My mom told me that the family is the most important thing one can ever have. But how can I tell when she is the one stopping me from having one? - julie mae allego
Captain Cynic Guides
Administrative Contact
Talk Talk
Philosophy Forum
Religion Forum
Psychology Forum
Politics & Current Events Forum
Science & Technology Forum
Health & Wellness Forum
Sexuality & Intimacy Forum
Product Reviews
Stories & Poetry Forum
Art Forum
Movie/TV Reviews
Jokes & Games
Photos, Videos & Music Forum

Is there anything you shouldn't educate children? - Page 2

User Thread
 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that zachf is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I would like to clarify one thing, In my mind when i think of child i think of someone 6 and under. I think children when they hit around 7-8 become fully independent thinkers that have full control of their action (not that they should be held responsible for them yet).

From there I would agree with you.

And if you arn't shoving it down their throats (I was a little confused cause it was said earlier that you guys were not and your later posts confused me) then i have no objections to letting them have control over these subjects. My concerns lies with showing children material before there body is ready to except it.

The question that is yet to be answered is if we were to give them material at such a young age how can we insure that the development of one child will not be given to another child in a unwanted fashion.

| Permalink
"Whether we wake or we sleep, Whether we carol or weep, The Sun with his Planets in chime, Marketh the going of Time. -Edward Fitzgerald"
 44yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Such primitive instincts are what you want to stop.


Absolutely not.

You don't want them to control you, yes, but not stop them, dear god no, that has been the philosophic dogma that has destroyed great portions of our potential as creative and enlightened beings.

Such frames of mind have lead to so much pain, misery, fear, and violence it is not even funny.

This is in part because the main method such natural instincts are suppressed is by calling them evil and detrimental.

This is why so many people feel bad, react negatively, about having naturally occuring instincts which creates a cycle of negative reactions that can encompass an entire lifetime.

And a reason you shouldn't want to stop thas as opposed to educating about and controlling them is to utilize them.

These are among our most natural faculties available to navigate this world through our senses. Some senses which are being suppressed by fear driven indocrinational systems as are being discussed here.

It is one of the reasons why we have become so ignorant and closed off to such basic things as harmony with nature and the use of our own mental and spiritual faculties.

We have demonized and deprived ourselves of things so important that we have lost most knowledge of them.

Especially at points of our development when imagination and attunement to faculties we barely understand are at their strongest and most absorbant.

Which is the point that means I will likely argue to the death against your imposition of age restrictions to such information.

quote:
The question that is yet to be answered is if we were to give them material at such a young age how can we insure that the development of one child will not be given to another child in a unwanted fashion.


Unwanted by whom?

This is the type of thinking that continues to blind you to your continual clinging to that which you yourself don't even like.

Detrimental belief systems that corrupt our ability to be free thinkers and meet our true potentials.

There is a point where you have to say tough shit, it may be unwanted to know that life can suck and certain things will hurt you and that you don't always get what you want, but guess what, knowing about them gives you a chance to cope with them.

If you had your head less clouded by innapropriate fears you would see that there really isn't an "unwanted fashion" except in the minds of those who are slaves to detrimental belief systems that are attempting to exert total control over the minds of everyone.

Some form of abuse, sure, but natural exposure, curious inquisition, or socialising, I would hardly consider that to be appropriately deemed unwanted.

And you seem to fear more exposure to reality, under certain circumstances, and this somehow provides you a means to justify controlling others both in terms of exposing and being exposed, while I just can't aggree with that less and by far fear more the controlling of our minds, information, and behavior outside of doing intentional harm of course.

Especially at these key developmental stages.

| Permalink
"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that zachf is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I know in the world of logical thought telling kids all they want to know and making them hard at a young age is a great idea. But it doesn't work children are very fragile creatures and must be dealt with care superior to that of any other age groups.

The first 6 years of a child's life decide what that person (for the most part) will act like for the rest of their life. To throw a child into a world that expects them to act as adults and think like one from such a young age. Will not accomplish anything but selfishness. It will (not my opinion but fact) make them think in a survivalistic manner for the rest of their lifes.

I understand your want to educate but i have talked to many people who work very closely, formerly have and reviewed my interaction with children. All of which have led me to what i know. Parents who adopt your attitude, children are not any better off.

To allow your child access to images and thoughts that are not natural to their maturity level damages their growth and without consoling they are never able to learn those stages of development again.

I will come to a medium with you that i have already stated i believe that we over censor. I think children of not such a young age can be exposed to sexual images.

Violence is not the same though it is not a natural reaction to act violently to a situation this attitude has been taught to are children through T.V., movies, adults.

Children must be educated in how a utopia feels so they know why its worth fighting for. Kindness that people act with is a direct result of the love and sheltering from scary things when they were younger.

You can find exceptions to this but for the majority of the population this is the case.

