But yet I am firmly persuaded that a great deal of consciousness, every sort of consciousness, in fact, is a disease. - Fyodor Dostoevsky
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The Disease of Religious Fundamentalism

User Thread
 42yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
The Disease of Religious Fundamentalism
Armageddon at all costs.

Bypassing the insanity that allows such blind hypocricy of opposing relgions to continue acting as if one religion's fundamentalists are the bane of the planet while anothers is its savior...

Has it ever occured or botherd anyone else that most noted mainstream religions just can't wait for the end of the world? (Not that they are waiting mind you)

How about how they all generally want to take over the world imposing religious governments, abolishing all other religions, and generally through the conversion or bloodshed of their opposition? Again, for a smooth coming of the end of times.

Any problems with that?

I bring this up because of the fact that, although talk of the influence of the religious fundamentalism in western countries has somewhat subsided since the blatant, intentional, and revolting invocations and terminology of Bush in response to 9/11, though talk has subsided, the influence has been increasing.

Firstly, how many of you truly register the fact that George W. Bush is the current designated leader of this country's religious right? Or what an Evangelical Christian is? Or that this is indeed an unprecedented development in our country's short history.

Most recently, developments in this context can be noted in claims of a war on christmas, christianity and the like. I submit that there is a war not against religion, but on secularism.

When I say that this fundamentalist religious influence is growing, I mean in the most significant and, well, dangerous of ways. From within the heart of our government, the seat of power and influence. With a seemingly endless parade of new appointees to this or that possistion.

Fox news warrants mention especially when referrencing possistions of influence in context of the religious right.

Due to time constraints I will end this initial post with asking if you know the difference between a Christian and an Evangelical Christian? And the significance of that difference?

Evangelicals are fundamentalists.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
[  Edited by Ironwood at   ]
 42yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
A reason why I brought this up was due to mentalities of western fundamentalists who are not nearly as focused upon in western society, go figure. If its under your own nose, you can't see the problem right?

Not just because I find these mentalities distasteful and flat out astounding in the degree of hypocricy that only one truly blind in their faith can't see, but because of the actions taken in their desire to fulfill religious agendas, personal agendas of religious leaders, and "prophecy".

The specific aspects of this mentality that I'm calling into question are religious exclusiveness (only 1 true religion with all others being a threat to it mentality), agendas determined to create a one world government ruled by religious doctrine, and the desire for armageddon (even to the point of doing everything in their power to make it happen, making them terrorists by all definitions).

A thought that embodies the hypocricy that there is no way to avoid repeating myself about, is that most religious people, especially fundamentalists, are shocked to be somehow thought of as associated with terrorists.

Even though the dubbed #1 terrorist and current "profile" of a terrorist is a middle eastern muslim (a religion, and a very large one) extremist fundamentalist. Cracks me up I tell ya.

So, does anyone beside myself see a possible problem with the notion of people having a desire to fulfill religious prophesy, especially those in a possistion of power who can have actual influence over world events to create the circumstances dictated in those prophecies?

Some won't bat an eye when they tell you that the only way to save the world... is to end it. Well I say fuck all that noise. End your own life and let us poor lost souls worry about what to do about us.

Call me crazy, but I don't think giant cults following ancient texts to the point of claiming as factual events of seemingly obvious fabrication, and prophecies detailed in pure ambiguity make for the best judges of how to run the world, let alone being behind the wheels of war machines.

I'm in no way sorry for saying that if you are of the mentality that someone is an infadel, heathen, evil, or somehow wrong, just because they claim belief in something other than what you claim to believe, and or because you've been told to feel that way under those circumstances, than you are not of sound mind or judgement and have no place in possistions of authority or power.

By no means is religion itself a bad thing. But superstition, discrimination, paranoia, lies and blind faith in them can indeed be or lead to bad things.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 60yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
First of all I do believe you are correct with this end of the world thing. As I explained to a gentleman at theology on the web, the only fear I have in believing that Jesus is going to come back and save us is that now we don't have to worry about what destruction we might cause because Jesus is going to fix it all. Those of us involved in religion, we do need to iron this out and come up with the right attitude about this.

quote:
I submit that there is a war not against religion, but on secularism.


It is important that we know who our friends are and recognize the true enemy.

There is a small group of Christians in Iraq waging peace, and they've been there for some time.

The salvation army, minnonites, Quakers, and I'm sure there are others.

