The more I learn about the world, the more I become dissatisfied with it. - Attolia
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If there's a god, why is there evil? - Page 7

User Thread
 40yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Strongclad is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I have read through the first few pages of this thread and after getting tired of reading, I just decided I was going to post.

First of all, everyone realizes that we all have responsibility for each of our OWN lives. That's the way things are, period! It is our' "free will" to do as we please, even at the cost of harming other individuals in the process. If there is no God, we all must come to this conclusion. This is the way life is and has always been. Life is what we make of it, and sometimes we CHOOSE in life to be evil.

Second, when God enters into the topic of "why is there evil?", why must people think that an all powerful, perfect creator cannot create something that can become evil and imperfect? I'm just saying, isn't an ALL powerful God powerful enough to do this?

Third, why do people think that because God is perfectly good, and since we are His creation, we must therefore also be good? This is not a plausible arguement. We cannot have free will to do whatever we want (that means choosing to do evil if we want to), and be controlled by God to be perfectly good against our wills. If that were the case, we would be mindless automatons just being good all the time with no choice to do anything. I don't know about you guys, but I am not, nor want to be, a robot. I could not love a god who controlled everything about me. In fact, I would be loving God against my own free will since He wouldn't give me the chance to hate Him.

Because He lets us choose good or evil, some say that He might not even be perfect, or that He might possibly even be evil himself. Again this would contradict the possible reality of a personal god. If you were God, wouldn't you want your creation to CHOOSE you out of the love they have for you in their own hearts? And just to add as another example: if there was a guy or girl out there that you loved deeply, would you force them to love you even though they might hate you? That as you know would be wrong, so why would you expect a personal, loving God to do the same thing?

See, the God of the Bible is just the opposite of these things I've described. Some have asked, can God create a rock so big that He cannot move it, or a wall so strong that he cannot break through it. Indeed he has. He created the human heart. It is the one thing He will not penetrate. He wants us to choose Him! And the only way to do that is by giving us the freedom to do so. Love must always start free.

As the Bible claims, we humans were created good (sinless) not evil. Satan was also created good. Lucifer had the highest potential to do good, but with freedom he also had the highest potential for evil. And as you know, he fell. Evil is the route he chose and he will pay the consequences just like we will for choosing evil.

So to sum it all up... We know that we control the outcome of our lives (duh!) even if there is a god. And, God will not make us choose Him because of His extreme love for us. Think about it...all He wants is TRUE love!

This is what the WHOLE Bible is about! The history of God redeeming the stubborn humankind back to Himself. For the sake of love.

Anyone who wants to look into this further...should. There are plenty of resources out there to answer peoples' difficulties with the Bible.

I'd recommend a book by Gregory A. Boyd called LETTERS FROM A SKEPTIC, "A Son Wrestles with His Father's Questions about Christianity"

or 20 COMPELLING EVIDENCES THAT GOD EXISTS by Kenneth D. Boa & Robert M. Bowman Jr.

Two of my all time favorites are THE CASE FOR CHRIST by Lee Strobel a former atheist who gives major evidences for the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, and THE CASE FOR FAITH also by Lee Strobell that answers the difficulties that people have with the Christian faith.

Check this stuff out!

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"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."
 40yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Crimson_Saint is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Mr. Humble - "But what about the people who contributed to the 911 attack fund for the families? And what about the millions of people who were saved due to disease research? See there is a pretty good balance."
The evils of 9/11 PALE in comparison to the good science and progress have done to make people wealthier and happier.

But anyway, how do you quantify evil anyway? I need some hard evidence before believing that good and evil have always been balanced.

Strongclad - Your first point is debateable. We may often have the impression of deciding your own actions, but do you really? We are our genetics, our environment and some randomness.

On your third point "Third, why do people think that because God is perfectly good, and since we are His creation, we must therefore also be good? This is not a plausible arguement."
Now lets flip this argument around. Assuming god is all good, why would he give us the ability to do evil? So that we may love him? He must be fairly ego-centric for an all good being to let evil exist so a few people love him.

"As the Bible claims, we humans were created good (sinless) not evil."
Then something corrupted us. And since god created everything, whatever corrupted must have been god's work.

I find this very dubious that you believe the world we live in, is designed to make us love God. I think omnipotent God would make a more convincing effort at making me love him for example.

In conclusion, it is impossible to tell why God lets evil exist. One can only assume (given his omnibenevolence) that it will lead to greater good. How this evil will lead to good is impossible to tell however. I doubt though, that this greater good is to make us love him, if it is, then he is extraordinarily incompetent at it.