The key to it is breaking this relationship much younger then we do now. I agree with with your wants I do not agree with you methods. Intention is not always shown with the correct action.

| Permalink
"Whether we wake or we sleep, Whether we carol or weep, The Sun with his Planets in chime, Marketh the going of Time. -Edward Fitzgerald"
 44yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
I know in the world of logical thought telling kids all they want to know and making them hard at a young age is a great idea.


I'm not talking about hardenning kids, I'm talking about not hamstringing them by over "protecting" them by censoring them from that which is natural.

quote:
But it doesn't work children are very fragile creatures and must be dealt with care superior to that of any other age groups.


There are plenty of ways that they are fragile, but they are at the stage of the greatest learning capacity and resiliance to all manner of harm.

But again, I'm not talking about harm, I'm talking about exposure to neutral sensory stimulus that is so often considered harmful and indeed made to be harmful due to absurd beliefs and forced context.

quote:
To throw a child into a world that expects them to act as adults and think like one from such a young age. Will not accomplish anything but selfishness.


What? Where do you keep getting these pre concieved notions that are so off from what I'm talking about?

The point is to have them act like children and generally speaking to help them stay that way and even help so many lost adults return to many aspects of child like states.

I'm not talking about throwing them into anything, just not censoring harmless information that has been twisted to been seen as harmful.

The purpose of the non censorship is to keep assinine fear based beliefs to be forcebly formed in them by their care takers treating neutral natural information as bad or dangerous.

quote:
I understand your want to educate but [quote]

That's the first thing I have a problem with this paragraph.

[quote]i have talked to many people who work very closely, formerly have and reviewed my interaction with children. All of which have led me to what i know


Oh, I have no doubt. You parrot their words so well, with all the fear and contradiction they have instilled in you all perfectly visible.

Would you say they are making revolutionary leaps toward betterring society, or would you perhaps stop, really stop, and really think, that maybe, just maybe, they are perhaps helping to make the world into the cesspit it has become by continuing to create the little sheeple that some of us see all around us?

quote:
images and thoughts that are not natural to their maturity level


What is natural cannot be unnatural, though there are very common belief systems that warp minds into believing just that.

Something's nature does not change due to one's maturity level, but their perception of it does, especially when indoctrinated in some manner, whether it is done conciously, intentionally, or not....

quote:
To allow your child access to images and thoughts that are not natural to their maturity level damages their growth and without consoling they are never able to learn those stages of development again.


How exactly does one allow or deny access to thoughts?

And do you advocate thought police, I hope so, because you are acting as one.

Where is this horrid place that doesn't console children who get upset?

quote:
Violence is not the same though it is not a natural reaction to act violently to a situation this attitude has been taught to are children through T.V., movies, adults.


Oh really? Tell that to your next meal.

And seriously, who was the dumbass that one day decided to start teaching that then?

And did animals learn it from watching tv or people?

Who the fuck is putting this shit in your head?

Violence is but the subjectively described result of the clash of opposing forces.

It is a degree of physical force, again, and very importantly, subjectively described while qualified by the subjectively percieved intent of the source.

It is one of the most basic and first learned concepts of any living creature.

Every time you give a child something they don't want or take away something they do, force them to stop doing something or force them to, can easily be seen as violent from their perspective, and given their general and NATURAL reactions, probably is.

quote:
Kindness that people act with is a direct result of the love and sheltering from scary things when they were younger.


This depends on some meanings of yours.

Kindness is the result of positive response both internal and external. And it is only definable as a polarity through the existance and knowledge of its opposite.

Kindness indeed flourishes with love, sheltering in terms of physically protecting from harm and providing safety is indeed beneficial, but sheltering in terms of censoring the reality of scary things is all together different and leads to people who cannot cope due to having missed out on exposure during key developmental periods as you have mentioned.


| Permalink
"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that zachf is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Quote

"I'm not talking about hardenning kids, I'm talking about not hamstringing them by over "protecting" them by censoring them from that which is natural."

You said it yourself over protecting is a problem protection must be given. Who's to decide whats enough. Well I'll tell you who, people who have dedicated their lifes to educating children and have spent more time on educating them selfs and spent more time then both of us around children.

These are the people i went to, I asked my child day care provider who has raised 6 children 3 of her own and me and my 2 sisters all of who are doing very well in the world. She didn't shelter us but if we asked her for some porn at the age of 8 she would've told us no. If we wanted to watch a man's body get mutilated she would've told us no.

Quote

"I'm talking about exposure to neutral sensory stimulus that is so often considered harmful and indeed made to be harmful due to absurd beliefs and forced context."

How are sex and violence neutral for that age.

Quote

"How exactly does one allow or deny access to thoughts?"

Thats simple by not allowing them access to material.

Quote

"And do you advocate thought police, I hope so, because you are acting as one.

Just because you deny access doesn't mean that your policing thoughts. The government deny's us access to top secret documents does this mean their policing are thoughts. No otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this right now.

