War - What The Hell Is It Good For

"You believe in it so much, why aren't you there fighting it? "

Why don't you think of some reasons - there are many possible reasons why I am not there right now - can you think of any? Furthermore, what kind of a person uses that kind of rationale? Michael Moore? lol You are in good company! Lastly, what does one have to do with the other? Are you saying that because I am not there right now I have no right to favor the war and can only oppose it? Your rationale is so childish I don't know why I am replying.

"After you watch the movie, then tell me why we went to Iraq - It wasn't weapons of mass destruction, the movie proves it, and it also proves that Bush knew it. "

Putin already destroyed your argument there - he defended US intelligence pre-war claims regarding WMD's. Putin opposed the war which makes him an unfriendly and credible witness. Furthermore, cyclosarin tipped missiles were found by Polish troops buried in the sand - they found it through agents tracking Al Qaeda that were attempting to purchase the cyclosarin. SO THEY WERE THERE.

"Why don't you tell me one of the good reasons we had to kill 100,000 Iraqis."

100,000 Iraqis? BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

You're crazier than Leftwood. I don't know why I am wasting my time with such a loon.

Now if you had asked to name one good reason for the war I surely could have - I could have named many more than one. But since you didn't ask that I will let your paranoia reign.

"What the hell do you know about the military (YOU'VE NEVER BEEN IT)."

WTF? You know nothing about me! How can you so arrogantly make that claim?

"But I guess if they declare the draft - you'll protest with us?"

Yes I would protest it! The only ones proposing it are leftwing democrats like Charlie Rangel. It is a horrible idea and would be a disaster.

I will try one last time - past that I can not simply waste time with someone so unbalanced: Can you or cant you think of any good reasons for the war?

"Hitler was a good man too - he was saving all the Christians from all those bad old jews."

I actually dont take your mockery as being so simple. You are the type that makes such rationalizations and I wouldnt be surpirsed if you eventually came to that conclusion.

"Uh, I wasn't there, thankfully you were, I've heard of the missiles just as I've heard of us purposefully illegally invading airspace to provoke enemies, don't be a puppet. You cannot know operational details, you will not even have the opportunity to know if things are not what they told you untill 25-70 years when declassification is allowed for documents actually kept instead of burned or shredded."

You are a puppet of your own fear. You are a puppet of anti-American hate groups. You are perfect for them because you are utterly lacking in any ability to reason. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge what Saddam himself acknowledged doing makes you worse than a puppet.

"Do you or do you not simply repeat "facts" and information as given by other sources other than your own first hand experience on these points in question. The same as everybody else. "

If I were to only speak of things gained by first hand acknowledge then I would be limited to speaking about almost nothing. Unless you lived a year in space you would be forbidden, by your own stupid argument, from saying that the earth travels around the sun. Do you know how to deduct - do you know how to reason? If Saddam acknowledges firing at US/UK jets patrolling the no-fly zone then there is no reason to doubt the US/UK when they claim Saddam fired at their planes patrolling the no-fly zone. If the Saudi's acknowledge that their own people were behind 9/11 including members of the bin Laden family then there is no reason to argue that the CIA were flying jets into the twin towers. That's basic simple logic. I am sorry you are so utterly devoid of it.

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Can you or cant you think of any good reasons for the war?

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Putin already destroyed your argument there

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100,000 Iraqis? BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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one good reason for the war I surely could have - I could have named many more than one

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"What the hell do you know about the military (YOU'VE NEVER BEEN IT)."

WTF? You know nothing about me! How can you so arrogantly make that claim?

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

Do you have the slightest clue of how much of what you say actually applys to you as well?

I'm the one simply pointing out that we can only even deduce off of what info we have available, your statement of your own experience should at least warrant the slightest notion that you may be wrong, your attitude does not.

From your logic of deduction all conspiracy theories are equally as justifiable. Based on insider info, documentation, quotes etc etc.

You speak of my being puppeted by fear, this is because you fear what I'm saying, I did not mention fearing the information, you did.

What puppets you, think about it, everything you say is just as repetative, 2nd 3rd 80th hand info just like me and everyone else, so what makes you end up rabidly defending a politicical and business tycoon, foreign policies that kill innocents, a government with a history of lies and deciet that are not simply washed away by attempts or even successes at good deeds?

I'm skeptical of conspriacy theories, I'm also skeptical of the government, you however have bought what they are selling, no questions asked.

"You are a puppet of your own fear. You are a puppet of anti-American hate groups. You are perfect for them because you are utterly lacking in any ability to reason. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge what Saddam himself acknowledged doing makes you worse than a puppet. "

I take it you speak foreign languages and Saddam calls you.

