized religions shaped and corrupted by man.

So you understand that you are more likely to follow a religious path because of fear for your soul, correct?

Do you think that your actions don't rub off on your kids?

Do you yet see my point about them following such a path out of fear instilled in them by organized religion, regardless of whether it is done directly, intentionally, or not?

Unless you see the distinctions which are factual and relevant, between religion and spirituality, instead of seeing a distinction that does not exist and indeed hampers your own spiritual growth, seperation of spirituality and physical reality, then yes, will not understand the debate.

And it will only be harder, eventually nearly impossible, if you continue to give your mind and soul over to those who would dictate your spiritual and physical path.

And if you want to see some results and sources of fear of religion still in action, well, turn on your news and don't forget to look at "civilized religious westerners" especially in America in terms of religion in politics as mentioned above by Square.

Organized religion is fundamentalist by design, and their ideology in their own minds supercedes all reason, rationality, and law as it is the intention of said religions to impose themselves as the true law of the land as it is "god's law".

And their solutions for debate or dissention of such tyranny is both clear cut, well exercised and documented. Its not allowed for anything but their word is of the devil and they excommunicate and or kill you, depending on what we the people allow them to get away with.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 57yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Tracer165 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Skittles 1314, are you really 13? Your entry 'cell phone verses Bible' I found to be wonderful. Don't be discouraged by the negative comments made by the others on this page about your entry. It sounds to me like you're on the right track. 1Peter 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you :


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 57yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Tracer165 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Psalms 14:1 A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

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 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
speaking evil of you


Sir, if you are accusing someone here of speaking evil of a 13 year old girl without any truth to back such a statement, I'm afraid I will have to ask you to kindly go fuck yourself.

And untill you can prove this girl to be what she claims to begin with, I will yawn at you if you bother any defense of the point.

As is plainly visible to anyone who bothers to read the thread in a coherent and objective fashion the majority of posts are in argument against religious and biblical matters presented in the original post.

The majority of responses actually directed at skittles are positive and even over protective and often out of context or in direct misinterpretation and therefore inevitable misrepresentation through emotionally blinded response.

Remarking on the negativity of many responses is both fair game and partially accurate.

However, if you only remark on the negativity of the responder and not that of the content of the response, then you are but proving the point made of blind hypocritical indoctrinational reactionism, as well as proving a lack in understanding of the actual intentions of the generally perceived negative responders who actually seek to free the minds of those enslaved by generational flat out threat induced (its called psychological torture and stockholm syndrome) indoctrination, regardless of the perception of good intentions and its range of subtlety to extremism.

And obviously this in response to more drastic teachings that you express disagreement with due to extremely far too common inaccurate misinterpretations you allude to in other posts, whether selective and accurate observations of yours or not, I could not begin to debate the details of the bible in any detail due to my lack of overly extensive familiarity.

Many of these points wouldn't be as relevant either due to their existance in all social upbringing in some form or another, but because religion is specifically used as a tool to organize influence over individuals and societies, especially when using such methods as superstition, unknowns, unverifiable claims allowed to trump reasonable doubt due to claims of faith and belief, not in the agreed upon concepts of being good people, but of highly suspect institutionalised dogmas and writings that have obviously gone through various changes and interpretations.

Its fascinating how many faithful can often point a finger telling others their ways, paths, historical accounts, interpretations, and beliefs are wrong because they don't share the same belief in details about something that is generally admittedly expressed as beyond comprehension or verification, such as god and any god plan and general authenticity of any written word associated with it, especially when basing it off of similar if not the same texts and versions of history.

But because mommy and daddy were born in the wrong place and had the wrong book handed to them in their impressionable youth and were forced to go the wrong church and were demanded to surrender their soul to a biasly warped, controlled, and manipulated definition of a conditional love god concept so beyond the grasp of any living creature let alone a child, yet if they don't believe it they will burn in hell and so they did it to their kids too, ad nauseum, and even though they spend their lives attempting to live by these codes, turns out, since they were the wrong ones, they still go to hell.

To epitomize this point, three of the worlds biggest mainstream religions agree they share the same foundations, yet they all are still wrong to eachother, and even split within themselves because even they can't agree on their OWN religion.

To this day I sustain multiple self inflicted stab wounds to the face trying to abate the pain of debating such simple and obvious truths as well as the pain of witnessing such wastings of human intellect and passion and potential unity when we all know at the core we basically share the same beliefs.

We don't need to follow giant cults to be good people, turns out, following giant soulles institutions instead of our actual souls, spirits, intuitions, what have you, eventually and inevitably leads to disaster every time.

Giving up your true soul for the reward of one defined by such an entity is indeed unfortunately how many go about their spiritual journies, with no loss of irony existant from abundance of blind hypocricy, this is actually one of the warnings in these religions.