Quote

"Where is this horrid place that doesn't console children who get upset?"

Upset is one thing but learning to handle the line between violence and words is another thing. Children who are taught to deal with problems with violence tend to resort to violence. Children who grow up using words tend to resort to using words.

Quote

"Oh really? Tell that to your next meal."

Next time you say something like this think it through. Primates are omnivores. But traditionally feeding on a diet almost entirely of plants and of small bugs. The eating of meat is taught by parents. It is not natural it is a evolutionary step.

Animals are taught to kill from there parents but they are NOT taught to kill each other. Lions who's entire system of family's revolves around fighting are not taught to actually kill one another. ONLY bugs in nature with few and far exception will kill their own species.

If you think by nature we are taught to kill and hurt people by DNA you really shouldn't be talking about the nature of children who are purest example of are true nature.

You are wrong or you gonna hit me for disagreeing with you.

| Permalink
"Whether we wake or we sleep, Whether we carol or weep, The Sun with his Planets in chime, Marketh the going of Time. -Edward Fitzgerald"
 44yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Who's to decide whats enough. Well I'll tell you who, people who have dedicated their lifes to educating children and have spent more time on educating them selfs and spent more time then both of us around children.


Educating to what? How to make a child happy? How to follow a set path and not break the rules, how to have a "free" mind within specific guidelines, how to be a "productive" contributor to a corrupt society, accessories...

Sure there needs to be balanced limitations, as we discuss, there is a line to be crossed, and I'm saying there is a point that has been crossed.

quote:
These are the people i went to, I asked my child day care provider who has raised 6 children 3 of her own and me and my 2 sisters all of who are doing very well in the world. She didn't shelter us but if we asked her for some porn at the age of 8 she would've told us no. If we wanted to watch a man's body get mutilated she would've told us no.


And I say that these are still people pumping out kids and ideas that are leading to the world we see around us, including the worst parts.

I don't say they are the primary source of the worst as opposed to enabling factors who through their "tried and true" methods have unfortunately, but continually, helped perpetuate some bad development of children.

I speak of seeds sown unbeknownst. Even if not of active corruption, but of fear and subserviance to it.

But yes, our arguments have been often unmatched in terms of refined points and larger concepts, plenty of which have lead to out of context debate.

At no point was I offerring an alternative form of child development but prodding you to look deeper at larger concepts to warn you of over reliance to "conventional wisdom" and even scientific study.

quote:
How are sex and violence neutral for that age.


They are neutral for any age, they are independant of us, again me having to argue out of context.

But once given the context of humans and children we add our subjective and reactionary qualifiers, children without developed concepts of consequence can cause harm, but that is with anything that has a physical capability of causing damage of some sort.

Fire, bees, and even puppies, neutral concepts that can and do cause harm but are not treated the same as sex and violence, which are referrenced primarily in their negatives alone, which is unfair to them.

Because the lack of understanding of consequence is meant to be balanced by guidance or experience.

And these negatives are so strong and so biased by a culture corrupted and taught to hate and fear nature that people like you can't fathom what that even means, let alone recognize it when it is brought up.

Your talk of studies and convention are ignorant to the warpings of society and how staying ignorant to them perpetuates it.

These studies you likely referrence, as ones I've seen who argue your point, are based on biased information, they talk of things like porn and even standard sex exposure as dirty, tragic, deadly. When they are basing these opinions on the effects of over exposure as we have covered.

And a rediculous and sad irony that so illustrates this point is that, addictions and abuse of sex is less harmful than that of eating unhealthy food, but who gets all the press.

This is because these concepts are manipulated, fear misplaced, overgrown, becoming over protected, feared, hated and blame gets pinned on healthy exposure, and then on the neutral concepts themselves.

Why is this done is a whole other story that you may want to look in to.

How many of the studies you speak of account for cultural attitudes that have crept over the line of reasonable protection and have been colored by biased fear to create blind dogmatic hatred and fear of that which is natural and in need of respect, not repression?

But as only a cursory glance at the history of sex and religion will show, repression is exactly what has been caused. Religions that so permeate and influence the very culture and science of the society we currently inhabit.

You speak of a safe balance but use words of denial and repression, to this I argue.

But perhaps you think that isn't relavent. Perhaps you feel that your security in your notions and teachings are infallible.

quote:
Just because you deny access doesn't mean that your policing thoughts. The government deny's us access to top secret documents does this mean their policing are thoughts. No otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this right now.


Oh? If material can equate to thought as you so wisely surmised, than that is exactly the case.

Do we not arrest people for gaining access to classified matierial, do we not arrest people for saying or showing "the wrong" things in public or on mass media?

Policing does not equate to total control. The closest to which is absolute denial of access to information from which to derive thought, which is actually worse, I guess I should say you are acting as a thought dictator.

