American warmongers

I think all of you are much too gracious. I've lived in America for 50 years and I've never seen anything like the political climate we have now. Most messages on the internet are an outpouring of hate and intolerance. Dare to suggest the war was wrong and you're liable to be burned at the stake like someone who suggests the earth is not the center of the universe in the Dark Ages. The messages on this website are quite refreshing. It's nice to find someplace where people express their views without getting nasty. Yes Americans are gunslingers. I can think of more descriptive terms but I don't want to sink to that level.

"The old guy is still around."

I share your sentiment, Survivor. What pisses me off the most is censorship. People can agree or disagree with Bush, but how can you justify blocking open debates and the flow information -- especially in the US with so much pride in freedom of speech.

I use to frequent a car forum on the internet. One day I went there and saw a sticky thread posted by the admins laying the ground rules for the many posts about the war that were popping up. I was expecting a "no war posts" thread, since that has nothing to do with cars and you shouldn't be making irrelevant posts. Instead, it pretty much said: all pro-war posts are OK, all anti-war posts are banned. The justification for this? We have to support our troops. Great! Rather than learning the pros and cons of the war and deciding for yourself whether or not it's a good idea, let's boost troop morale by falsely representing this as non-debatable issue. Let's lie and pretend *everyone* thinks the war is a good idea so the troops can slaughter some Iraqis without worrying about petty details, like is it liberation or murder, since that's already been decided by our falsely elected leader.

Which forum was that?

"My mind is tearing me apart, then it constructively puts me back together again."

twinturbo.net

My favorite 300zx forum

They actually said that?


bah!

"My mind is tearing me apart, then it constructively puts me back together again."

Yep, looks like they took it down already (it was in the general forum), prolly when they changed servers. I made some posts on there, but they all got deleted

That "support our troops" stuff was really monotonous. It's like we're suddenly back in the 1950's. God, motherhood, and the flag is back in style. That's okay but dissenting views should not be banned. During the war I posted some messages on Yahoo. I remember saying that spring is a beautiful time of year. Surely we can find better things to do than kill people. Some of the messages I saw were pretty disturbing.

"The old guy is still around."

Okay, One thing I've noticed alot is the word "Freedom" being thrown around. First off We don't know what Freedom is, Because we have had it for so long yet we still complain about wanting more. And people Do read Decius posts all the time He is a very logical levelheaded thinking Guy. don't forget smart... Lol yeah later

"I'm afraid of the dark,and suspicious of the light"

hey i have changed alot sence i was last here, ok. well i dont really like government anymore, but i still think that this country is the most free, or free'est or whatever. anyway i dont think we should have gone to war in the first place we should have just left it alone. maybe try to kill him but not a war, you know to many people have died. anyway thats what i think i dont have all the answers but i do know that bush is not good for us. he uses the wrong words and i cant wait till i get to vote for the first time this year. oo ya things will change when im around , speek easy, later guys.

"Emotions are for the weak minded, so cry me a river build a bridge and get over it."

The guy had men on the government payroll who's job it was to rape women in front of there husbands and fathers to punish the men. Don't the mass graves bother anyone? I for one don't care if the only weapon Saddam had was a rusty Derringer. He had to get smashed. Somebody that Saddistic (intentionally mispelled) on such a massive scale has gotta go. I deplore violence but I am not a passivist in the sense of a Ghandi. If I'm walking down the street and see a guy beating the crap out of his wife or child or something I feel honor bound to step in. And I see the same principle with the war against Saddam. And I think it was pretty clear that our problem was with Saddam and his buddies, not Iraq. True, innocents died but if you wanna make an omelet... Innocents died before the war, during the war, and after the war. They always have and always will. Tyrants must be crushed. I know these are not the reasons the administrations gave for the war, but regardless it is the reasons by which I justify and all in all aren't you really the only one you owe justification to? And I would back such an action against all tyrants on Saddam's level who could not otherwise be dealt with. WW III; maybe? I'll die to stop someone like Saddam commiting so many atrocities. I couldn't live with myself if I could've done something to stop it but didn't. Just my thoughts though, no more valid or invalid than anyone elses. Idealistically war is wrong, but for lack of a better solution... If we wanna stop war we gotta come up with a better way of handling such situations as what we had with Saddam. Nobody wants to have their leg amputated but for lack of a better solution.