All this silly and unecessary division and resultant voluntary mental, spiritual, and physical self enslavement and de-empowerment, its all a "god damned" shame, no really.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
[  Edited by Ironwood at   ]
 57yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Tracer165 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Ironwood, first let me say I was not intending to offend you or anyone else on this page with my post, I'm sorry you chose to take it that way and make it so personal. Again that was not my attention. I could be way off on this and again I'm not meaning to offend you or anyone else here, neither am I trying to convey that I'm right and everyone else is wrong but from your post it seems to me that you may have had some bad childhood experiences with church and religion. Is that so? If not why are you so down on it?

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 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
You didn't offend me, though I can't speak for anyone else.

quote:
I'm sorry you chose to take it that way and make it so personal.


Now this I find offensive and sad, you may feel free to speculate on my internal workings all you like, but don't think you can get away with making assumptive assertions based on faulty misinterpretations and proclaim them as fact, this isn't bible study.

Though I do understand how someone could interpret my words as you did, by dismissing any need to seek, learn, and understand the truth and reality of a given situation while in this processes stead placing a chosen belief based on nothing but emotional desires and reactionism and claiming that the proclamation of its truth and faith in one's own judgement is all the authenticity required to trump any potential rational argument to the contrary and points to the probable facts that whomever would follow such logic is simply projecting their own emotions and desired beliefs on others and trying desperately to validate their proposed view of reality to avoid ever having to face the truth of the lies they build their delusional world upon.

Hopefully you don't fall completely in this category as your assumptions and assertions would suggest.

What I did is point out flippant usage of potentially offensive language in a manner oh so common with self righteously biased and single minded interpretations of such passages.

Regardless of your personal positions, interpretations, and intentions I might add.

That and it was used in a context reminiscent of, again, biasedly closed minded judgements of any posts that were not fawning over or in total agreement or synergy with the original post as I have been arguing about in this thread for some time.

quote:
I could be way off on this and again I'm not meaning to offend you or anyone else here, neither am I trying to convey that I'm right and everyone else is wrong but from your post it seems to me that you may have had some bad childhood experiences with church and religion. Is that so?


Depending on what you have in mind, you could be quite right about how wrong you would be.

quote:
If not why are you so down on it?


I have about 52 months of explanations on that behind me if you care to look.

But suffice it to say, I see the danger of trying to make the progressive step of driving down the spiritual super highway from the dirt road one began on while still utilizing and depending on training wheels meant to help control your balance.

If these wheels do not come off when it is time to ride on your own, they will continue to control you and eventually steer you into a wall face first.

Organised religion is about as sensible in adulthood as deep sea diver continuing to wear floaties.

And given the systemic corruption of this world and organised religions part in it, as well as religions focus on and control over the human internal power center of spirituality as well as the mind, it becomes something far less than a laughing matter or one that can be ignored.

quote:
Psalms 14:1 A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.


Sweaty Palms 6:9 A Psalm of the Prophet Ironwood. The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God, and though it is beyond my comprehension, I can define it and its intentions.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
[  Edited by Ironwood at   ]
 57yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Tracer165 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Ironwood, since you did not understand the meaning of my first post, I felt it only fair to give you the benefit of the doubt and add a second post but since you failed to understand me on either point I will address your 'assumptions and assertions' as you like to say.

First I am amazed that you were able to pull so much out of one little comment. Talk about assuming and asserting. Secondly, I am equally amazed at your lack of understanding of such a little comment. Did you even read anything I wrote? If you did you obviously did not understand it. Did I state anything against commenting negatively? Show me, did I comment anything against commenting positively? Show me. I just told her not to get discouraged by any comments made that may be negative and then you turn drama queen on me. Good grief man get a grip. I made one little statement and you go off on me like I wrote some ten page biblical thesis. Again, did you even read what I wrote? You chose to take something small and simple I wrote and try and twist it to say something I never said, implied or intended so that you can express your own deluded viewpoints there-by placing yourself in the spotlight of your self-centered self glorification, all the while pointing your finger at someone else and attributing to them your own twisted attributes. Again talk about 'assuming and asserting'. It looks to me from your response towards me you did more than your fair share of that.

As for the scripture I used, if you don't like it, then your problem is not with me, I didn't write it. And two small scriptures don't make a Bible study.
Again you wrote; 'the majority of posts are in argument 'against religious and biblical matters' presented in the original post.' Ah that's why I added the first scripture I did.

For the most part I have found that people who do not believe in God have a problem with those who do. As a result, those that choose not to believe in God tend to, as it is written, 'speak evil' of those who do, you know as you have done with me.
(for your information the correct translation of the word evil would be 'abuse verbally')

'Freeing the Mind', as you put it.
Who says its held captive? Does that mean if we don't all agree with you on ever viewpoint of yours or think like you then there is something wrong with us? Freeing our mind, that's funny. Your vain ramblings and babbling does not impress me. It just shows me all the more that you didn't understand what I wrote or you just used it as an opportunity for a little self glorification.