Out of all the known contradictions and purposeful and even unintentional and reactionary lies in the world, where do you get off thinking you know everything and that there is no room for questioning? I'm not trying to take down our government, if they are ingadged in illegal acts then it must be stopped, if people are guilty of heinous crimes then they must be dealt with, thats the law, and I'm hearing serious conflicting information from Insider dissenters who have even filed lawsuits which have been gagged by National Security, so yes I'm concerned.

To be unconcerned is irresponsible, to deny the reality of human nature, and the significance of spinning information is retarded.

Again, I'm not trying to take anyone down unless they deserve it, and remember, if I am wrong everything is fine, if you are wrong, then actually you aid terrorism.

It is not supposed to be treasonous to question authority for a reason, its our job, but it is, and as it should be, treasonous to stop it.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

"To protect our civilians. We should have declared war on Bin Ladin, and we should have continued to persue him. He wasn't in Iraq and he's not in Iran and he doesn't look anything like Saddam Hussein."

That's not what I asked. Such sophism! I asked if you are capable of thinking of any good reasons FOR THE IRAQ WAR???

Can you or cant you?

"Now there's someone I can really trust - You didn't watch the movie did you? "

I see - so Putin opposed the war openly and loudly - yet he acknowledged that US pre-war WMD intelligence was accurate and not contrived so you agree with him on the former but believe he is lying on the latter? How convenient for you. LMAO

An no I have no plan to watch some propaganda film at this time.

"So we shouldn't be crying about dead Iraqi's - their life is just as important as ours, God created them also. "

Have you cried? No we shouldn't celebrate any civilians death and should hate the fact that such horrific things happen in war. However we shouldn't manipulate the numbers to win an argument either.

To borrow a trick from your playbook - why aren't you in Iraq helping those poor civilians? What right do you have to represent their anguish since you are not willing to go there and sacrifice your time and protective care on their behalf?

"For the seventh time - You don't answer - then I guess I'm just left to assume ain't I?"

Yes you are an assumer. For the seventh time what is the relevance? Please do not think me so stupid that I will let the likes of you trap me now or in the future with sophomoric accusations! I don't have to be raped to know its wrong - maybe you do? Now let me make it clear to you: I refuse to answer ANY personal question without knowing first your motive for asking it and the relevance it has to this discussion.

http://www.theinsideout.us/Clark04_Leader_hi.mpeg

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

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That's not what I asked. Such sophism! I asked if you are capable of thinking of any good reasons FOR THE IRAQ WAR?

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Please do not think me so stupid that I will let the likes of you trap me now or in the future with sophomoric accusations! I don't have to be raped to know its wrong - maybe you do? Now let me make it clear to you: I refuse to answer ANY personal question without knowing first your motive for asking it and the relevance it has to this discussion.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

Leftwood -

You simply don't get it! You are the one pushing disinformation. You are the one spinning!!! You are the one caught in-between a state of fear and irrationality and grasping at any straw to support your own paranoias. You write that if you are wrong you have done no harm - I argue that you are doing harm - in the very least to yourself. But if you help convince others of a lie than you are clearly doing harm - especially if that lie weakens your own government and strengthens the likes of Al Qaeda. Yes you are only one person but you are a symptom of something insidious that is eating away at this nation and its very disturbing. Take the firing missiles at the US planes, for your conspiratorial fears to be correct then all aspects of American media and every media organization in Europe and Asia would have to have been in on the conspiracy of misleading Westerners as to exactly what Saddam said. The numbers of people involved in your conspiracies are so huge that it defies reason. Yet here you are unwilling to admit that Saddam fired missiles at our planes patrolling the no-fly zone, because for you the possibility that such a huge international conspiracy exists is tenable. Such thinking is very disturbing and can not be good for your own stress levels.

I take it you are not capable. Thought so!

"You can't answer my question - but you want an exact answer to yours. You're one way buddy."

That's correct. Your personal question is not appropriate to this board or our discussion. Unless you can explain how it is appropriate or relevant you will never get an answer to any such personal question.

[  Edited by Xris at   ]

"Yet here you are unwilling to admit that Saddam fired missiles at our planes patrolling the no-fly zone, because for you the possibility that such a huge international conspiracy exists is tenable."

I am unwilling to claim I know all the circumstances to the claims and facts as presented to us. Unlike yourself.

This mention of my conspiracies is innacurate in important areas, firstly any actual claims of conspiracy aren't even coming from me, I'm in no posistion to have such information, like yourself.

Secondly, the legitamacy of the reality of the missile situation is irrelevant to my point of our knowledge of the circumstances involved which affects the meaning and apropriate response.

