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Incursions in to girl space

User Thread
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that CodeWarrior is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Incursions in to girl space
Recently a friend of a friend announced that for her birthday party it was her intention to have an all girl aromatherapy party. I asked my friend why and her answer was the usual unsatisfactory, 'sometimes girls just like to hang out with just girls'. In fact the arguments for these little corners of girl onlyness only make me suspect even more that they are unfair emotional exclusion zones who's principal purpose is to salve fears born from prejudicial perceptions of men.

Take another example. I was speaking to another girl online about her job as an ann summers rep. Ann summers is a company that, among other things, runs tuper wear like parties at which the products on sale are predominantly lingerie and sex toys. One of the rules this corporation enforces stringently is that no men are allowed to attend. If women ask if they can bring men along they are told that this would breach a law (either on holding orgies or inciting orgies). To the best of my knowledge numerous planed and discreetly advertised orgies take place up and down this country every year and I was asking my friend if this law was fictitious (as I believed it to be). She quite plainly said it was nothing to do with the law, it's just their companies policy.

Now this is what gets me. The arguments used to defend this sort of thing are totally sexist in my view. The usual argument is A because it wouldn't be the same if men were there and B because men can hang out with them on other occasions so they shouldn't feel left out. Now B is obviously invalidated by A because if there is some thing that is different about these all girl events that is valuable enough for women to go out of their way to get it (and some like these event's so much they like them very regularly) then men in general may reasonably surmise there is some novel, potentially enjoyable, experience to be had there that is being denied them. Ergo they are being left out.

Indeed some girls make no secret of this. As one girl put it to me, 'what happens on the girls night out stays on the girls night out' and claimed ,'girls night out is much more fun on the boys night out. I've been on both and the boys night is full of penis measuring contests, nothing compared to the girls night out'. To girls like this their girl only space is like a secret club with it's own secret privileges and it's own not so secret smugness.

Now it's argument A I find most infuriating. Try asking a girl why it would be different if a man was there and they almost invariably reply, 'because it just is'. Let me refine the question, 'why, at an event with a girlish theme, would a man, who was whole heatedly wishing to go along with that theme and not looking to change the atmosphere, necessarily make things any different?' And girls before you say, because it just would is not a valid response. It seems to me that if the atmosphere is different under those circumstances it can only be because the girls there have made a choice. A choice to believe that no man can possible be interested in and able to join in the fun in the same way their female friends do. That to me can be nothing other than sexist and prejudicial.

When you think about it girls have a sizeable portion of social life exclusively reserved for girls. Numerous jobs are extremely hard for men to get. Just you try applying for a job as a male bra fitter or see how far you get applying to work at a beauty salon (even with qualifications most male beauty therapist are forced to set up their own practices). Numerous uk universities retain all women halls or residence only one all male. We have ladies nights, the girls night out, female only health spas, female only parties and god help the man who suggests he ought to be allowed in on these things. On the other hand male only events are only male in name. Women might easily get invited to tag along to most of them. The only real exception I can think to that is a stag party where most men would object to women present.

A complaint I frequently hear from feminists is that many men give lip service to equality but in day to day practical decision making in the work place most of it goes out the window. My challenge is to consider this. How can women expect men to treat them like their business equals and peers when women won't treat them as their social equals and peers. If a women decide to close off such a large part of her social world to men then what she is in effect saying is that the friendship and support of her male friends lacks something special that her female friendships have. That's hardly an attitude that's going to make people think of you as their equal and peer.

So what do you think people? Is it time for women to open up their girl only social circles to men? Is it some thing men need to fight for the same way women did? Should we start changing our selves to the railings at ann summers stores, spas and beauty salons demanding equal treatment? Is it time for an invasion of girl space or are the borders about to open up any way?

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[  Edited by CodeWarrior at   ]
 32yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that Attolia is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Why do girls only circles exist in the first place? Does a man's presence create an unwanted sexually-charged atmosphere? Are certain feminine behaviors expected in women's circles that men can not act out?