Again you wrote;
'I could not begin to debate the details of the bible in any detail due to my 'lack' of overly extensive familiarity.'

I can. I have spent the last 15 years in study of the Bible and different dominations. I have been asked to speak at many churches and have done so. I have even been asked to speak on television, which I also have done. I have taught from small kids to the elderly in Bible study classes. I am well respected in several church for my comprehension of the Bible and Bible topics. I don't write this to try and impress you, with you, I'm sure you could care less. I do write this to help you, if its possible, to understand where I'm coming from. I, like you use to comment against Christians in the same manner you have towards me. If you think I don't understand your feelings against Christianity, let me reinsure you that I do all to well. I, like you, thought that all Christians were confused and used the Bible as a crutch to explain away all the things in life they did not understand. When you can surrender your preconceived ideas and spend at least 3 years in continuous Bible study then maybe I might entertain something you have to say concerning Bible matters, otherwise, don't start trying to talk for me or twist anything else I have written so that you can use it for another chance to go on about how almighty wise you are. To you, you may seem wise but to me, far from it.

I find it interesting that all of the things you accuse me of, you did to me, like when you wrote;

'...projecting their own emotions and desired beliefs on others and trying desperately to validate their proposed view of reality to avoid ever having to face the truth of the lies they build their delusional world upon.'

Do you mean like you did to me? I mean, look at the little comment I wrote compared to what you wrote. It looks to me like you're the one doing the projecting.

As far as 'Organized Religion' goes that you also commented on, as long as there are people in Churches there is going to be problems but these problems are not limited to the church alone. There are plenty of problems in the world outside the walls of the church. Anywhere one finds people you'll find problems, they go hand in hand. The 'Organized Churches' are not head and shoulders above the world in this.

You come off as some 'how dare someone disagree with you or think differently then you' attitude. Who the hell are you that you think so highly of yourself? Have you done some great good for man kind? Have you invented some new vaccine that will cure the world of some terrible disease? Do the leaders of the world come to you for advice on how to solve their difficult problems? Maybe you should try taking off your training wheels as you said.

You say you have 52 months of explanation behind you, explanation of what? Why your so consumed by self. I'd love to see them. To see what makes you think your opinion is the only one that maters and is the only one that's valid in your eyes.

Finally, as for you picture you chose to put over your user name, I'd say it fitting for you.

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 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Did I state anything against commenting negatively? Show me


You said nothing, against, in terms of telling people not too, but that was not the point I made.

quote:
Don't be discouraged by the negative comments made by the others on this page about your entry


Is what you said, and to unfortunately have to repeat myself, as well as repeating you, your comment was devoid of addressing those perceived negative comments, or even explaining how they are perceived as negative to you, not that you are required to, but because of this lacking information your post was virtually meaningless and intended to do nothing but coddle a little girl while passing unexplained judgement on posts in disagreement with religious aspects of the original post.

This is quite relevant due to the fact that multiple people, including myself, find our religiously argumentitive perspectives both positive and enlightening, even if not expressed with kid gloves, when addressing religious indoctrination of young children, which was the instigation for such passionate responses against a post that obviously wasn't intending to create such a debate.

But you would know this if you had read the thread and understood it properly.

Does this matter to a degree that no clarifications and progressions towards unified understanding can be permitted, absolutely not, as far as I'm concerned, but that would be a two way street.

quote:
You chose to take something small and simple I wrote and try and twist it to say something I never said, implied or intended


I did nothing of the sort. And I already explained part of why you would even think such a thing, another part is about to be addressed.

Here, let me show and compare.

This is an asserted assumption...

quote:
you chose to take it that way and make it so personal


It is personal and definitive.

This is not...

quote:
if you are accusing someone....

someone could interpret my words as you did....

whomever would follow such logic...


These are generalized and speculative, allowing for possibilities outside of themself.

I even made sure to pre-emtively address this entire point and matter when I said...

quote:
Hopefully you don't fall completely in this category as your assumptions and assertions would suggest.


I even double covered this point extra super pre-emptively when I said that I was making these points...

quote:
Regardless of your personal positions, interpretations, and intentions I might add.


Again, I can easily see some possible reasons as to why such missunderstandings could occur.

One of which comes from a forum such as this if you aren't familiar with them, which I do not know to be the case one way or another.

However, the transition between making direct comments to someone and generalized ones addressing concepts within posts whether intended or not by the person earlier addressed or anyone else who has posted is quite common and only natural in a debate format that does not occur in real time where responses, information, and clarifications come in a timely manner.