And what you may fail to see is how the masses have been trained to police themselves.

And at what point do you think that training begins?

And how?

quote:
Children who are taught to deal with problems with violence tend to resort to violence


Exposure to the reality of, and, teaching to resort to, seem not to mean the same to me.

I fail to see where anyone made such a suggestion other than yourself.

quote:
Primates are omnivores. But traditionally feeding on a diet almost entirely of plants and of small bugs. The eating of meat is taught by parents. It is not natural it is a evolutionary step.


Is this a bible passage? Or does it just resemble one due to all the blatant contradiction?

quote:
Animals are taught to kill from there parents but they are NOT taught to kill each other. Lions who's entire system of family's revolves around fighting are not taught to actually kill one another.


Sounds like we may have gotten away from what is natural, wonder how that happened...

quote:
If you think by nature we are taught to kill and hurt people by DNA you really shouldn't be talking about the nature of children who are purest example of are true nature.


What, eating and pooping machines that attempt satisfy all their desires by dominiating their surroundings while ignorant of consequence will destroy all that hinders their goals, even that which sustains them?

My bad.

quote:
You are wrong or you gonna hit me for disagreeing with you.


Why, when you do such a good job all by yourself.

| Permalink
"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that zachf is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Iron I would like to start off by saying that calling people names is childish and that i take little offense to them but if this is your method of debate then is suggest review.

Quote

"Educating to what? How to make a child happy? How to follow a set path and not break the rules, how to have a "free" mind within specific guidelines, how to be a "productive" contributor to a corrupt society, accessories..."

You don't get what i'm saying your missing it. CHILDREN MUST BE TAUGHT TO BE HAPPY. There is nothing in are DNA making us happy nothing making us good.

If left in the wild we will become primitive animals once again maybe the computer you sit behind has led you to forget this but it is true.

We by nature are just like everything else in the world, we have a highly devolved brain that allows us to communicate at a higher level then most other animals.

We just like everything else in the world are survivalistic by nature. We must be taught to live in a large society and taught how to behave.

Meaning that if not taught how to create happiness and not taught to interact with people. That these skills will just come to people.

When creating a society one must create at least one uniform way to communicate and at least one universal goal.

In the society that we live in are chose form of communication is words and are goal as a society is happiness. If you don't this as true then think about why we come together.

So that everyone's life can be a little easier and ultimately give us more time to do what we want thus equaling happiness.

You seem to think that children shouldn't have to learn about anything and what ever the hell they want to they should be allowed access to.

You think that by letting people know what ever they want to know that the world will be a perfect place.

What you are doing is creating a nation of children who are elitist and elitist before they understand the true meaning of what they believe. Not elitist in their own thoughts but elitist in the thoughts of their unified peers. You want everyone to conform to the same thought through pressuring of the masses.

You believe that by creating a environment that everyone can learn what they want that it'll be perfect. When what really happens in systems like this is everyone follows the leader. The smartest people manipulate the masses through a false sense of freedom.

You want what you claim i say i want.

Quote

"And these negatives are so strong and so biased by a culture corrupted and taught to hate and fear nature that people like you can't fathom what that even means, let alone recognize it when it is brought up."

You twat don't talk down to me. I won't even respond to this, just because you to closed minded to see what i'm saying doesn't mean i'm to closed minded to KNOW what your saying and disagree.

Quote

"What, eating and pooping machines that attempt satisfy all their desires by dominiating their surroundings while ignorant of consequence will destroy all that hinders their goals, even that which sustains them?"

If you don't care then WHY the hell are you discussing it. If you truly marketed this point as invalid then your entire aurgement is blown because earlier you were talking about how they are the future and their are the answer to are society's problems.

Pick a side. Stupid or Smart.

Enough of that back to actually thought not pointless smite.

Iron how do expect a gay child to learn about his sexuality in front of other kids who like woman.

How do expect a dove to fly while the eagles swarm above.

You can't expect children to learn in a environment of their own creation with out supervision. Children will tease and try to get ahead this is what we do by nature.

Thats why we MUST teach people how to deal with primitive thoughts at a young age so one day they can discuss topics such as this.

| Permalink
"Whether we wake or we sleep, Whether we carol or weep, The Sun with his Planets in chime, Marketh the going of Time. -Edward Fitzgerald"
 44yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Wow, did you just snap like a twig.

quote:
Iron I would like to start off by saying that calling people names is childish and that i take little offense to them but if this is your method of debate then is suggest review.


quote:
You twat don't talk down to me


Care to point out where I called someone a name?

quote:
You don't get what i'm saying your missing it. CHILDREN MUST BE TAUGHT TO BE HAPPY. There is nothing in are DNA making us happy nothing making us good.


You need to fire your teachers. I missed it in my text books where humanity was devoid of happiness untill someone tripped over the happy stone and said "Hey, I just figured it out!"