Most of your Christian churches give to the poor as the bible teaches them to. However, there is a group of powerful Xtians who give to themselves and have built up a large amount of capital. They use this capital to influence both the church and politics.

You can follow this tradition all the way back to the Pharisees who had Jesus nailed to the cross. They're the same people who mistake Mammon for God. They were here yesterday, they are here today and you will see them tomorrow. You will find them anyplace where money buys power.

A right wing blogger, I think has his blog on MSNBC - but I'm not sure - but he sent me an angry email because of a comment I made. I posted it on my blog, but unfortunately my blog is such a large mess I can't find it.

But I think he told the truth when he explained that Bush doesn't believe in God, no one who supports him does, don't ever believe what the media tells you, we support Bush because he wants to kill all the Muslims.

Despite all appearance, I think it is prejudice and not religion that rallys his support.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 42yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Despite all appearance, I think it is prejudice and not religion that rallys his support.


Well put. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

And from what I've seen and heard I agree with this statement as well.

quote:
But I think he told the truth when he explained that Bush doesn't believe in God


Due to his penchant for non christian cult rituals, and the fact that the entire Bush family, but especially W., are experts at manipulating public perception through masquerades to gain whatever target audience approval.

The Bushes are entrenched in the highest levels of politics, business and sales, secret societies, and clandestine operations governmentally and otherwise. These epitomize, especially if lawyers are added, but thats mostly their friends, epitomize the largest culmination of professions whose primary tools are deception, influence, and other people's money.

Bush has been remarked as openly candid about his religion and consistent with his claims, yet he has also been quoted by white house aids as rude, crude, blasphemous, and emotionally unstable. He is filmed swearing and flipping off cameras like any good christian.

But people think he's just rough around the edges, a cowboy even. He's nothing of the sort, sure he's crude rebel in terms of being a ivy leaguer, but he's a cheerleader from the north east raised in luxury who is afraid of horses, won't ride em to save his life.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 33yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Different cultures lend themselves to different trains of thought. All these multiple religions can serve to confuse people, create miscommunication between cultures who do not understand each other. The problem, is the polarization of mainstream religions, where each subculture 'cult' has become isolated from the other. Every mainstream religion and race has shortcomings, failings and weak spots. Oh I wish the world was free of religion. That is not to say spirituality would not exist.

Ask yourself and others, are you part of the problem or the solution? Is there a solution to trans-religous corruption? Unfortunately when differing doctrines and dogmas attempt a 'solution' (that is of course 'if they attempt' ), then their opinions purely resolve down to differing ethical issues and morality.

The human condition has the capacity to accept other cultures. However unfortunately to be able to only understand one culture is like limiting yourself to one set of clothes, or one way of thinking. It is stupid.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 32yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Cynic-Al is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
religions sumply could not exist without the belief that they aone are correct. what point is there in believing in something to try to attain salvation, if you can accept that others will recieve salvation through another means, only atheists can believe that, because they believe that there is no salvation to recieve, and therefore whether your good and believe some hokum or not you will get the same end result.

there is manipulation within all religion but all religion would also claim, that this manipulation is manmade and not of their religion. humans use religion to push a point, and fool others that they are doing it for the religion to get support they would not otherwise recieve. be religion true or manmade, it makes not difference it is an ideal that is hard to stick to. watching the average person attempt religion, is like watching miss dunkin doughnut 2006 attempt a diet, you just know it wont happen.

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"So Schrodinger's Cat is not only neither dead nor alive, but might also be sexually aroused by elbows and peanut butter?"
 42yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
humans use religion to push a point, and fool others that they are doing it for the religion to get support they would not otherwise recieve.


Exactly, the problem I refer to is not that world leaders act or are religious, but through sometimes admitted "Machavellian" techniques those leaders manipulate followers, but mainly only fundamentalist followers, because religious people with common sense know that holy wars are bullshit and not a good thing.

quote:
Different cultures lend themselves to different trains of thought.


Well, unfortunately, those different trains of thought can produce the same results, masses following and believing in whatever a leader may say when said in a certain way, even if that means justifying war.

quote:
Despite all appearance, I think it is prejudice and not religion that rallys his support.


Though true, this does not excuse those who blindly laud Bush and his policy.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 32yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Cynic-Al is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
no but they do say the mob is only as intelligent as its least intelligent member, which unfortunately in americas case is bush.
but he has some clever people behind him who know how to manipulate.

but ur right, all cultures are manipulable. everyone has their weakspots, humans group together, and many want to be led. unfortunately many of the less scrupulous members of our species, are the ones who gain control. and group who want to be lead, are the most easily manipulated.