And all I'm saying is what our mom's always said, TV will rot your brain, don't believe everything you hear, we need to own up to the fact that we don't know shit. When making world altering decisions as a nation, we must be properly informed, I simply argue that we are not.

If you believe that our government and our allies have never been rightfully convicted in scandals and conspiracies than I could understand your point of view. Though it would be wrong of course.

But if you do know and understand that that is true, as a look through past court cases confirm, than you would also know that you don't know about conspiracies untill people get caught or insiders speak up or people realize whats right in front of them.

I'm not pushing disinformation, I'm saying I don't even have information to push, and that neither do you. And when you push information that you cannot possibly yourself prove like we all do, we are all pushing dissinformation, gossip, "news", "facts", statistics.

But to understand this you must be able to conceive of your own hipocricies.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

Bush Sr didn't go to Baghdad. I suspect because he had seen the battlefield first hand and knew what he would be getting us into.

Bush Jr. however was unafraid to send us in harms way, because he had no clue unlike his father who had been there.

Xris, my point is, if you had military experience, or if the possibility of you going to Baghdad as a soldier existed, you might see it differently.

Its easy to be an armchair soldier watching Fox News to keep up on the score. Unless you can tell me different, than thats what I have to believe you are. Because that's what you're acting like. Any soldier would be concerned that his shipmates are expected to spend years in Iraq without relief. His shipmates are being asked to fight civilians in a foreign land that is no threat to our own. Not only are their living conditions unsuitable, but their own life is being threatened. I imagine they would like to come home. Nobody likes to kill people, except for maybe a select few - we would not consider them human, and we would label them war mongers, and there are a few.

Your gun ho attitude makes me curious. Is he a war monger or is he just an arm chair soldier?

I don't think that question is inappropriate, and I'll ask it, and if you don't answer it, I can only assume that the answer isn't a good one. That's your problem - not mine.

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
[  Edited by okcitykid at   ]

"If you believe that our government and our allies have never been rightfully convicted in scandals and conspiracies than I could understand your point of view. Though it would be wrong of course."

I don't believe that nor do I believe that everything they say must naturally be distrusted nor do I assume that scandals and conspiracies are their modus operandi. Whereas you clearly do which is evident in your inability to render any kind of decisive response or conclusion ON ANYTHING!

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"Bush Sr. didn't go to Baghdad. I suspect because he had seen the battlefield first hand and knew what he would be getting us into. "

Papa Bush (he is not a senior) I believe and believed at the time made a huge mistake. I think history bore out that it was a mistake. I think W. (he is not a junior) remedied that mistake, rightfully so.

"Bush Jr. however was unafraid to send us in harms way, because he had no clue unlike his father who had been there."

I have no idea what point you are trying to make - as wars go this has been incredibly successful in regards to lives lost - we have lost so little life - both our own and Iraqi - that any non-biased and honest critique of this war is forced to acknowledge this.

"Xris, my point is, if you had military experience, or if the possibility of you going to Baghdad as a soldier existed, you might see it differently."

Yes I have known all along that is your point which is utterly ridiculous because one you do not know if I have had any military experience, two you don't know whether I want to go or would not want to go to Iraq, three you are forced to assume, four you are making subjective emotional connections that are not determinant nor do they support your beliefs and 5 you are not supported by the vast majority of those serving.

Yes I am pro-war but there is no way for you to conclude that pro-war people must be either war mongers or arm chair soldiers. Are you telling me that that is the only two options that you can come up with? I knew from the beginning that you were making such a childish attack which is why I refuse to tell you about my previous military experience or lack of experience. The reason your question is inappropriate is because your motive is inappropriate and my answer is simply not relevant to this discussion.

For example - you served in the military - I know because you have brought it up as if it somehow strengthens your anti-war attacks but in truth your anti-war attacks are not shared by a majority of the military, especially those serving in Iraq today. So by bringing it up you have not accomplished what you wanted to do which is to strengthen your argument. Instead of relying upon logical arguments you are trying to make a claim that since you were in the military others that were not have no right to discredit your views (even though most in the military disagree with those views). That's like saying that only history majors have a right to discuss history or only political scientists have a right to discuss politics. Its a laughable argument and not appropriate to a BBS where ones ideas and ones ability to articulate their ideas logically are the reason we are here debating.

My life experiences should help me better articulate my posts but there is no guarantee that it will. It is obvious to me that your military experience has not helped you regarding the war in Iraq - especially since most soldiers disagree with you. Its as if you said global warming was a fact because you had been to the south pole and that all discussion should end there. Well of course scientists that had not been to the south pole but had done numerous research on the subject would laugh at such a conclusion.