And something you have already alluded to holding some understanding of is that people follow recognisable trends and thought patterns based on what information they have been exposed to and the positions they choose to take and express.

So when people come in and start dropping scriptures, untill they clarify their personal posistion on the religious matter they should not be surprised if they get responses about or treated like people who drop scriptures, and often turn out to be fundamentalist asshats.

However, you would be correct to find dissagreement with anyone who labels you or your intentions with asserted assumptions of such posistions without your having declared such a thing yourself, which is why I made sure not to by indeed addressing those posistions and allowing for both the possibility that you may or may not feel that way.

Hopefully you get where I'm coming from as I'm quite certain this would alleviate a great deal of confusion and missunderstanding.

quote:
As for the scripture I used, if you don't like it, then your problem is not with me, I didn't write it


I may indeed have some quibbles with the scripture, I really don't know, but that wasn't what I was talking about, it was you and your use of it as well as your possible intentions purposes behind posting it, it was YOU who posted it, yes?

You don't get to hide behind such a lame out of context attempt at an excuse I'm afraid.

quote:
two small scriptures don't make a Bible study


This is concerning, it seems context is something that eludes many who venture through these forums.

But it often tends to explain itself through emotionally clouded minds lacking attention to detail and deciding for themselves what someone means and intends, often because they have reacted to something they feel attacks a belief of theirs, rather than acutally finding out for sure.

Oh, but that would be repeating myself again, none the less, to clarify something, I was referencing bible study through a description of a belief and thought pattern generally found in bible study, aka indoctrination class.

quote:
'the majority of posts are in argument 'against religious and biblical matters' presented in the original post.' Ah that's why I added the first scripture I did


No shit, and the response I made to it was directly in reference to the mischaracterization of what an argument is and what people's intentions were for making the argument.

I happen to find indoctrination, particularly of young impressionable minds, into cults as abusive and "speaking evil".

Whereas I find adressing it, even if heatedly and bordering on abuse in somes' perceptions, as anything but.

Your proclamation of others haven spoken evil of someone for being in dissagreement with their posistions does not make it so.

And since you are making indirect judgemental reference to posters and their intentions and blatantly dismissing them and labeling them as negative, you should not be surprised to get what should be an obvious rebuttal by those you are defaming and mischaracterizing.

By the way,

quote:
(for your information the correct translation of the word evil would be 'abuse verbally')


I had never heard that before and I thank you for the interesting information.

quote:
'Freeing the Mind', as you put it.
Who says its held captive?


Well whose it are we talking about and what are the details and I'll attempt to answer that question.

But in the context of addressing the general point of indoctrination, as I was, both intentional and not, I would say that "I say" that many minds and even societies under the influence of religion are indeed held captive.

quote:
Does that mean if we don't all agree with you on ever viewpoint of yours or think like you then there is something wrong with us?


Absolutely not, but I do allow for the possibility.

quote:
Your vain ramblings and babbling does not impress me.


Odd, they seem to have made enough of an impression for you to make that statement as well as this lengthy response....

quote:
or you just used it as an opportunity for a little self glorification


No, but you were closer earlier when remarking on me being a drama queen about points you have yet to address and I cannot assume you understand at this point.

This is in reference to the larger concepts I was responding to brought up by your posts, again, regardless of your actual intentions that I could not know as you had not expressed them, and for the most part, still have not.

But none the less, you still managed to assume and assert that they were directly about you.

quote:
For the most part I have found that people who do not believe in God have a problem with those who do. As a result, those that choose not to believe in God tend to, as it is written, 'speak evil' of those who do, you know as you have done with me.


See how you appear to...

quote:
take it that way and make it so personal


And are you making assumptions about my belief in God now too? :CLARIFICATION ALERT: This was a question, not an assertion. Sorry, but it would appear as if some warnings are warranted.

And there is such irony in your attempted point that is apparently again misguided by assumptions.

But my noticing this irony helped me to formulate a better, though still partial, answer to an earlier question of yours.

quote:
it seems to me that you may have had some bad childhood experiences with church and religion. Is that so?


Indeed, the biggest being persecution by those who feared my questions about their beliefs, be it in passive aggressive or outright vicious attacks for daring to question the word,or any other aspect, of god, jesus, and or the bible or anyone who proclaims them as truth and righteousnous in the chosen belief and blind faith in it.

You see, you may be familiar with people speaking evil of those who believe in god, but how often is it from someone who had evil spoken of them for questioning god in any way shape or form?

I have a feeling you are quite familiar with this point, if I've properly assessed the meaning of your attempts study and clarify the bible after having...

quote:
use[d] to comment against Christians in the same manner you have towards me


Of course the last part just being your ego still getting the better of you.

quote:
I have spent the last 15 years in study of the Bible and different dominations


Interesting Freudian slip sir. And I'm sorry for your loss.

quote:
I do write this to help you, if its possible, to understand where I'm coming from. I, like you use to comment against Christians in the same manner you have towards me. If you think I don't understand your feelings against Christianity, let me reinsure you that I do all to well. I, like you, thought that all Christians were confused and used the Bible as a crutch to explain away all the things in life they did not understand.