But it makes for amusing imagery, and I thank you.

quote:
If left in the wild we will become primitive animals once again maybe the computer you sit behind has led you to forget this but it is true.


Damn, my computer must be broken, good thing this one is borrowed.

Because the more I look into the origin of man and our evolution, everything you said sounds more and more like bullshit.

Now granted, I've had my schooling and now am having to look into things they weren't kind enough to teach me.

To make the proper comparisons and fact checks that would have gotten me F's because there was no column for thinking for yourself to get an A in.

quote:
We by nature are just like everything else in the world, we have a highly devolved brain that allows us to communicate at a higher level then most other animals.


Wow, and here I thought we were just breaking through the tip of the iceburg on what has been listed as one of the greatest mysteries to mankind, the human brain.

Rediscovering over and over again just how little we know and just how much previous science and conventional wisdom was wrong.

I'm calling a PC tech, this is rediculous, but thank you for informing me of the vastness of my errors.

quote:
We just like everything else in the world are survivalistic by nature. We must be taught to live in a large society and taught how to behave.


Which, by your explanation can obviously in no way be defined as survivalistic in any fashion, I will pre-emptively stand corrected again.

quote:
Meaning that if not taught how to create happiness and not taught to interact with people.


Well thank god for those first lucky fuckers who just happened to know what to teach the rest of us, having not been taught themselves of course, as they were the... the first teachers, wait, I'm gonna get corrected again aren't I, this is hurting my unevolved brain. Maybe I've been in the woods to long.

quote:
When creating a society one must create at least one uniform way to communicate and at least one universal goal.

In the society that we live in are chose form of communication is words and are goal as a society is happiness. If you don't this as true then think about why we come together.

So that everyone's life can be a little easier and ultimately give us more time to do what we want thus equaling happiness.


The simple fashion of this makes it all so clear. So, in this ideal goal, I just don't have to worry about how everything is seemingly always getting harder and there is just always more war, corruption, enslavement, pain and sufferring.

The sad thing here is, that is kind of true, if we collectively wanted happiness rather then greed, ignorance, and dependence upon corrupt systems, we could have it.

But apparently we are satisfied thinking of ourselves as fragile unevolved stupid heads who just can't figure anything out for ourselves.

quote:
You seem to think that children shouldn't have to learn about anything and what ever the hell they want to they should be allowed access to.


I would obviously be lost without you to interpret what I think for me, because it always seem different from my end.

Now why would I want them to have access to things?

Surely not to learn as you have clearly stated I want nothing to do with that.

quote:
You think that by letting people know what ever they want to know that the world will be a perfect place.


Ooo, gonna have to interject on that one. See, I just looked at my broken computer, and it told me that what I actually feel is that teaching about what is broken helps in fixing it, sorry, but it flashed really brightly and typed that in all caps, I tried to tell it that you know better, but then it challenged me to checkers, and well...

quote:
What you are doing is creating a nation of children who are elitist and elitist before they understand the true meaning of what they believe. Not elitist in their own thoughts but elitist in the thoughts of their unified peers. You want everyone to conform to the same thought through pressuring of the masses.

You believe that by creating a environment that everyone can learn what they want that it'll be perfect. When what really happens in systems like this is everyone follows the leader. The smartest people manipulate the masses through a false sense of freedom.

You want what you claim i say i want.


Was your teachers name Orwell? Do you know what double speak is?




quote:
You twat don't talk down to me. I won't even respond to this...


quote:
just because you to closed minded to see what i'm saying doesn't mean i'm to closed minded to KNOW what your saying and disagree.


You're funny.

Your deft ability to actually address what I've actually said, rather than what you seem to think I think, begs to differ.

quote:
earlier you were talking about how they are the future and their are the answer to are society's problems.


Yeppers, if they are taught what they need to know when they need to know it, and how they need to be taught, allowing them to think on these subjects for themselves divining new and better ways to evolve, not sheltered from reality, fed fantasies, and indoctrinated into little sheeple who are so willing to fight to the death to protect their belief in the thoughts and behaviors forced into their heads by others without question.

quote:
Pick a side. Stupid or Smart.


I pick... purple...

shit.

quote:
Iron how do expect a gay child to learn about his sexuality in front of other kids who like woman.


Why, by sending him to a priest of course.


quote:
How do expect a dove to fly while the eagles swarm above.



By the even more inferior and even more devolved brained and worse developed communcation abilities of his Phd. in teaching parents of course.

Once they teach them to dispel such quaint notions as forces greater though less understood as natural instinct and all that of course.

Then they'll just map out directions of all of their migration routes like all their ancestors before them, and viola, poof, eagles have to live another day without an omlet.

quote:
You can't expect children to learn in a environment of their own creation with out supervision.


Sure I could, but not always, that would be silly.