Women's only circles have existed and continue to exist because:
1) women relate to women better in matters concerning the body
2) women related better to women as housewives and mothers
3) there is no sexual tension or sexual power struggle in heterosexual women-only groups
4) if a woman conforms to society's code of femininity, she would relate to others who conform to that to, namely, other women

I am not implying that men can not join women's circles. I think the most powerful factor is number 3. That may be the main reason. Men and women are sexual creatures. Women (and men) occasionally want a non-sexed atmosphere. What about the lingerie shops and spas? Same thing. Do you want a woman measuring your penis or rubbing her hands over your body? That implies some kind of sexual atmosphere and you may not want that with a stranger.

This is all I can say. I look forward to hearing other opinions.

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"How can we be just in a world without mercy and merciful in a world without justice?"
 64yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that Chiron is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Code Warrior you are delectable!
And because of this I wanted to share a bit of my own anecdotal 'girly 'point-of-view So if you will indulge me (it might shed some light on your own frustrations to do with being left out.)

Once when I was about your age, I had a magnificent love affair with someone who seemed somewhat like yourself. And looking back, I daresay that had he (first off) wanted to dive into the girly side of things, I might have resisted (due to a slight feeling of bashfulness - not unlike the way you felt when I complimented you and said I hoped you'd stick around in ‘girly world'?).
Anyway, judging from what you have also said, this might have been an early end to our relationship…

But…, as luck would have it, he happened to pop by my flat one evening unexpectedly. And there I was: with my hair in a top-not, hot bath running, pale blue face-mask plastered-on, and blinking in utter dismay at my most recent love interest standing in the doorway while I wished the ground would open up and swallow me whole!

Now from a female point of view, I thought that this was going to be the end of ‘us'. But oh contraire! My lover was delighted to enter into this cozy girly domain, and a previously unimagined dimension of our relationship grew as a result.

From that time on he would arrive with Champagne under one arm, a tube of facemask in his top pocket, and an evening of bliss would result. We would lie back together on either side of the bathtub, both wearing facemasks, Champagne in an ice bucket on the floor, a glass of bubbly in hand…

And oh how we talked!
We talked about absolutely everything, we talked until the champagne ran dry and our skin went wrinkly in the bath, and then we scraped the face masks off and went and made passionate love, ate supper with our fingers, and 'girly night' continued almost till dawn, and was a whole new occasion!

Never has a facemask done more for a woman (or a man's) skin!

Once when we were out together, he swerved into a department store cosmetics counter and started making inquiries about skin care products. You know, girly type things. The sales attendant indulged him with a degree of sarcasm, and even rolled her eyes in my direction as if to say ‘ Vain bastard! And I suppose he is actually going to use all this stuff!'

I just smiled. How could I tell her that she was attending to the world's most drop-dead-sexy man? How could she know that skin-care held so much potential for romance? How could anyone believe that such introspective soul searching discussions could emanate out of these mundane girly world activities?

The fact is that men that are up this are a rarity, and I think you will find that most women don't believe that men can bridge this gap into girly world.
And if they do, I think all women will find them drop-dead-sexy!

Since then I have met other men who piqued my interest when they displayed an interest in cosmetic artifice. But, sigh… oh no! Nothing quite so boring as a narcissistic male with whom you must compete to get to the bathroom mirror, or use the hairdryer!

Please don't give up on your 'girly world' explorations; but remember, most women just do not believe you can make the leap.

I feel sure you can, so good luck!

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 32yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Jacker_Jones is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Why don't girls let men in on their girls night outs? They probably just want to go one night where someone isn't trying to fuck them every three seconds. A break from it all.

quote:
Do you want a woman measuring your penis or rubbing her hands over your body?