First, let me say I appreciate any attempt to help educate me on such matters as well as appreciate all personal insight from someone who has travelled similar roads as I find all people's unique perspectives of value.

But do not assume to fully relate as these are indeed unique perspectives we speak of due to only we having lived our own individual lives and their cumulative experiences to form these perspectives, regardless of relatable subject matters and even similar opinions.

I will say that my feelings on the crutch issue are not equatable primarily due to the qualifying aspects of the word "all" that you used.

Because certainly you would not deny that many people do just that. But to claim all do would indeed be silly.

But I find encouragement in your potential understanding of my posistions regardless of any degrees of separation.

And I do not presume that your thoughts on that matter are limited to the narrowed expression of it found in those words.

quote:
When you can surrender your preconceived ideas and spend at least 3 years in continuous Bible study then maybe I might entertain something you have to say concerning Bible matters


Exactly what preconceived ideas do I hold again?

Whatever they are, I can assure you, I hold no tight grip to notions presented to me by others, hence some of my apprehensions towards religion.

As for your qualifications on bible study, if a self proclaimed "professional" can't have two way conversations with a "layman", regardless of understandable frustrastions, then I'm afraid it be you who will become lost

And if that were true and you were to consider yourself any type of teacher, then you truly would be lost and would drag down anyone stupid enough to follow.

Don't you realise that most revelations come from outside of a focused field of study by mixing thoughts and perspectives.

Because once you hone in like that you start to lose sight of the big picture and how these things interrelate.

If you cut out the rest of the factors that afftect the subject matter, which all things affect all things, then you lose the plot altogether.

How many scientific breakthroughs are accidents, how many professionals witness a child speak an obvious truth that has somehow elluded them utterly altering their entire perception of reality?

quote:
I find it interesting that all of the things you accuse me of, you did to me, like when you wrote;

'...projecting their own emotions and desired beliefs on others and trying desperately to validate their proposed view of reality to avoid ever having to face the truth of the lies they build their delusional world upon.'

Do you mean like you did to me?


I find it interesting how much you repeat yourself in defense of yourself when I spoke not of your personal self, unless your personal beliefs and actions were indeed included in my generalization of course, but that would be for you to tell me because I still do not know your personal beliefs and do not presume to, regardless of any natural speculation I entertain in hopes of gaining clarification, something you have yet to be too cooperative in addressing.

quote:
Anywhere one finds people you'll find problems, they go hand in hand. The 'Organized Churches' are not head and shoulders above the world in this.


Indeed, and indeed organized churches are not.

The point is that they are in general tools of indoctrination over education, though plenty try not to be and some succeed, and given their heirarchycal setup and their perpensity for corruption like so many bodies of power they have to be re-evaluated and likely restructured.

Ultimately I understand this to be a problem of lacking intelligence, or more likely accurate, a lacking use of intelligence, personal honesty, and personal responsibility on the part of the followers, with great exception for the children, which all of the followers once were, hence the very real and very dangerous, again, regardless of of intention to do so, indoctrination factor that I cannot stress enough.

quote:
You come off as some 'how dare someone disagree with you or think differently then you' attitude.


True, to someone who doesn't understand me and instead tries to create their own understanding based off what they can relate to.

(Hence inevitable projecting which I at first did not attribute to you directly, but that you later took claim of by yourself when attempting to accuse me of it. I had merely laid out what many religious people do because you did something similar, and then you did it. The difference between our two cases and the reason why yours was projection and mine was not, is because mine were generalized EXPRESSIONS of personal perspectives to which I took total ownership of and yours were directly aimed personal emotional reactionary responses to my expressions, based on preconceived notions I might add. What you may not know is, I do this on purpose to see who takes personal offense to generalized statements by strangers because that is the first thing that needs to be addressed in order to have constructive mutual learning experiences on the annonymous internet. You would likely be amazed at how many people take personal offense to comments made by people they do not know personally. Its a variant on the definition of insanity, if it persists, well, then it is the definition.)

quote:
Who the hell are you that you think so highly of yourself?


Who says I do? Oh wait, that's right, you. Project much?

Do you struggle with your ego to this degree? Is this the true reason you feel the need to over educate yourself on fables and matters of faith and interpretation, to hold your "knowledge" over the heads of those who so desperately seek to be lead rather than to educate themselves and take actual personal responsibility for themselves?

I know there is an irony in that so many religious people actually do take more personal responsibility to the point of taking action in life over idleness, but it is the fact that their works and minds are manipulated by the guide they put so much faith in to figure out the greater good for them that they cannot properly take responsibility for, or properly perceive to avoid outcomes that are anything but holy, just, sensible, or a greater good.