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"So Schrodinger's Cat is not only neither dead nor alive, but might also be sexually aroused by elbows and peanut butter?"
 60yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I think you are wrong blaming this all on religion, as if it were a belief in God that caused all this myham. It was lust for power and money, and if you can get rid of that, you can save the world, even a world with religion in it.

Communism has proven your theory wrong.

It is unfortunate that so many were so easily decieved by a belief in God, but that means nothing. If everyone believed in a rock, Mr. Bush would simply said, I think that great rock wants me to go to war. He would say what ever he had to say, he would claim to agree with most of the people, no matter what they believed.

The victims are not to blame for the crime, the criminal is. I wish I could find that email I got explaining to me that it had nothing to do with God, I looked again and couldn't find it. I have 1,440 posts, I searched every way I could think of.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 42yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
I think you are wrong blaming this all on religion, as if it were a belief in God that caused all this myham.


Who are you talking to? I see no one who has stated that.

quote:
Communism has proven your theory wrong.


Whose theory, and what theory?

I know I have said...

quote:
By no means is religion itself a bad thing.


But claiming belief in and promoting, pushing, arguing, and even fighting to the death that 2000 year old claims are fact, are indeed bad things.

Blind faith in words, claims, people, and their interpretations is bad, irresponsible and indeed the fault of those who turn their minds off and follow without question.

No, an abuser's actions are not the fault of the victim. But the response to it is.

And no, I'm not saying that the responsibility is to fix everything and make all wrongs right. That would take information of what the truth is.

Because as usual, my main point is that people need to realize and be honest with themselves about what they think they know and feel, and why. That people need to admit that they do not know, and that claiming belief in something they do not know, is dishonest to themselves and subsequently to everyone else as well.

You have to be careful when attempting to understand fully what I'm saying, in what context etc.

Because this topic of beliefs contains intersecting and confusing circumstances and contexts.

Claimed belief in a philosophic, metaphysical, or religious ideology is different than a claim of physical factual reality.

For example, saying that a power greater than ourselves exists makes perfect sense, whereas claiming knowledge of this higher power's thoughts, desires, intentions etc. and how all people should react to or live by it does not. As with claiming as fact that claims of events have taken place with no possible way of knowing.

That's just silly.

quote:
It is unfortunate that so many were so easily decieved by a belief in God, but that means nothing.


They were not decieved by a belief in God, that is retarded and no one has claimed it. And the people mentioned in the title of this thread had no need to be decieved. They already wanted what Bush is doing.

These are not the people you are defending and you need to understand that.

But, the people you are defending are still to blame for a point of this post and thread. That they are claiming belief in events and claimed facts that they cannot know. This mentality is irresponsible and their responsibility. This mentality is why they are so easily decieved.

And unlike being unable to currently find the truth or control or fix the actions of abusers of power, their mentality is a factor that they can do something about. And untill they do, there is no hope of fixing anything else.

I've been asked multiple times why I bother, and to simply not bother to debate or confront those zealots of their beliefs, be they in politics or religion, and usually both. But it is these zealots whose passion is the force behind actions that find themselves in debate. And I am not one to treat a symptom rather than address a cause, for it is pointless.

What religious people need to learn and come to terms with, and many level headed ones have, is what the definition of religion is and how what they see and tend to call religion is not it.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 60yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I know that I should quote, but sometimes I don't, I figure the person I'm talking to knows who they are, Anyways.

There is a group of religious fundamentalists who was and maybe a few of them still are Bush loyalists because they believe Bush will kill Israel's enemies and therefor doing the will of God. Believing that God will come once all the nations go to war against Israel and will rain wrath upon Israel enemies.

In this way Bush is a hero who goes to war against the enemies of Israel. But here is the weird part - his closest friend is Saudi Arabia and the Bin Ladin family, he isn't even close to Israel. Israel says, "Bush who?" And of course Michael Moore tried to make everyone see that, he became the bad guy.

Blind faith is a dangerous thing. The bible says study to show thyself approved, most of these read the book of John part of Romans, Acts and a few letters, and of course they've take a revelations course but they've not really read the bible.

Same is true for the terrorist - I bet there isn't one terrorist who actually read the Koran.

Thing about religion is that they trick you, or try to trick you into believing that it is wrong to question. To question means you don't have faith.

Since I have learned to question things I've never felt closer to God. I think God wants us to question, God wants us to learn.