I guess this is one of the things that make men and women different

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"I love to see people struggling for their purpose in life..."
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that CodeWarrior is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
women relate to women better in matters concerning the body


Well. I imagine disabled people feel the same way. That other disabled people can understand them in terms of bodily matters in ways the abeled bodied would struggle with. Yet we don't see many disabled only social gatherings. Disabled people often have more able bodied friends than disabled. I suspect this is largely because people don't assume being disabled automatically says a lot about what sort of person you are where as they do think gender says a lot about that.

quote:
women related better to women as housewives and mothers


I know a guy who's drunked ex wife accused him of beating his children to keep him from seeing them. Years latter when his ex wife finally had a huge break down and the courts got around to properly investigating the accusations they awarded him sole custody and ordered him to give up his job and live on benefits to become a full time house father which he was more than happy to do after years of fighting for the right to see his kids.

My point is there are plenty of men who do the 'job' of house wife and mother and do it just as well so it's rather sexist of women to assume men cant relate to them on that level.

quote:
there is no sexual tension or sexual power struggle in heterosexual women-only groups


Ok well why does there have to be when men are present? Why do we have to make every situation where men and women com in to contact about sex? An even if there is a sexual interest why does that have to be a power struggle. As I've said this is what I truly hate about the way most people treat relationships. Almost as if it was some sort of competitive game played against the very person you profess to be interested in romantically. I'm sure many other men feel the same way and would love to simply hang out with women in an environment when this game isn't going on.

quote:
if a woman conforms to society's code of femininity, she would relate to others who conform to that to, namely, other women


This is possible the most substantial reason i can think of. It always seems to come down to social preconceptions in my book. People assume women are about one set of things and men another. It's no less bigoted than assuming all black men are muggers.

quote:
Do you want a woman measuring your penis or rubbing her hands over your body? That implies some kind of sexual atmosphere and you may not want that with a stranger.


I don't want anyone handling my penis unless i have really strong feelings for her. I went to a tailors just under 2 weeks ago to buy my first ever suit. I'd never been fitted for one before. I didn't know quite what to expect but i decided before hand if the tailor expected to follow me in to the fitting room to take measurements or do adjustments i was sending him out.

Like wise I have doctor friend and when i thought about it I realised out of all the doctors in the world if I needed one to do any examining down there I'd rather have her. simply because we're friends and I'd be more comfortable with that than a stranger. If i were a woman i very much doubt I'd be fitted nude by a strange women. Yet many people are so I don't see why a women who is prepared to let a women measure her breasts shouldn't let me do so. It's the assertion that such a situation would be sexual I object to. That I can't treat a women in that situation just as objectively and professionally as any women.

quote:
Why don't girls let men in on their girls night outs? They probably just want to go one night where someone isn't trying to fuck them every three seconds. A break from it all.


It's the assertion they can't get that when we, particularly I, am there that offends me. Not every man is a sex obsessed player on the pull and many men, me included, don't like being tarred with that brush.

quote:
Please don't give up on your 'girly world' explorations; but remember, most women just do not believe you can make the leap.

I feel sure you can, so good luck!


I don't intend to give up on anything yet. I just need to get more creative and proactive.

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 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that CodeWarrior is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
well I keep trying to be creative and proactive but I could use a bit of input and this forum is pretty dead so lets give it a werl. I've had a crazy idea on how to 'break in' to girly world. That is simply that I can hardly be kept out of events i myself organize. So, I'm thinking of trying to put on some 'girly events' that are sufficiently 'girly' to make them feel they have entered a 'girly zone' them selves but, at least initially, not so unusual tat they would find it totally weird that I would throw such an event (and so would not be put off coming). Clearly this is a tall order but I'd appreciate suggestions.

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 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Cynic-Al is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
the ultimate in girly event that a guy can go to would be a chocolate pudding party. you organise a get together and provide some drinks, then everyone who turns up has to either make or purchase a chocolate dessert of their choice, then the evening is happily spent sampling every single one .

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"So Schrodinger's Cat is not only neither dead nor alive, but might also be sexually aroused by elbows and peanut butter?"
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that CodeWarrior is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Hum. I've never heard of such a thing. That said it doesn't seem the sort of thing that would normally be girl only or that would inspire 'girly bonding'. Maybe I'm wrong. never heard of such a thing as I said.