When you consign yourself to subservience to a plan you don't try to understand, you become its tool, and it disgusts me to see how proudly some flaunt this fact in a way that shows so blatantly that they do not understand that it is this that allows corruption.

Taking responsibility for one's own actions and good intentions and efforts or works toward the construction of a plan that is inherently meant to control, manipulate, and enslave does not change the fact that one is guilty of aiding the plan and its results.

And its much like taking responsibility for allowing organized corruption in a way.

So is the way of blind faith, the herd will faithfully follow the shepard over the cliff and then blame satan or some such thing for their misleading while still patting themselves on the back for their strength in the unwavering faith.

quote:
Have you done some great good for man kind?


Absolutely, I woke up, and refused to be put back to sleep while continuing to help try to wake others.

quote:
Have you invented some new vaccine that will cure the world of some terrible disease?


I did not invent truth, but I do seek it and try to pass around my findings for conversational purposes meant to instigate mutual learning sessions to get people off the lies they're addicted to to the point of disease in pandemic proportions.

quote:
Do the leaders of the world come to you for advice on how to solve their difficult problems?


Of course not, because I am their problem, for I will not stand for their corruption and abuse of posistions of authority and power.

Though they did think me fitting for the field of military intelligence during my stay in the armed forces, apparently for my ability to take diffuse and seemingly unconnected or even contradictory information or even that which is completely invisible to general masses and find the patterns to break the codes that hide the true intentions of messages that intelligent people thought were intentional misdirection intended to hide something, and what self labotimized sheeple held as sacred truth and worshipped, not even worshipping the truth of course, but worshipping themselves for thinking the held the truth.

But that is really irrelevant given the context of the conversation, right?....

quote:
Maybe you should try taking off your training wheels as you said.


I can't take off your training wheels sir, that is your job.

Mine have been off for some time but poor lost indoctrinated nut jobs keep trying to put them back on. Not meaning you, I hope.

quote:
You say you have 52 months of explanation behind you, explanation of what?


Really? You do know that was an answer to a question of yours, a what that you presented, yes? Why I'm "down on" religion... ring a bell?

quote:
Why your so consumed by self


This only happens when I don't eat enough...wait, think it over first, it might even be funny.

quote:
I'd love to see them.


http://www.captaincynic.com/userthreads/29597/ironwood.htm

quote:
To see what makes you think your opinion is the only one that maters and is the only one that's valid in your eyes.


I can tell you that if that is what you are looking for, you won't find it unless you create it yourself.

But if you are simply seeking innaccuracies in data or human foibles, you will find plenty to pick at I'm sure, most I have hopefully learned from, but if you find any more in need of refinement, you know where to find me.

quote:
Finally, as for you picture you chose to put over your user name, I'd say it fitting for you.


I thought so too, so much rich symbolism, so many things being said at once, so jovial yet so deep and meaningful, though often coming across as crude to those who deny nature in place of self loathing traditions and "beliefs". I'm glad we have come to see eye to eye on things.

Now I must take a moment to ask again some questions as I truly do wish to pick your brain and utilize your education.

quote:
Can you clarify something, you seem to be fairly familiar with the bible, were angels given free will?


quote:
And do you agree or disagree with the notion that god already knows the outcome of these little games he plays to teach us things that he could very well just make us understand?


quote:
Could disprove that naturalman is the abrahamic god?


Perhaps in another thread, I would also like to hear your definition of god and your rationalization of any personally held beliefs of god, religion, etc. Including periods of different beliefs and resulting revelations, like those you alluded to earlier.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
[  Edited by Ironwood at   ]
 57yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Tracer165 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Ironwood,
First I wrote so little and to me it seemed you pulled it out of context and misunderstood everything I wrote. Right or wrong its what I felt. I feel you read a little too much into it and then commented out of emotion, which to you seemed logical. Don't misunderstand me on this point as I feel you have on so many others. What may seem logical to me may not to you, again not that I'm right in what I see as logical and you're not. Its just my views compared to yours, no right or wrong on either ones part in it. To me, you go back and forth on your comments and to me it seems you compare everything you read with how you perceive things to be and everything is measured by how you understand things to be. Again I am not trying to disqualify anything you have written even if I don't agree with you on the things you wrote, that I felt that I may have understood. So I wrote in and attempt to try and clear up what I wrote but again, I feel, you did not understand the majority of what I wrote. It could be the same way with me in the reading of your posted reply's. Maybe we can both agree on this point. You say I wrote from emotion, are you going to suggest that you did not? If so, then I will tell you that you are lying to yourself. Writing, whether yours or mine are all written from emotion. I can see from the way you used many of my quotes that again, I feel, you didn't understand me in the slightest. Perhaps its something in your life and I'm not meaning that in a negative way at all. Example; just as from the eyes of a fire fighter, he may see fire as a destructive force only but for say from the eyes of an Eskimo he may see fire as life. Poor example maybe but I hope you get the point.
For us to go back and forth on this is to me pointless and unprofitable for either of us.
As far as the last part of you post, you have asked for my views so those I will answer. Questions as follows,

Now I must take a moment to ask again some questions as I truly do wish to pick your brain and utilize your education.
quote:

Can you clarify something, you seem to be fairly familiar with the bible, were angels given free will?