BTW Metaphors RULE! don't they

P.S Fish gotta' swim, Birds gotta' fly, and politician gotta' lie,
I think the easiest way to get a clear picture is to take
everything the politicians say out of the equation

"A wise man knows enough to know he knows nothing"

I'm a cowboy. Ilike it! I like the President! Don't get on the wrong side of a cruise missile GIRLIE BOY Frenchie! Your prime minister sucks the big one!
Eldred

[  Edited by jakereaney at   ]

Now that the war is over (for a while, hey I didn't really find the thread till now.) it is easier to decide on whether the war was worth it or not. I would be 100% for the war. No because I enjoy seeing people sacrafice their lives for the country. I honor those types of people dearly. Yet, Saddam had to be stopped. Ok so maybe their were weapons, maybe their weren't, maybe some stories were right, some could of been wrong, I am not going to say that my countries gov. didn't lie. I am glad they did, and if I were them I would of done the same thing just as any of you would or should. People in the states and all over the world don't understand that you can't just leave a country alone and think it will work out.

Do you think that if we left a mentally insane person with goals of genocide and threats against certain people in his country some his own nationallity alone that he would just calm down? Do you think that this insane man with dangerous ideas and building dangerous weapons that could match some of ours should of been left alone? Do you think maybe even appeasment would solve this problem?
If you answered yes to anyone of these questions then you have done the stupidest thing that any man of America, India, China, Britian, ANY SINGLE COUNTRY OUT THERE should ever do. You go into your class and you notice your grade sucks, you are getting a D and you think the class is stupid, so you say to the teacher, "Why do I have to take history? When will I ever use it?" and your teacher says, "Well, because history repeats itself."
1930's and 1940's there was a man named Adolf Hitler that was in the same situation. He was insane, (well not that insane, he had his ups and downs.) and he also seemed to commit genocide. Now, how come everyone thinks we should kick Hitlers ass because of just that reason, YET Saddam does the same thing and we don't wanna touch him. If anyone remembers from history the League of Nations they should know exactly where I will go with this. If you don't know what the League of Nations is, it was similar to the U.N. after WW1 a group of nations(Including Britian and France) decided to ban together and creat an organization that would ensure peace in the Europe. When Hitler rose to power they thought just like the U.N. "Oh, don't worry, he only wants a little bit, sure he is building an army, but we are in no shape to fight, so lets just let him have what he wants and see if that settles him." So they gave him Czech. and Austria, you know that is all he said he wanted, so why not. Then he decides to start breaking some ruler, move troops around that first off, he isn't allowed to have. (which can't happen to Saddam because hey, we let him do what he wants) Italy takes Ethiopia, League of Nations doesn't act. Germany moves his troops to his borders, nope, no reaction yet. Oh, but then they attack Poland and now we start to think about fighting.

Now is this what we want to happen in Iraq? Do you want to sit around and let this guy do what he wants? Ok, so people will die, do you know that we went to Iraq, to Afgahn., and back to Iraq, and probably still lost fewer men then we lost at Pearl Harbor all together. People die in wars. I don't like how they have to die either, I'd rather let people live, yes. But most casualties were because of friendly fire or because someone lost control of the helicopter. You can't say that you want to let a mad man loose just to save some men from death when this guy will just continue killing more people.

I don't know why our gov. can't finish off a war. Maybe because they just want to hurry everything up. We already set up a gov. in Afgahnistan so we are rebuilding and maybe we will make a change to the world. Yet, we are rebuilding, the main reason we went there so we are doing good.

You say why can't Iraq have nukes if we are allowed to have them. Ok, I can see that, but you have to remember that we didn't go into the country just because we thought they had nukes. The whole nuke idea was for 2 reasons.
1. We wanted to disarm them before they got nukes so that when we did attack they wouldn't attack us with them.
2. We needed a reason. Before in the Dark ages and such you didn't argue a war. You were proud to go to war. You fought right by your king. You did what he said. Now a days everyone argues doing anything because it is unethical. Nothing is unethical. If the US government wants to go to war it is for a pretty damn good reason, either that or it is just Bush trying to hide from the economy. I think we should make modern war like the time of kings and knights. If Bush wants to go to war, fine go ahead. But if I don't see your butt up on the front lines with Chuck from Kansas I am not going to honor you like I honor Chuck. (Ok, so my fav. President didn't fight in his war. BUT HE HAD POLIO! COMON!) Of course the Vice-President doesn't have to fight, we need someone to hold the fort. Also I don't think Cheney will make it.