This brings us back to the 9/11 commission that said that the two best ways to stop terrorism is to feed the hungry and educate the poor. If we do neither, then we allow fundamentalist doctrines promising salvation for blind faith to flourish. The mind is like a sponge, it will soak whatever you give it and salvation is a joyful sermon to a hungry stomach.

I think in order to combat fundamentalism here in the U.S., we can do that by showing more support for non fundamental churches.

Here in America it would be against the law to try to eliminate religion all together, and if a person is concerned about some of the things coming out of these churches, then you support the opposition. There is always opposition, that will never change.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 42yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
I know that I should quote, but sometimes I don't, I figure the person I'm talking to knows who they are, Anyways.


Regardless you claimed theories and statements were made that I have not seen. Hence my confusion.

quote:
But here is the weird part - his closest friend is Saudi Arabia and the Bin Ladin family, he isn't even close to Israel.


In this you miss the main constituents of the Bush administration. The entire Jewish zionist cabal that is the heart of the neo conservative movement. These people from the neo con think tanks like Paul Wolfowitz. They are a mix of jewish zionists and evangelical christians, both fundamentalist groups with ideologies extending from post biblical prophets and religious leaders that hold very close ties in beliefs through calvanism and books such as the jewish talmud and zorah. Books that promote heinous acts permissable to the chosen jews with no retribution or need of repentance. Whereas calvanism as practiced by most evangelical christians proclaims no need to not sin once jesus is believed and taken in as the savior, which ironically of course is absolutely not believed by any practicing jew, but evangelicals being (selective) fundamentalists simply desire the prophecy's fulfillment through Israel.

So for those who are soley fundamentalists from within or in promotion of this administration's and Israel's, it is a religious war. Which I believe not to be the case with anyone within the adminstration of america at least. For their main compenent of importance is the military industrial complex, which includes intelligence agencies and world resources.

This aspect which holds the most Bush history creates a war with 1 purpose. Full spectrum dominance, as termed by the neo con think tank and their "Project for a New American Century" or PNAC documents. Military control of the worlds lands and resources, as well as space and anything else.

And both fundamentalists through their religious texts as well as governments through their clandestine rules (none), are able to use any means necessary to achieve their goals, including, and especially, quotable use of deception and murder.

quote:
Same is true for the terrorist - I bet there isn't one terrorist who actually read the Koran.


Seeing as how oppressed Arab muslims are not the source of terrorism, but a symptom of oppression and terrorism against them, specifically in reference to the times since the establishment of the political state of Israel, I take issue with your phrasing.

quote:
Thing about religion is that they trick you, or try to trick you into believing that it is wrong to question. To question means you don't have faith.


Couldn't agree more, and unfortunately, this is what I have the most problems with when it comes to non fundamentalist religious followers. This is the line where even they act as irrational fundamentalists pushing fear, superstition, and all the things that allow for the corruption of those religions. Besides their own texts of course. Which corrupts itself through its own self contradiction such as the old versus the new testament.

quote:
I think in order to combat fundamentalism here in the U.S., we can do that by showing more support for non fundamental churches.


I'm afraid that won't work. If these churches, just as any fundamentalist church, claims unknowns or biblical claims as fact or unquestionable then there is little differentiation.

Or are you referring to some church that is willing to say that they do not know God's will or design? That they do not know for certain of the existance of any truth in any religious claim?

quote:
and if a person is concerned about some of the things coming out of these churches, then you support the opposition.


I'm not sure of your contextual meaning.

But in response to one context, if the things of concern are untruths or unsubstantiated claims of fact, and your support is of the truth, then yes, you would be supporting the opposition.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 60yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Religion is the belief in things that cannot be proven. To better understand religion, a study of the indian religions might help.

When the elders spoke of the great eagle spirit, nobody saw it or heard it but believed in it anyways. Buddhism is only different because it believes in a spirit not outside of you, but inside of you.

While some religions lead to some very bad stuff other religions have to lead to wonderful things.

Like the Essenes - there's an example to follow.

You're not going to make religion go away. The best you can do is help the good religions flourish.

I just recently watched a film and downloaded it to my computer depicting the Bush family as being linked to Nazi Germany who ofcouse believed in killing Jews. But right now jews are popular, muslims aren't - killing Jews isn't politicly correct anymore.