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"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."
 62yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
God created everything - God created evil. To think that God created evil to make us love him is pretty sick. I think if I believed that God was playing some kinda game like that with me, I would hate him/her/it.

I think it's all about growing up. Who can explain how a plant grows. Science can get pretty deep into it, but we can't fully grasp it. I think the same thing applies to this good and evil thing. It's all apart of our growth.

Evil is a subject that (those who are called liberals) will not face. My experience is that in not facing evil - it shows itself - and in making itself known, terrible things happen.

I was thinking about this once: Just imagine, Lincoln told them slave owners that slavery was wrong. "Slaves are people too and have the same rights as all people do, and they should not be slaves," Lincoln said. So the slave owners said, "Gee Wiz Mr. Lincoln, we just didn't realize, we're going to set all those slaves free." Why not? Aren't those slave owners intelligent people. How did they get so rich in the first place. Did they get rich by being stupid? But what did happen is that we fought one of the most horrible wars in our history. How did Hitler convince a whole nation to kill 6 million jews (and others)? How could a person possibly believe that if they caused 9/11. They will go to heaven to live out there lives eternally with a whole bunch of virgins that they could make love to anytime they wanted to. Evil - I think we can say, "It's stupid." But other than that, we really don't know a whole lot about it. I believe it is there to make us grow up. But I can't explain that to you, because I'm not grown up. I'm still here, and I still have to face evil. I cannot explain what I have not obtained.

But I think the question that is on many peoples minds is: How can good create evil? Well now see. How can we know good if we don't know evil? Who says god is good? I've known some very educated religious persons who will tell you that god is good and bad, and you always want to be sure to be on his good side. But because we can't, Jesus died so we could. I don't necessarily believe that, but you can if you want too. There is some truth in there. In the scriptures. People say god is good, but god doesn't say that. We are the problem. We are the ones who have to believe that if there is a god, then god is good. But for some reason we can never believe that we are perfect. But we won't call ourselves sinners. We'll just say, we make mistakes. And it's not our fault. Our parents are to blame. Should we be parents, we will make mistakes, and our children can blame us. But we don't never seem to figure out evil because we won't face it. We just can't admit that we can be or are.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 40yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Strongclad is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Sorry. When I got finished with this post I didn't realise it would be this long. So please bear with me.

It's hard for the majority of people in this world who do and do not believe in God to realise that if God is real, and if we are to know about Him, that He must have had some sort of contact with us during the history of Humankind. Any belief structure about God must be based on those facts and what He has REVEALED to us about Himself.

The problem is that many tend to believe what they want to believe about God, whether it's true or not. This is why people can't come to an agreement on an arguement such as this, because to a relativist, what someone else says is just their opinion. I don't say this to offend anyone here, so I'm sorry if I'm so blunt, but I say this just to make a point.

We must base any beliefs we have on our observations of the facts, correct? This is what science is all about; observing what is around us to make conclusions about what life is about and how it works. It is based on only what is true, and if we can't find the answers one way, we look for more evidence elsewhere, to find truth. This is also just common sense logic. So with God, what we know, or more precisely what we claim to know about him must be based on the same science of observation.

Crimson_Saint- "We may often have the impression of deciding your own actions, but do you really? We are our genetics, our environment and some randomness."
We are not just chemicals in motion. Genetics give us some of our physical traits as humans but can't force us make moral choices against our wills. Our environment has a tendency to dupe some who are weak to become evil. example: an abused child raised by drunken parents may grow up to vent by abusing his future wife, but there are those who rise above iniquity. And there is some randomness, I agree, but not enough to blame randomness for the state of an evil person. We live in a world where no one is immune to the sights of violence and immorality so people do have a sense of how to be morally sound, though they choose not to. Humans cannot claim that they do not know how to do right instead of wrong.

"Assuming god is all good, why would he give us the ability to do evil? So that we may love him? He must be fairly ego-centric for an all good being to let evil exist so a few people love him."
This is one question I haven't answered myself. Why create us in the first place? I don't really have the answer. I sometimes think that no one really does. But based on what we know and the evidence for the God of the Bible, He does love us, and has given us many chances to rely on Him.