OK Decius, you want someone to notice you. I will. Imperialism, gee last time I heard that, I had a map quiz on who owned what in Africa. I would think that our war wasn't for defensive purpose. Ok so maybe we need more facts to fight the war. Maybe we should of had our tank commanders stop and find directions to the nearest Saddam look alike.(We never ask) WW3 is just insane. I doubt we want to own the whole world. Plus we couldn't we would need British help, only because we don't want France. Sorry, but I'm American and the freedom fries jokes were just too old. If we wanted to conquer the world, we could have. Ok so maybe we might not be completly successful, but we would get further then anyone else. Remember, we are not out to dominate the world. We had Cuba, we gave it away, we had the Philipinese,(sorry spelling sucks) we gave that away. We are always willing to give everyone their rights. That is why we fight, we fight for others rights. Now sleepy asked why we don't save the people in Libiya. There is only probably one reason we don't. BECAUSE IS WE DIDN'T YOU'D ALL YELL AT US LIKE YOU DID WITH IRAQ! We want to do this but we can't do anything without someone yelling at us for it. If people would see the fact that we are doing good and would stop saying oh we are just warmongers we would be more willing to go into other countries and fight for people.

I still have more ideas on the whole issue so if anyone wants to continue with the great debate just argue to me. I will be more then happy to give my side to it. I tried to get everyones questions.

P.S. I didn't vote for Bush.

"If the opposite of Pro is Con, then is the opposite of Progress, Congress?"

Dugbug:

It is apparent to me that you do not have all the facts regarding this war, and if you do you are judging them improperly.

"Yet, Saddam had to be stopped. Ok so maybe their were weapons, maybe their weren't, maybe some stories were right, some could of been wrong, I am not going to say that my countries gov. didn't lie. I am glad they did, and if I were them I would of done the same thing just as any of you would or should." - Okay, so your government should not tell you the truth behind the reason your son goes to war and dies. They should let him die for reasons that have nothing to do with why he sacrificed his life. Okay? Yeah, okay.

"Do you think that if we left a mentally insane person with goals of genocide and threats against certain people in his country some his own nationallity alone that he would just calm down?" - Firstly, you know nothing of Saddam. You don't know he is mentally insane, and you don't know what he does to his people. What you hear on the news is not factual. Secondly, there are 40 other dictators on the planet that do worse things than Saddam. Why isn't the US playing god with them? Well, there isn't any oil in those countries. Open your eyes... you're not there to help the Iraqis.

Adolf Hitler was not put into power by the US. Adolf Hitler was in the process of conquering the world. Do you think USA got into WW2 to free the jews? Get real. Jews fleeing German occupied states were denied immigration to USA during the war. Secondly, Adolf Hitler was not put into power by the US. The US put Saddam in power, or did you not know that?

"1. We wanted to disarm them before they got nukes so that when we did attack they wouldn't attack us with them." - OOOHHH! So we are legitimate in going around making sure that NO ONE has nukes? So just in case they "might" get nukes, we should bomb the shit out of their country and make sure? OH MAN! CANADA MIGHT GET NUKES! BOMB THE CANUCK BASTARDS!

....

I'm going to stop. I just realized that your post is quite apparently not your opinion but a post made to declare an opinion. You contradict yourself numerous times in it.

Regardless, you are open minded enough to realize that your government did lie to you, you went to war for reasons that had nothing to do with freeing Iraqis, and Oil was the only reason the war was fought. If you still think we should have gone to war, then that is your opinion, illogical and selfish as that might seem.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

I don't remember agreeing with the governments reasons for going to war. I said I agreed with going to war. Just because my government wants oil doesn't mean I wanted war to get oil too. I agree because it took Saddam out of power. Now are you going to tell me that Saddam isn't crazy. When I say crazy I don't mean insane, white jacket, what I mean is that he has radical ideas that threaten the lives of innocent people. And yes, though maybe my government has lied to me, I am not going to say all of it was a lie. I do believe people, innocent people were being killed. They had footage of it, so I believe that. THAT is why I wanted the war. I do want to stop the 40 other evil dictators. My government doesn't want to. I do. But if my government attacked Iraq, I am glad. Though I do disagree with the whole oil idea.

"Do you think USA got into WW2 to free the jews?"
Please tell me you know the difference between the league of nations and USA. I said the League of Nations right?

