A Thing Called Shame

A Thing Called Shame [+ favourites]

Is there such a thing left? You have to be ashamed if you went against a cultural restriction. In other cultures, disrespecting parents, being a prostitute, not taking care of your kids, stealing, and more are all shameful acts. These are the ones that are heavily punished or criticized.

Is there anything people are ashamed of these days? Let me be specific and refer only to "western" cultures, like Europe and the U.S (I suppose Canada also fits in.) What do you find that people are ashamed of committing in western cultures?

"How can we be just in a world without mercy and merciful in a world without justice?"

I'm referring to shame as a society. What are the actions that western cultures look down upon? What would cause a public scandal if it were blared all over the news?

"How can we be just in a world without mercy and merciful in a world without justice?"

I would say that incest would cause some controversy.

"Crap. I lost my watch, now I'm lost in time."

By "ashamed" do you mean something which is nobody's buisness but is criticized anyway? I mean, people should be ashamed of pedophilia for example, but I don't think that's what you mean (or is it?)

In parts of western society, homosexuality is shamed, zoophilia is shamed as is use of powerful drugs.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

I think she means shame as in these acts such as disrespect, prostitution and whatnot are regarded as unethical and immoral in other cultures, yet we freely practice it without a thought about the morality.

The problem with "Western" culture is that it's not really a culture at all, with all these emphases on liberty and the rights of the individual, you can't really have a general agreement that things are bad or good. We're not a homogenous society, like many cultures are, so people's ideas clash or work with others.

"Milk, almonds and pistachios."

Well, perhaps our one great moral is to not meddle in another individuals buisness. And by that I mean, we all have different moralities, but we all agree that our morality should not be forced another individual.

In principle anyway. The sad part is, its anything but taboo to attack and judge other people's morality.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

"The sad part is, its anything but taboo to attack and judge other people's morality."

Why is that sad? What's sad is when people are afraid to attack other's immorality.

Because letting other individuals do what they want with themselves, and protection of the individual, is the one great contribution of Western civilization. That is liberty at its most fundamental. In my opinion, it is a far more important contribution than democracy which is unrelated to liberty.

That we find it so natural and normal to stick our noses into other individual's buisness shows that most don't trully adhere to personal liberty.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

Wrong - man you are on a streak.

We, in Western Civilization, do not let individuals do whatever they want. We have very strict laws that outlines our cultural morality. And if one tries to break from those moralities it is often right to condemn them, either through shame or by harsher methods. Do I have to give you numerous examples?

Angelfire's got a point about keeping to one's own business. One of the greatest social issues in my school and community is the division people cause when they start intervening in matters not relatted to them.

But Xris has a point too. No civilization, not even a groups of people, will ever let an individual do whatever. That's anarchy. There are rules governing us, be it the rules of a romantic relationship, rules of a family, rules of a community, or written laws.

Incest, drug abuse, what else can you add to this list? Western civilization is a very braod category since it's made of up of different peoples. Let's restrict it to the U.S. But then again, there is a difference between someone who is from a conservative state and someone from a liberal state.

Is it me, or as time passes, there is less and less things that people are becoming ashamed of? In the Victorian era, there were houses for women who were factory workers to stay in to protect themselves from the evils of industrial life. Now, women don't have that kind of societal protection. Is industry leading us to corrupt ourselves?

"How can we be just in a world without mercy and merciful in a world without justice?"

Very well said Attolia...

Of course I agree that people should in general mind their own business but it should not apply to all aspects of morality and people should be willing to butt in when necessary.

"Is it me, or as time passes, there is less and less things that people are becoming ashamed of? In the Victorian era, there were houses for women who were factory workers to stay in to protect themselves from the evils of industrial life. Now, women don't have that kind of societal protection. Is industry leading us to corrupt ourselves?"

No it is not you. You are correct people are less ashamed now than even 5 years ago. I think it is because most secularists have embraced DT's (or Angelfire's) philosophy & are far less willing to take moral stands on issues essential for a healthy society out of fear of being ridiculed for holding moral standards in the first place.

Its a dangerous direction and will lead to societal breakdown if this trend does not reverse.

Sorry, by letting the invidividual do what he wants, I mean, with himself or with consenting individuals. Western society is different in this regard.

Obviously we intervene, and comdemn, when a man, say, steals from another man. But when a man does things that deal with himself and consenting individuals, Western society tends to be far more open and lax than your average society.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

So it seems to me that we've reached the conclusion that societal intervention is ok to an extent. My question (referring back to my first post) is has societal shaming been decreasing? Is society becoming "more loose"?

I would say yes. As people gain more rights legally (and these rights are supported by society), the more freedom, the more we can do, the less we get blamed for. For example, abortion is legal. More liberal states support laws allowing abortion. Thus, a woman in a liberal state who aborts her "foetus" (or whatever is in her womb at that time) wil not be scorned compared with a woman in a more conservative state.

More rights, less shame. Right?

"How can we be just in a world without mercy and merciful in a world without justice?"

"Sorry, by letting the invidividual do what he wants, I mean, with himself or with consenting individuals. Western society is different in this regard."

But DT we don't let the individual or consenting adults do whatever they want. We don't let them use crack or heroin. We don't let two consenting adult siblings marry or have sex. Suicide is illegal. I mean the list goes on and on.

Today we are ashamed of things that were okay when I was a child. To me however, shame is not a virtue. What really causes shame is pier pressure. What will the nieghbor think? I don't find any virtue in that at all. While it controls the masses, given the right situation, it creates just as much ugliness. I wish we could all do what our heart tells us is right and not what our nieghbors might think.

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."