"...something corrupted us. And since god created everything, whatever corrupted must have been god's work."
True, though we were not really much corrupted as we were TEMPTED. Genesis gives the whole story about the Garden of Eden; the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and how God told us not to eat from it; that we were tempted by Satan to eat it's fruit; and were then corrupted after we broke God's first command as evil flourished inside of us.

okcitykid said: "God created everything - God created evil." God didn't create evil, since it would be evil for God to do so. The Bible says that God created humans good. We were made free to do as we pleased in the Garden, and we didn't know what was good or evil before we chose to eat the fruit. When we fell, knowledge of good and evil entered our minds and we then felt guilt. That is why Adam and Eve hid themselves when they realised they were naked. We were the ones who brought evil into the world, and had the choice not to do so.

"I find this very dubious that you believe the world we live in, is designed to make us love God. I think omnipotent God would make a more convincing effort at making me love him for example."
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the Bible states anywhere in its contents that the world was designed to make us love God.
God has worked in a different way. He came INTO THE WORLD over and over again to try and work things out. He told us again and again that if we come to Him and obey His commands, that He would be our God and we would live more abundantly. He didn't ever force us. But the people he came to were stubborn and kept falling into sin and stopped obeying His commands.

Throughout the history of the human race He has been calling us to repent of our evil ways and turn back to Him. His last attempt at trying to save us from our evil ways was with Jesus. Christ took all of our sins with him on the Cross as a perfect sacrifice. By putting our faith in him, and what he has done, we choose to follow him and his ways instead of evil which in itself is taking a stand against evil.

It is the same now as it was then. We have adequate information and evidence of God working in the world to know who He is, what He is trying to do, and to know that He is real and what He is doing is true. Christ came to earth full of grace and truth, and we must live our lives in truth. This is why I stress so much in finding out what is true-in-fact. When you look diligently for truth in the God of the Bible and you seek without bias or prejudice you will find that He is not wrong. We take a stand against evil when we love God with all our hearts, and all our souls, and all our minds. After this is loving our neighbors as we would ourselves.

Peace.

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"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."
 35yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Mr. Humble is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I wonder if we are all thinking about this way too much. What do you guys think? Is this that important that we spend so much time on it? Just curious.

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""How do you know we exist? Maybe we don't exist." -Vivi FF9"
 40yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Crimson_Saint is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
"I wonder if we are all thinking about this way too much. What do you guys think? Is this that important that we spend so much time on it? Just curious."
Well I'm really bored ATM so I don't mind wasting time like this!

Strongclad - " Genetics give us some of our physical traits as humans but can't force us make moral choices against our wills."
I'll have to disagree with this. For example if (IF) homosexuality is evil, then it is not a gay's fault he is evil. Its not his fault he is attracted to men, its not his choice, its his genes.

" Humans cannot claim that they do not know how to do right instead of wrong. "
No but they can claim that what the evil they do is in fact what is right in their view. Hitler believed jews were subhuman and communists would mean the end of society, killing them was a good thing in his eyes.

"Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the Bible states anywhere in its contents that the world was designed to make us love God.
God has worked in a different way. He came INTO THE WORLD over and over again to try and work things out."
I thought God is omnipotent and given his apparent goal to make us love him, it would be in his interest to make the world one which would make us love him.

"It is the same now as it was then. We have adequate information and evidence of God working in the world to know who He is, what He is trying to do, and to know that He is real and what He is doing is true."
Very debateable. I've seen little evidence of God.

"We take a stand against evil when we love God with all our hearts, and all our souls, and all our minds. After this is loving our neighbors as we would ourselves."
Why does doing good seem to have less importance then loving God? I don't see why God should care whether or not we love him, so long as I'm a good person. In any case, God has given little reason for anyone to love him. On this Earth, much of the world suffers from disease, famine and war. It hardly makes anyone want to love a God who lets the world remain like this.

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"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."
 62yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Before I reply to anything else. Let me first off say that when I implied that God is not perfect. That was about the dumbest things I ever said. I thought about it yesterday and thought "what am I saying." I hope nobody believed me. Sometimes I am stupid.

How can we know what perfect is if we are not. This is very complicated, but I do enjoy the subject.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 62yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
"The Bible says that God created humans good." The bible does not say this. As a matter of fact, in the bible it says that god repented of himself for making man. Though it is possible for us to do things wrong. There is an evil in this world that we have no control over. Ethiopians dying of hunger just after being born. One of the biggest sins I think that there is. Depriving another person of food even unto death. Yet many of us have tried to help them. But the governments to be have thorted all efforts. Yet we didn't go to war to overthrow these governments (a subject that makes me angry). Here is a paradox: Hitler. He lived on the street. And believe it or not, he was a good poet. Discovered by a Jewish family who took him in. With there help he managed to support himself writing poems for a card company. Who would have thought this man would become so powerful that he would almost destroy the Jewish nation, and why would he do this?