Here is a situation. You and me live on the same block. I live about 5 houses down from you. Now you can kinda see my front yard from your house. Now somedays, like once, twice a week you look outside and you see me killing any animal you can find. Some days I kill it by lighting it on fire and such, too see what happens. Now are you saying that you'd would be willing to give me a gun? You don't know what I will do with it, but in past experience I have used other methods to harm stuff. That is like Iraq. If Iraq was filled with people that thougth logically and weren't killing everyone then hey, they can have anything they want. But if their government is going to be filled with those types of people, then I support going in there and wipping them out.

Also, I am not saying that our government should not tell us what is going on. It is that when our government does tell us what is going on, everyone freaks out. People don't understand how the world works as well as other people do. People don't think with logic. We have people in our government that can figure out already which countries are threats and which aren't based on their development. Yet, people don't understand that so we need solid arguements to go to war.

So what if we put Saddam in power, if this is true. Germans put Lennin in power, look where that got them. It doesn't matter who did what. So we screwed up, we are willing to take back the mistake. Ok so maybe we do it for the wrong reasons. Look at who our President is. Nothing against Bush, but he probably is using the war as a scape goat for the fact that he screwed up the economy. Trust me, when elections come around and if the people find another Clinton, this whole situation will be solved and nothing left to worry about.

Now do you people want us to go and invade the 40 other countries? seriously answer the question?

"If the opposite of Pro is Con, then is the opposite of Progress, Congress?"

Dug:

1. The league of nations was the old equivalent to the current U.N. If you agree with what the LON was doing, then you should also side with the U.N. in this regard, and the U.N. opposed the war. Do you know this fact?

2. "I don't remember agreeing with the governments reasons for going to war. I said I agreed with going to war." - That makes no sense. You agree to go to war for reasons. Anything you tell me about Sadam and his evil ways is irrelevent, because neither you or I have the facts.

3. Regarding your theoretical situation, if I GAVE you the ability to kill animals in your yard, I would definitely not take it up as my responsibility to right you, because I have obviously demonstrated my innability to make proper judgements. I would address my concerns and SINCEREST APPOLOGIES to the neighborhood watch (U.N.) and let them decide what the best course of action is.

4. "Also, I am not saying that our government should not tell us what is going on. It is that when our government does tell us what is going on, everyone freaks out. People don't understand how the world works as well as other people do. People don't think with logic. We have people in our government that can figure out already which countries are threats and which aren't based on their development. Yet, people don't understand that so we need solid arguements to go to war. " - So you ARE saying the government should not tell us what is going on.

5. The Germans didn't put Lennin in power. The Russian Revolution put Lennin in power. And Lennin wasn't at war with the Germans, Stalin was.

6. Do I want the US to invade the other 40 countries? No, no I don't. I don't because I think the US government is really good at convincing people like you that enemy number one is whomever they want to point their finger at to satisfy whatever economical and political agenda they want.

Dug, USA is run by one thing and one thing only: Corporation. And the one thing common to every corporation on the planet is the lust for profit. Bush's buddies are corporates, he is a corporate, the entire high class of people that run the country are ALL corporate. Hence, they desire profit.

Think of this: If the lower and middle class people (the majority of the US) were considered sheep and the corporates the shephards, it makes sense how the world is turning out. They make you believe what you want to believe so you will vote and support certain things that are only good for them.

There is no such thing as democracy. Watch "Bulworth". You NEED money to win an election. No one wins in this world without lots of money. Inf act, whoever has MORE money is more likely to win. That is the way elections work. ANd money is sourced from corporate sponsorship. What do you think those corporations want in return for political monetary support?

Profit.

Oil.

A boost in the economy.

War boosts the economy.

I understand your reasons for wanting to go to war. I really do, and they are genuinely pious reasons. But the problem is that they are ficticious reasons. They are not real. They are the exact reasons corporate America wants you to believe we went to war, whereas it wasn't necessary, and it was only done for profit.

If we knew factually that saddam was a saddist, and that we intended to go over there and give the Iraqi people their own independant state, I'd be all for the war! But this isn't what's happening. THe oil fields were secured immediately during the occupation and the hospitals were left to be ransacked by vandals. Is Iraq free? No, it is occupied by US military who are deciding RIGHT now how to distribute the oil reserves. Corporate america is gleaming. They are staking out the oil, they are planning to install mini-malls in iraq and employ the people in those mini malls and hope they spend all their money in the mini malls so that they can make consumer slaves out of the country.

It's a good day to be Walmart!

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."