Now I have to come back to something that I'd love to not have to sift through the logic train wreck that brought you to your conclusion, but this is by far my more important point.

quote:
What you are doing is creating a nation of children who are elitist and elitist before they understand the true meaning of what they believe.


First, I'm not creating any nation.

Second, how did you come up with creating elitist children?

quote:
Not elitist in their own thoughts but elitist in the thoughts of their unified peers.


My god man, I'm the one saying they need access to information, at non abusive or forced levels, so they can think on them for themselves, to overcome indocrinated beliefs about these ideas and information, forced on them by cultishly unified wanna be elitist peers.

You know, as opposed to what you said... remember? The reason we were still arguing.

quote:
You want everyone to conform to the same thought through pressuring of the masses.


Um, no?

quote:
You believe that by creating a environment that everyone can learn what they want that it'll be perfect.


Or, what I believe is that people need to be taught and learn all sorts of things and should have access to differring points of view and be allowed to make up their own damn mind unlike any school I've ever been to.

quote:
in systems like this is everyone follows the leader. The smartest people manipulate the masses through a false sense of freedom.


You do realise that you just described what happens in public schools and our current society in general that I'm spending years railing against, right?

And that kids and adults are rewarded for it while those who have a brain, perhaps disagree, point out that not all claimed facts really are facts, or just decide not to go along with the crowd are outcast and punished.

But feel free to explain just how you came up with that angle on me, because you just blew my mind sir.

| Permalink
"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that zachf is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Quote

"Wow, did you just snap like a twig"

... please, if thats one of my twigs snapping, just wait till the the hole damn tree comes one day.

Quote

"Because the more I look into the origin of man and our evolution, everything you said sounds more and more like bullshit. "

Do you not understand that humans push each other as a society, it is not in are DNA to advance are selfs.

Animals that live in groups have a better understanding of whats going on around them. We are just the same. If left of a island brought up from birth you would not adopt the same ideals you have now. Nor if you were taught to leave your wife after mating would we ever develop to where we are now, ever again.

Quote

"Which, by your explanation can obviously in no way be defined as survivalistic in any fashion, I will pre-emptively stand corrected again."

You touched the hot stove when you were younger. You should have been taught differently. But according to you we must keep touching the stove. Or is human nature with need of correction? (is something burning)

Quote

"You need to fire your teachers. I missed it in my text books where humanity was devoid of happiness untill someone tripped over the happy stone and said "Hey, I just figured it out!"

But it makes for amusing imagery, and I thank you. "

If you except the truth or not, will not effect how i respond to this type of statement.

In a society we work towards one goal. Like I've already said that goal is to make everyone's life easier so that we can ultimately achieve more happiness in are life's.

Thus are societal goal = happiness. If someone does not except this. They have two options 1) Become a hermit removed from society . 2) Live with everyone else who does and corrode the system from the inside out.

This is why we teach little kids to understand happiness at its fullest and live their life's achieving the highest levels of it as they can.

Quote

"Well thank god for those first lucky fuckers who just happened to know what to teach the rest of us, having not been taught themselves of course, as they were the... the first teachers, wait, I'm gonna get corrected again aren't I, this is hurting my unevolved brain. Maybe I've been in the woods to long."

Incorrect they were taught from their parent who'd mothering instincts told her that raising her child in the ways that are schools and such do now is the correct thing to do.

Now knowing that the stove is hot, other people used implied thinking skills and realized that mothering instincts must be over come. Thus creating a societal program that protects children from things that they need to be protected from and giving them information that they need to succeed.

If you would like to know how they came up with this information, Trial and error would be you answer. But now days. Numbers and trial and error.

Through out this post you have made several comments to the tune of I don't understand what you mean and that I'm putting words in your mouth. If you would like these to stop I would suggest that you fill me in on how you educate children without guild lines and still have them learn things that they need to understand.

Quote

"You do realise that you just described what happens in public schools and our current society in general that I'm spending years railing against, right?"

So who do suggest is leading this effort because i have never been told that i could not think about something in the public education system. They've just gave me the tools that i need in order to become a member of society. And understand the basics of the world.

| Permalink
"Whether we wake or we sleep, Whether we carol or weep, The Sun with his Planets in chime, Marketh the going of Time. -Edward Fitzgerald"
 44yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
... please, if thats one of my twigs snapping, just wait till the the hole damn tree comes one day.


In dire anticipation, I assure you.

quote:
Do you not understand that humans push each other as a society


Sure, but can this pushing ever be considered forced, and can a society ever be wrong in its actions?

quote:
it is not in are DNA to advance are selfs.


Making statements like this make you look less intelligent than I was hoping you were.

quote:
Animals that live in groups have a better understanding of whats going on around them.


You are excluding issues of trust and inconsistencies of individuals personal agendas which completely warp and shatter your simplified ideals, especially in referrence to the human animal.

quote:
If left of a island brought up from birth you would not adopt the same ideals you have now.


