'reality' - Page 3

U know i m quite surprised, I thought this was one topic where religion wouldn't come in.

U know, I'v learned that we see things in a 'two dimensional' way, like looking at three dimensional drawings in a two dimensional paper.
It's like we look at the world behind a 'viel'. We don't really 'see' things, we dont really see their beauty. Even 'nothingness', that empty space in your room, is beautifull.
I've learned to look at things outside this viel. I've learned to see things with my 'being', with my soul, withought my sense of 'I', withought any judement, like coming out of the constraints of my mind and seeing a tiny bit of reality in the world.(I hope this makes sense!)

Anyway, regarding the something from nothing.
Many people beleive that with the big bang, 'space' was also created, as before the big bang, there was nothing. But what is space. Space is nothing. Look at the 'space' around your room, can that be created? Imajine if there wasn't any matter in the universe, just that space. That is inconcievable.
Until there is sound, silence doesn't come into existance. In the same way, when matter came into being, when 'distance' was created, then space could be related to.
So infact, 'nothing' i.e, space existed from the start.

there are many theories on space actually being filled with something that we have no idea of what it is, like dark matter. And its definitely filled with radiation and solar winds. In your room is air and such.

But at the end I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at, I did actually understand the first part I believe.

There are only two real sources on the possible answers to the questions of reality, science and religion, and so of course religion is going to come into it, its where the debate comes from without us all being master physicists.

Space being filled with something is a different thing. In that way, space is also filled with humans, plants etc. But what *is* space. If there was no matter, if there was no radiation etc. Even that mysterious 'dark matter', must be matter afterall! It must be *in* space, not space itself.

Let me explain the last part again. Imagine a world in which there is no sound, only silence. But would you know what silence was if there wasn't any sound? When there is sound, then you know what silence is, then silence comes into exisatnce, though it wasn't created. In the same way, space wasn't created. Imagine ur a point of conciousness floating in empty space, withought matter. Would you know that there is such a thing as space? I mean, there would be no distances etc. Only when matter will come into being, when distance will come into being, then you will realize the existance of space, though it was never created.

Yes, religion must play a part, but the problem with that is that everyone then becomes closed minded and refuses to consider the others point of view. If ur going to talk about religion, both sides should take a balanced apprach.

I agree with how the religious answers tend to be

As for the space issue, this is what leaves us empty handed on answers and understanding, because with both god and big bang theories there is the creation of mass and what not, but from what and where, what was going on before all that, where did god come from, and what is nothing and how do you get everything into or out of it.

whoever did the 0+0=1 thing, I hope you weren't serious, unless you were talking binary code. Even if it is true, which it matches what we are faced with, it still doesn't explain how or why, or in fact what anything really is, and thats what we are asking.

The chicken and the egg is a complex no solution that I know of riddle, problem, whatever. And it is at the basis of this conversation, so how does that work?

Shit man, just lost my post!

Literally speaking, for me, the chicken and egg thing is not a problem. Chickens probably descended from some other creatures, so the whole question becomes irrelevant.
Even if you do not take it literally, evloution is still probably the answer, u know, with the particles combining after the big bang, to gradually form more complex organisims.

Regarding what was before the big bang, we'r trying to answer it according to our knowledge of this world. For all we know, this universe could be an illusion, and reality may be completely opposite to the reality of this universe. Lets just say, that before the big bang, some other dimension, like a spiritual world or sumtin existed or exists. Asking what happened in the universe before the big bang is like asking what happened in computers before they were invented!
This leads to the question that why did the big bang take place at 'that particular moment'. Why not earlier or before. Well, before the big bang, time didn't exist. 'that particular moment' was all that existed.

Many people say that God has existed from the 'start'. This line is wrong, as there is no such thing as a 'start'. Again, we'r trying to answer this through our notion of time, which didn't exist then, and niether does it exist today. For us, time exists because we have something to relate to, like matter, and becuase of our minds, which can compare two events, thus making it seem that there is a past and a future.
So it's not neccessary that everything should have a beggining. Everything having a beggining.....*thats* outside the ordinary. So even the term the God is 'eternal' is wrong, as that implies influnce of time.

Hmmm, yes how can something come out of nothing? Imagine that an apple appears, not by growing, but out of space!
The scientific defination of energies is that it can niether be created nor destroyed, so perhaps they hepled in causing the big bang, as space, that black thing up in the sky, existed from the start(again, there IS no start!).
So if energies existed, then there isn't really a question of 'something from nothing', as those energies could be used to create matter, used perhaps-by God.

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What came first everything or nothing?

Matter came first. Nothing, never 'came', as It has been pointed out atlest a dozen times, it was never created.

U know, sometimes I get these really wierd feelings, that everything is not real, including me, it's all an illusion, an its pretty scary and disturbing sometimes. Any one of u get some feelings like this?

What is real? Just the perceptions and impressions you get.

"Matter came first. Nothing, never 'came', as It has been pointed out atlest a dozen times, it was never created."

Well if matter "came" at all then there was nothing before it, when did it come, you say it was never made, just like the sense of your statement was never made.

I know people have remarked on the question before, doesn't mean it was adequately answered.

Well, over here the concept is beyond total human comprehension. We can't understand eternity completely, we can only have a vague idea of it.
Again, it is not neccessary that everything should have a beggining, as time didn't exist back then.

How can 'nothing' be created, if there is no such thing as nothing. What ur actually asking is, how when did everything 'before' the universe start. Again, it couldn't have 'started', and God knows what the hell happend outside or before this universe!

Your argument is just as implosable and unanswerable, you realize that right, as well as you are making some hefty claims about what was, is, and is not. Such as...

"How can 'nothing' be created, if there is no such thing as nothing." (How do you know such a thing?)

"Again, it is not neccessary that everything should have a beggining, as time didn't exist back then."

meaning time began at some point too, from what you are saying, effectively contradicting yourself. I am not claiming to be able to fathom the concepts of the infinites, thats why I bother to still think about it at all.

Sorry to interrupt the current "flow" of this thread but I read an interesting story about perceptions and reality the other day... and it fits in this thread.

There is a documented case where movie makers introduced animated ideas to indigenous tribespeople in Africa, hoping to find out what the base human reactions are to certain animated images...

They went into the community with generators, movie projectors and a screen and put various animated images and segments on the screen to see how the tribespeople would react and what did they see?...

NOTHING! They saw a white screen, no images.

Because the whole concept of a movie or moving images outside of real life didn't exist as part of their reality, they couldn't see it.

What does that tell you about how programmed we are and how everything is an illusion?

I've seen cats chase images on tv, so I don't know how much stock I can put in that, interesting thought to be sure though.

Of course cats can see the images... because house cats at least have been exposed to the images throughout their existence. The tribespeople had never been exposed before, therefore they couldn't see them. If they had been exposed repeatedly over an extended period of time (who knows how long it would take) they too would be able to see them becase it would become a part of their reality.