I'm not sure all of what you are looking for but they were. If I fail to cover all of your questions in this area please let me know and I will try to answer any of your concerns you feel I may not have addressed.
Yes, that is why the Bible tells us that one third followed Satan. If they were not given free will then they would not have been at liberty to follow him. God proclaims of Himself that he is not the God of force, so to withdraw the privilege of free will upon His creation would be force. At the first, the Bible tells us that Satan was the covering cherub. I don't know how much you know about that position but it mainly met that as far as all the created creatures were concerned, he was head. All the will of God (the father) was given to the son (Jesus) who gave it to the Lucifer (who later became Satan) who then gave it to all creation. The controversy at hand now is all about the freedom to choose. The very fact that we are all still alive proves that God is giving us time to learn for ourselves the truth in the controversy between God and Satan.
Let me just say here too that what one believes to be truth may not be. In other words I can say God is a little green man and another can say, no He is a tall blue man. The fact of the matter is we can both be wrong unless we have something to go by. I believe this to be the Bible. If you ask me for my view points I can give you those, if you're asking me what I believe the Bible says concerning a certain mater then you are asking me something entirely different. For answers to these types of questions I will give you scripture references. And if there is something you may have read in the Bible that you find troubling, then ask, who knows maybe I can clear it up for you, with Gods help of course.
Satan's name at first before he fell was Lucifer, which means 'light bearer' or bearer of Gods will if you would, Satan means, adversary of God.
Note, a little question for you, go look at Genesis, the first book in the Old Testament. It says on the first day of creation God created 'light', but what we would call light, the sun moon and stars, were created the fourth day. Tell me then, what was the light?

quote:

And do you agree or disagree with the notion that god already knows the outcome of these little games he plays to teach us things that he could very well just make us understand?

I guess I will have to disagree with you on this. I do not feel that God is playing games with us. I don't know why you feel this way or what brings you to this conclusion so I guess it would be hard for me to answer you concerning something I don't believe the same way as you. But I will tell you this, as a small boy I used to attend many different churches so at an early age I believed in God, although I knew little about Him. As I got older I saw many things in my life that were very hard for me to deal with, like the death of my two older brothers. As my life seemed be going worse than anything I could ever have imagined, I began to turn toward God for the answers. My first choice, since I drove a truck all day, was to listen to the radio evangelist. Let me just say I feel that's a bad route for anyone to take although I didn't know that then. The same goes for the one's on TV. I later began to turn to God through prayer, hoping that he would put my life back on some reasonable track. Rather than what it was, something that was making me want to just end it all. It seemed the more I prayed the more it my life unraveled and the more angry I became with God. Finally I challenged Him through a final prayer, God, I said, I know I'm not the best person in the world but I'm not some terrible person either, like some Ted Bundy or anything. If your singling me out for some reason, as I felt He was, then you need to show me what it is that I'm doing so wrong and show me what it is that I need to do right, other wise stay out of my life.
Without going on extensively let me tell you, from that hour my life changed. I had ideas of how God was and how he operated, we all do, right or wrong we all do. That is what I met earlier by preconceived Ideas. Long story short, it took me many years to understand that God does not play games with anyone.


quote:

Could disprove that naturalman is the abrahamic god?


Sorry, I don't understand what it is your asking here at all? Are you sure its worded right? Maybe you can word it another way and I'll give it another shot. If you want.

Perhaps in another thread, I would also like to hear your definition of god and your rationalization of any personally held beliefs of god, religion, etc. Including periods of different beliefs and resulting revelations, like those you alluded to earlier.

You're really asking a lot there. That is something that just can't be shoved into a few small paragraphs.
I think from some of the things I read in your writings, there are some things we can agree on.

Sorry it took so long to get back. I haven't had a chance to get online for a few days

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 43yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
First I wrote so little and to me it seemed you pulled it out of context and misunderstood everything I wrote.


As I explained I commented beyond your statements, as they were, as I stated, ambiguous, making no assumptions of you and allowing you the opportunity to clarify your personal posistions in regards to the subject and infinite amount of available perceptions, which were even narrowed down to the most common that I encounter.