Like wanting happiness and control over harmful aspects of my environment, the same notion you espouse is only capable in a group or society and the main goal of it, nonsense, stop it.

Stop feeling you have to be correct in your words or beliefs and start openning your heart and mind to all that you don't know and find what you can learn from everything.

You will spend your life learning and "advancing" unless you suddenly feel you have the answers, at which point you will shut your brain off as indicated, likely follow those who say they are pushing you towards your goal.

And you won't have to worry, because they SAID their goals were the same as yours.

quote:
You touched the hot stove when you were younger.quote]

Indeed.

[quote]You should have been taught differently.


Probably, but not likely taught what you would advocate.

quote:
But according to you we must keep touching the stove.


No, unless all else fails...

quote:
Or is human nature with need of correction? (is something burning)


Human nature, and likely other factors, has lead to blind trust in liars and manipulators, and we are burning.

Because it was not a stove at all, it was the hands and minds of a burning society that scorched me.

quote:
If you except the truth or not, will not effect how i respond to this type of statement.

In a society we work towards one goal. Like I've already said that goal is to make everyone's life easier so that we can ultimately achieve more happiness in are life's.


Which has nothing to do with my correction to your point that humans cannot know happiness without being taught what it is and how to attain it.

Your inability to debate in context, even your own established context, is getting old and degrading this conversation.

quote:
Thus are societal goal = happiness. If someone does not except this. They have two options 1) Become a hermit removed from society . 2) Live with everyone else who does and corrode the system from the inside out.

This is why we teach little kids to understand happiness at its fullest and live their life's achieving the highest levels of it as they can.


And because you like your teachers before you have had such simplistic mentalities they have failed to see that #2 has become an issue and rearranged society so that you now work towards their happiness at the cost of your own.

quote:
Incorrect they were taught from their parent who'd mothering instincts told her that raising her child in the ways that are schools and such do now is the correct thing to do.


Seriously? Are you really not choking on knot of illogic and contradiction that you just attempted to spit out here?

So, I'm wrong because, no, they didn't figure it out, their mom did... are you retarded?

quote:
Now knowing that the stove is hot, other people used implied thinking skills and realized that mothering instincts must be over come.


Again, your not making much sense, your mixing contexts, and confusing points, and perhaps just structuring your explanations poorly, or I'm retarded.

You said that happiness was not inherent in human nature (in DNA) and had to be taught, and you poo pooed on your own point when saying mom's instinct told her and she taught it.

And you have made many points just like this that I give up on restranslating due to your unwillingness to hear anything but yourself.

quote:
If you would like to know how they came up with this information, Trial and error would be you answer. But now days. Numbers and trial and error.


Silly me for taking your word for it in when you first said mom came up with it instinctually.

quote:
Through out this post you have made several comments to the tune of I don't understand what you mean and that I'm putting words in your mouth. If you would like these to stop I would suggest that you fill me in on how you educate children without guild lines and still have them learn things that they need to understand.


Well I guess I'm screwed, because the only point I might argue is who's guidelines and just what guidlines would be in place.

quote:
So who do suggest is leading this effort because i have never been told that i could not think about something in the public education system.


Guess that only happens to the smart kids who make valid points of dissent and prove them wrong.

quote:
They've just gave me the tools that i need in order to become a member of society. And understand the basics of the world.


Only half of that is correct, because if they gave you the other half, the society that exists today, wouldn't.

One much better likely would.

Which is my ultimate argument of the most important things not being taught to children, or adults for that matter.

| Permalink
"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
[  Edited by Ironwood at   ]
 31yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that zachf is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Iron, the writing's bad my fault. Theres only so much reading and such one can do to help this. Communicating thoughts is one of my weak points (Again I am trying to improve this).

Quote

"Sure, but can this pushing ever be considered forced, and can a society ever be wrong in its actions"

Yes and Yes

Quote

"Making statements like this make you look less intelligent than I was hoping you were."

All I was saying is that information is not built into us. That if we could break DNA code we would not find all the answers to the worlds problems. We as people hold the power to find solutions and that ability is drawn out to a much greater extent when people unify to work for a common goal.

Quote

"Stop feeling you have to be correct in your words or beliefs and start openning your heart and mind to all that you don't know and find what you can learn from overthing.

You will spend your life learning and "advancing" unless you suddenly feel you have the answers, at which point you will shut your brain off and indicated, likely follow those who say they are pushing you towards your goal. "

I understand (trust me) that i am far from being a self-educated thinker epically to the level which you and others on this site are. Not to say that your not book educated either (my guess is that you are)

To say that i think inside the box is correct we all do to a point. But i think i'm very open to new idea's. I am not continuing this because I want my mind to stay the same. I have made a lot of effort to understand were you are coming from.