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 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Cynic-Al is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
As far as I'm aware chocolate is the ultimate girly bonding tool

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"So Schrodinger's Cat is not only neither dead nor alive, but might also be sexually aroused by elbows and peanut butter?"
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that CodeWarrior is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
How odd that I have such difficulties along those lines as I consume the stuff by the ton.

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 64yrs • F •
A CTL of 1 means that Chiron is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Hello again lads,

Haven't been around this spot for a while, and it cheers me to find you two still hanging-out here. Cynic: I am sending you a virtual-hug for your idea about the chocolate party!
Its such an adorably sweet 'boy-idea' (forgive me please, I hope that does not sound too patronizing, but it really is very cute).

CD: I think your gut-feel is right, chocolate isn't going to be quite enough here. Trouble is, girls very often do chocolate-binges when they feel sad or have the blues. So you don't want to go there yet.

I do think its nice to have something chocolaty to eat, if you plan to cater for eats. But aim first off at deciding what kind of female company you seek (this is crucial for the planing of the next phase), because girls are just like boys in that there are different strokes for different folks.

Let me know, and I will be glad to make some suggestions...



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 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that CodeWarrior is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
That's kind of the hard part. My female friends at the moment kind of fall in to 2 and a half categories. 1st there's the quiet / prim, ones, a lot of my oriental and christian friend fall in to that category. Then there are the christian girls who are very lively, even a bit wild, but have 'propriety' issue. That is they are quite happy to joke about with each other or in your presence but as soon as you try to join in feel the need to behave 'properly' in the company of a man and act offended if you joke about in the same for of way they do with each other. Then there are the secular girls I know who vary from the amiable and open minded to the totally wild.

My problem with the 1st group is they have a terrible track record of turning up for things and trying to get them to come to anything is an up hill struggle they are either always busy or simply can't be bothered to take a 15 minuet train ride (most of them live in the neighboring city where I study at university). The problem with the other group is that I mostly know them through math departmental social functions and alike and so we're not that close, also they live in this neighboring city so wether I could tempt them over for a night in is an unknown quantity, I suspect a night out is the better bet in their case but I've even less idea (were that possible) how to arrange a girly night out than I do in.

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 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Cynic-Al is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I think you're get together should aim to cater for the middle group, that way any of the more "prim" friends may have the niceties shocked slightly but not too much, and the wild girls will have some entertainment but hopefully refrain from anything that will alienate the other groups. You could always try some kind of film night, and watch something like "sliding doors" which is a chick flick but isn't your normal american highschool trash.

To deal with the distance I suggest you find one of your closest friends in the middle category of your social list, and enlist there help as a possible host. You still organise it and therefore cannot be excluded but a lot of the problem is solved as
a) it is being held by a girl.
and
b) in the right city for them.

where are you at uni btw?

@ chiron don't worry I don't feel at all patronised. The idea isn't in fact mine, it was something my parents were invited to by a church group, but several female friends of mine latched onto the idea as a potential birthday party idea, and the idea was met by much more enthusiasm by the girls than the guys.

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"So Schrodinger's Cat is not only neither dead nor alive, but might also be sexually aroused by elbows and peanut butter?"
 37yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that CodeWarrior is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
The thing is that middle group is not exactly huge, plus most of them in student flats and so couldn't really 'authorize' an invasion of their flat mates space. I'm not sure if I wouldn't sound unreasonable. I'm sure they'd say I had other, closer, friends in leeds who could host such an event and I doubt they'd be very supportive of the aim.

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 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Cynic-Al is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
kk was only a suggestion, but is there anyone who would be willing to help you with that kind of thing, as you only seem to be saying that the middle group would be unwilling, would anyone else be likely to let you?

what do you study btw? (sorry if I'm being too nosey) one of my friends is a medic at leeds uni.

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"So Schrodinger's Cat is not only neither dead nor alive, but might also be sexually aroused by elbows and peanut butter?"
Incursions in to girl space
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