But instead you failed to understand your own lacking significance to my statements, and in turn, took things personal and pulled everything out of context and misunderstood everything I wrote.

quote:
it seems you compare everything you read with how you perceive things to be and everything is measured by how you understand things to be


No kidding, that is how we all work sir, that is common sense, you can't do anything but that.

But again, you aren't even making this point in context due to the fact that you were, and likely still are, incorrectly assuming that I'm making percieved judgements of you and that all my statements are directly aimed at you, though, now that I've been given more to work with that is indeed becoming more of the case.

quote:
Again I am not trying to disqualify anything you have written even if I don't agree with you on the things you wrote


How could you possibly be disqualifying anything even if you were intending to. You simply refuse to specify and make and direct statements or responses of clarification.

Do you see the generalized ambiguity yet? I will certainly not assume that you do.

quote:
I feel, you did not understand the majority of what I wrote.


Like what? Help me understand if I am so stupid, please, because you are hurting my thinker with such expressions which are becoming increasingly difficult not to be seen as sheer idiocy.

quote:
You say I wrote from emotion, are you going to suggest that you did not?


Of course not, the difference I specified and clarified in depth already whas that my point was not a generalized emotional reaction making a personally directed assumption as yours was, instead I defined an unpersonalized generalization, again, making no assumption of you and allowing you the opportunity to clarify your personal posistion, and I did so with emotion.

So in other words, the emotion was not the issue to begin with, but you cannot seem to properly infer context and instead choose to make out of context arguments about irrelevant points and so it would seem this will continue indefinitely.

quote:
I can see from the way you used many of my quotes that again, I feel, you didn't understand me in the slightest.


Well how about you fucking specify for a change and we might be able to do something about that.

I would pre-empt this by stating that if you want to come to a better mutual understanding that you had probably take into account the oh so slightest possibility that perhaps YOU are failing to understand something.

I always allow for that possibility, both for myself, and for others, at this point, especially you.

You wouldn't be repeatedly saying I misunderstood you if you had understood that I never claimed to know your posistional intent and had repeatedly pointed out how you have never clarified or defined it for me to understand or misunderstand to begin with.

This is other than the original intent of your claim through scripture that anyone was speaking evil of a 13 year old girl which I explained was not the case regardless of your perception of it.

Even her own response was that people had gotten technical, not verbally abusive.

The rest has been utter nonsense brought forth by you struggling with your ego.

quote:
Example; just as from the eyes of a fire fighter, he may see fire as a destructive force only but for say from the eyes of an Eskimo he may see fire as life.


I could easily point this at you and explain why, but untill I get any indication that you are capable of understanding anyone but yourself, whom you may only think you understand, I will save my virtual breath.

quote:
Yes, that is why the Bible tells us that one third followed Satan. If they were not given free will then they would not have been at liberty to follow him.


I was not asking for your inferred meaning, but a scripturally stated fact.

The point of the question was to verify as scripturally stated fact, yes or no, due to expressions of existing blatant contradictions cited in biblical texts about such topics.

Of course your inferrence makes sense, but that was not the quesiton, to the best of my recollection, angels did not have souls and were created to do gods bidding, not an act of free will, and then there were questions about their emotional capabilities in contradiction to their expressed jealousies and other such contradictory points of this nature.

quote:
if you're asking me what I believe the Bible says concerning a certain mater then you are asking me something entirely different. For answers to these types of questions I will give you scripture references.


Yes, I am asking for scriptural references.

quote:
I guess I will have to disagree with you on this. I do not feel that God is playing games with us.


But that was only part of the quesiton, and the less important part at that.

quote:
You're really asking a lot there. That is something that just can't be shoved into a few small paragraphs.


That's funny, people do it here all the time.

quote:
I think from some of the things I read in your writings, there are some things we can agree on.


Don't be so vague, feel free to clarify.

quote:
Note, a little question for you, go look at Genesis, the first book in the Old Testament. It says on the first day of creation God created 'light', but what we would call light, the sun moon and stars, were created the fourth day. Tell me then, what was the light?


This is interesting, how about you give me your thoughts on what you think this light is, so far I gather that you mean it to be god's will due to stating...

quote:
'light bearer' or bearer of Gods will

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 38yrs • F •
vivalaevolution is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
Ok. For those who are trying to get into heated debates about who's smarter learn how to spell or at least check it. It makes you look retarded. I'm tired of Christians and everyone else using every stupid little thing (aka internet posts) as an excuse to take out your frustrations with your own life. Yes Christianity is harsh and unforgiving most of the time but life is harsh and unforgiving so I guess it goes along with everything else we experience. I am not going to take sides because I just really don't care enough to do so and I also have to attend to other issues that are more important (I have to pee and I'm thirsty). I think we should all just get over it (even me).

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"Sometimes you gotta say so what?"
Cellphone VS Bible - Page 3
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