The answer that i have found time after time is that children at a young age exposed to excessive amounts of violence or sex at a young age. Minds will be desensitizes from these acts

I am not saying stop kids from seeing these things. I am saying one must regulate how much a child can see of such things.

I keep saying sex not because i think its bad but because, i view it as a opposite of violence and should be treated with much more care then we do now.

We don't expose people in general to enough of it. The act of having sex is natural and should be celebrated between people and shown on public t.v. as part of a script not the entire thing when shown.

Violence is the different, it is a issue that must be resolved. I watched a 60 minutes of exposure to violence in America's children. It is said by the time a child reaches the age of 12 they will have witnessed over 1,000,000 murders on T.V. or video games.

I don't know how one could view this as healthy, violence is part of the world. Certain people at certain times must be killed for the betterment of all. A pounding placed when someone steps to far over the line. Is in line.

But 1,000,000 this is my concern this is what happens when children are allowed to view and do what they want with their own learning.

These are averages so there are exceptions either way but an average is what the show said.

Please don't say i'm basing my argument on a show because I don't have numbers from another source but if one turns on the T.V. you are most likely to see some act of violence through out the show. This can be proven by turning of a T.V

Before I go on, on a personal note I am almost totally anti-violence because violence is a self destructive act. Only when one is fighting for the core of their life style or that of someone else's should violence be used.

I will not continue on what we have already stated much more because we are getting more and more off topic with this discussion and starting to argue those points with a sense of morals and philosophy not generally excepted as facts. Which we would have to start separate threads in order to truly discuss in full.

On finishing I am not afraid of being wrong. I will read what you say. I will observe the world. I will find out what overs think. I will find what I truly think. Then i will take into account all factors and points stated and decide from their.

You have caused a shift in thinking in this tread. I don't agree with you 100% but i do agree with you more then i did. So don't say i can't open my mind. I'm just not going to give it away.

| Permalink
"Whether we wake or we sleep, Whether we carol or weep, The Sun with his Planets in chime, Marketh the going of Time. -Edward Fitzgerald"
 38yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Wyote is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Education is like a lot of things, when performed with good intention the result is positive. When performed with malice and deceit the outcome is more often poor or somehow negative.

No matter the act being witnessed, if the person watching is not capable of fully understanding that act's implications, repercussions and so forth, they will not correctly assimilate the information. It can be learned with proper teaching, but until that occurs, the information previously absorbed will be a detriment to that person's psyche if the act witnessed is considered to be a negative one.

| Permalink
"A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge. - Thomas Carlyle"
 44yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Wyote, I would add, or clarify, that truth taught with balanced perspective of both its positive and negative aspects and results from abuse is positive.

Good intentions has its own cliche for a reason, it is a blinding factor that has lead many astray. So perhaps good educated and balanced intentions, perhaps.

quote:
the information previously absorbed will be a detriment to that person's psyche if the act witnessed is considered to be a negative one.


Exactly, because the uneducated persons reaction is likely to be neutral, unless the witnessed event produces signs of pleasantness or threat, untill a perspective of positivity or negativity is influenced on them by another, usually a parent who often has a biased reaction, not always innapropriate, but given the most common systems of teaching and influence in this country to date, generally it is.

Zach, this was the influence unseen by the common educator of children I was debating with you, it is obvious that otherwise we hold aggreement on most or all other points.

I would just warn you against assumption on points you often make definitive statements about.

Such as instincts and DNA and sourcing of information and learning in humans.

We then get into realms not fully understood to science, religion, or any of it, at least not to the masses.

And there are fascinating directions this research is taking us. Much of it just discovering that we are relearning things once known but lost to us, much seemingly with intent.

We have the ability to tune into much more information in various forms and frequencies of vibratory energy than we understand, like different light and sound spectrums that we currently can't see with the human eye or hear with the ear, yet an animal or machine can.

Some of these unseen dimensions are and can become visible or known to us when we learn how to percieve what we are witnessing or how to develop the ability to tune into them more clearly.

Every aspect of our body is a reciever and transmitter of these energies, our ignorance of this and how to utilize it is our true limitation.

But I think you are on the right path with your position to teach and live the positive, just don't forget to be aware of and ready to educate and defend against the negative.

And yes, please don't give your mind away.

| Permalink
"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
[  Edited by Ironwood at   ]
Is there anything you shouldn't educate children? - Page 2
  1    2  
About Captain Cynic
Common FAQ's
Captain Cynic Guides
Contact Us
Terms of Use
Privacy Policy
General Forum Rules
Cynic Trust Levels
Administrative Contact Forum
Registration
Lost Password
General Discussion
Philosophy Forums
Psychology Forums
Health Forums
Quote Submissions
Promotions & Links
 Captain Cynic on Facebook
 Captain Cynic on Twitter
 Captain Cynic RSS Feed
 Daily Tasker
Copyright © 2011 Captain Cynic All Rights Reserved.   Terms of Use   Privacy Policy