There is this group who call themselves evangelists, followers of Pat Robertson who will now build a theme park in Isreal and that's going to creat some blood shed. I don't know who they are or were they come from? Billy Graham is an evangelist, I don't know what these people are. I used to attend an evangelist church in Connecticut, and none of them people would ever support war. And if the churches are supposed to help the poor like Reagon told them to, where did they get the money to build a theme park? I'm not to happy about that. This will just cause more blood shed.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 42yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Religion is the belief in things that cannot be proven.


Spirits or unseen forces and energies are proven to exist. So I disagree, things that haven't been fully pieced together or completely proven sure.

Religion tends to be a great way for people to get in touch with forces and energies that they would not otherwise, forms of meditation and chanting etc. (which need no religion mind you)

But in actuality, religions tend to hold people back, cutting them off from their true spiritual potential. Once they, as you stated, are taught not to question and to follow rediculous traditions of superstition and control.

quote:
You're not going to make religion go away. The best you can do is help the good religions flourish.



Not trying to, what I'm trying to do is to get people to stop making shit up and lying to themselves and others. So we all may have a chance at finding some very important truths being clouded by rediculousness in the form of fear, hate, deception, control etc. etc.

A good religion to me does not teach people to convince themselves they know physical factual data that they do not. Believing in god and spirits is not impractical in any way, claiming Jesus rose from the dead without doubt is retarded.

I watch as religious people (and non) teach/frighten/command impressionable minds of children that they must believe this or that, or else, and it makes me sick. Some of those minds become warped beyond repair, and I find that unnacceptable.

quote:
And if the churches are supposed to help the poor like Reagon told them to, where did they get the money to build a theme park? I'm not to happy about that.


Yes, televangilists have made themselves rich at the cost of their giving idiots. Many have been shown for the blatant frauds they are, gathering information about patrons then acting as if God told them about their illnesses on live tv etc. Like the Bakkers.

They fight for tv ratings like any other, constantly whining for support to spread the word, and fill their mercedes.

Good ol' Pat, tried to be president against Bush Sr., barf. I hear more condemnation and vileness come from his mouth than most others. You can just feel his bitterness and contempt for the world. God is coming to save him and all who pay his rent, but the rest of us are screwed. Good ol' 700 club.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 60yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
But in actuality, religions tend to hold people back, cutting them off from their true spiritual potential. Once they, as you stated, are taught not to question and to follow ridiculous traditions of superstition and control.


I don't know how or when - but if you are spiritual, you are religious. If you are religious you are spiritual. I think those who argue that spirituality and religion are not the same, believe religion to simply be a dogmatic belief within a church system or doctrine.

Spirituality is a part of religion. While there may be some who claim to be religious, if they have not experienced spirituality then they are not. The one cannot be without the other and be authentic.

I do - I hear people say all the time, say they are spiritual and not religios, as if religion was a bad thing, but they misunderstand religion - but that's alright, religion isn't insulted.

quote:
Not trying to, what I'm trying to do is to get people to stop making shit up and lying to themselves and others. So we all may have a chance at finding some very important truths being clouded by ridiculousness in the form of fear, hate, deception, control etc. etc.



Go to theology on the web and try - believe me, I'm not even safe there.

I wish I could remember names - but there was this man who died some years ago who was a great renowned religious scholar who claimed that great religious leaders of the past actually had mental diseases. He didn't mean this as an insult. If you ever get close to someone who has a mental disease you will notice that they have an uncanny knack of seeing things that other people can't see. While one part of their mind does not work correctly, another part of their mind is stronger and this enables them to enter the spiritual world. He claimed that in the past these people were prophets, magi, medicine men, wizards - what ever that tradition called there religious wonders, while today we put them away, or now medicate them. He supposedly had lots of evidence of this from things he had studied, and people didn't like him because of it.

quote:
claiming Jesus rose from the dead without doubt is retarded


Fully I agree with you there - I don't really have an answer, except I believe some people grow up and grow out of this ignorance if they are made to feel welcome and not persecuted. If you persecute them they will run and hide in there corner and close their eyes and ears and we accomplish nothing, and I done a little bit of this myself I am ashamed to say. The key here is tolerance and a faith in truth. If you have a dark room next to a lighted room and open a door between the two, the light will enter the darkened room and fill it with light, but the darkness will not enter the lighted room. Be patient and believe that truth will prevail.

Concerning the 700 club, the people will accept anyone as a shepard, what a shame - I truly wish to fix that. Maybe thats all you're wanting to do, you and me both.


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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
The Disease of Religious Fundamentalism
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