What I am trying to get you to do is step back from your emotions and examine if there are explanations, that maybe you haven't yet thought about, that reveal good reasons for the war. I am also trying to keep you from using emotional arguments that are always subjective in hopes that the debate will remain logical and reasoned.

So far I have not been successful...

Most soldiers are in Iraq, and you don't know what they believe. I believe I know a little more about what they believe then you, because I know what it means and I know what it is.

Xris - you either have a very good filter that filters all bad stuff out and only hears good, only this could make you believe that the Iraq war is going good. or Good stuff is bad and bad stuff is good.

How many people would have died had we not gone to war in Iraq? Have you added that up.

Anyways - me and a few other vets are going to try to end this thing.

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Over the course of the next few months, in part because of the feedback our membership gave during our membership survey, Veterans for Common Sense will move forward with a platform for winning the peace and ending the war in Iraq.



We believe that the starting point of discussion of Iraq should be recognition of two key ultimate goals: a safe, secure and sovereign Iraq; and the safe return of U.S. troops home where they belong.



The primary question we face today is how to reach that Iraq, threading a narrow line between several risks: an increasingly violent war between U.S. forces and Iraqi insurgents; civil war in Iraq, with or without the presence of U.S. troops; or an Iraq dominated by a (U.S. backed or not) dictator who would simply be a replacement for Saddam Hussein.



We believe there are four key goals which must be achieved to reach the goal of a safe, secure and sovereign Iraq:



- The protection of civilians and human rights in Iraq

- Growing Iraq's institutional capacity for the rule of law, security, and corruption prevention

- Iraqi-led reconstruction and meaningful job creation

- Increased political inclusion and reconciliation



Progress toward each of these goals facilitates Iraq's capacity for self-rule, reduces violence, and facilitates the reduction of U.S. forces in the region. A failure to make progress in these areas, however, will result in the opposite: longer U.S. troop deployment and increased violence, and increased risk of massive civil war in Iraq.



Please help end us bring an end to the war in Iraq.



In the coming months, Veterans for Common Sense will advance our platform for ending the war by:



- The launch of Winning the Peace, a joint program with the Education for Peace in Iraq Center

- Producing detailed white papers and editorials advancing these goals

- Action alerts and campaigns focused on the President and Congress to push them to end the war in Iraq

- Lobbying Congress to tie these goals to spending bills

- Promotion of spokespersons in the mass media; including retired senior military officers and diplomats, to advance the cause of ending the war in Iraq

- Producing advertising targeting Capitol Hill

- Drafting a series of editorials and letters to the editor, for our members and spokespersons, calling for progress toward ending the war.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

"Most soldiers are in Iraq, and you don't know what they believe. I believe I know a little more about what they believe then you, because I know what it means and I know what it is. "

Do you even know how many men and women are serving in the armed forces and how many are in Iraq?

Actually I do know what the numerous polls showed that they think - apparently far better than you do - by refusing to acknowledge the fact that the men and women serving overwhelmingly voted for Bush brings into great doubt whether you served at all.

"How many people would have died had we not gone to war in Iraq? Have you added that up. "

That's the whole point Gomer Pile - many believe that with a democracy in Iraq and a democracy in Afghanistan the region will be intrinsically changed and this will force other nations to liberalize. Thus, millions more will live by bringing an end to islamo-fascism, including Americans.

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Actually I do know what the numerous polls showed that they think

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PARIS, Ill. - It was a day for high school bands and red, white and blue balloons, for cheers and tears and a sea of jubilant family and friends in every imaginable form of patriotic attire.

"The 1544th" finally had come home.

For 14 months while stationed in Iraq, the battered Illinois National Guard 1544th Transportation Company had endured more than 100 mortar attacks and had driven more than 580,000 hostile miles transporting supplies and ammunition.

During that time, the unit of about 160 members had suffered more deaths and injuries than any other National Guard company in the nation, military officials said.

Five soldiers - Sgt. Ivory L. Phillips, Sgt. Jeremy L. Ridlen, Sgt. Shawna Morrison, Spc. Charles Lam and Spc. Jessica L. Cawvey - did not return, killed either by mortar attacks or roadside bombs. They accounted for half of all Illinois Army National Guard fatalities in Iraq.

About 70 others were injured; about 20 of those were hurt seriously enough to be sent home.

But this was not the day to dwell on that. The citizen-soldiers of this tightknit community were back, and some 5,000 people lined the streets Tuesday to greet them.

"We've prayed hard for this day," said Annette Brown, who stood in the middle of Main Street straining to get a glimpse of her arriving fiance, Willridge Simms.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."