I sin, do things wrong and make mistakes. And some times I'm even stupid. I don't always know the right choice to make and have made wrong choices. But evil, I am not. But some people are. Are they evil or is it a force that controls them? This is something we know little about. Just like God, we know little about. We have not reached maturity nor do we know perfection. But if God is the creator of all things and there is evil in this world. God must have created it. And once again - the bible says so, this was shown in earlier posts.

I'm glad that you believe that Jesus died for your sins and you found peace. I sometimes find myself almost believing that myself. I know many people who have changed their whole lives accepting this same belief, I will not tell them they are wrong. Though salvation may come from this belief, so do evil things. History teaches us this more than anything. I know there are people who have also found salvation through other beliefs.

There is evil in this world, god has created it, why? I don't think you know and I will admit that I don't either. But I do believe God is good, even perfect and I am not. I'll even call myself a sinner, but I will not say I am evil. I'm not sure if anyone is. But I know that there is evil in this world. We should know more about this thing than we do.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 40yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Strongclad is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I would like to just make a quick post asking a few questions and stating a little bit about myself. I don't know if this has already been done or not, since I haven't read all of the posts on this thread. Then later I will write a responce to the posts above.

I think if we know a little about each other in connection with this topic, we might come to understand each other's points of view a little bit better.

First, I would like to ask, how long has everyone been trying to work out the problems with this arguement of God and evil? The effort people put into things shows how much they are truly in need of answers, and just how important it is to them.

Second, where have you been getting your information? Have you been browsing through any of the mainstream religions for any length of time, or have you read any of the scriptures from their faiths? Or, are your beliefs in God just your personal opinions or do you believe there is no way you can possibly know who God is or what he is like?

Third and finally, why do you take such a stance (that is if you have one at the moment)?

I never spent too much time on the problem of God and Evil when I started considering the claims of Christianity, but it did come into the picture as I thought more about it in college.

I was raised as a Roman Catholic until about fifth grade, when I moved and was placed into a public school. Going to church one Wednesday out of the week with Catholic school and church with my mom on Sundays totally stopped. But I think that's where I formed my views of God when I was young, but after that I pretty much forgot about Him or was just too busy skateboarding to care.

In college a friend of mine (who is a Christian) invited me to go see a Christian alternative band, and the vocalist said something (I can't remember what; probably something about sin and Hell and Christ and salvation) that really stuck in my mind and made me think.

That one night sent me into a 2 year search for answers. I wanted to know if any of the claims were true. So I bought a Bible, and read numerous books on topics such as why the Bible is historically reliable; why the claimed miracles and the birth, death and resurrection are reliable. I needed to know if Christianity was really in conflict with science, and why I should pick this faith over numerous others. What makes Christianity so trustworthy, was what I wanted to know. How can I know that the Bible has stood the test of time and hasn't been altered or corrupted? I needed to know that it was real.

I've read the Bible and took a course on world religions while in college to see what they were all about. Since then I've been a Christian for a little over a year. I had no proof or reason to believe the claims of the Bible were false, and to me, my old view of God was lacking. I realised that thinking whatever I wanted to about God was really ignorant. I mean, God is who He is no matter what we think or feel about Him. And to me, the claims of other religions didn't stand up. Their burden of showing proof was lacking.

If anyone has any problems with the assertiveness of Christians (and I'm sorry if I'm a bit offensive by sounding as if I think I know it all) but I really recommend all of you to pick up a book like Lee Strobel's, "The Case For Christ." This guy was an investigative journalist for the Chicago Tribune (I think that's the right newspaper) and also has a Masters of Studies in Law from Yale Law School. He finds out one day that his wife became a Christian, and being an atheist he didn't buy it. Surprised with how his wife's newfound faith had changed her, and how she stuck with it, he decided to find out what the deal was. He made many trips to many scholars to find out if what his wife believed was true. To make it reasonable, he treated it just like a court case. In the end he had no other option but to believe Christianity was true itself. If you read this book you will understand why Christians are so unyeilding with their faith sometimes.

Man I write to much!

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"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."
 32yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that UnderDawg is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
This is way off topic now, but o well.

In response to someone asking how there has to be good AND evil, think of it this way. If there were no evil, good in itself would not be considered "good" because it would be the behavior of all beings. If there were no good, evil would not exist because "evil" actions would not be considered evel without having a "good" to compare it to.
Just my thoughts

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"My drum skills > Your drum skills"
 35yrs • M •
Yurishima is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
God gave man the free will to either accept or Deny God. He already knew who was going to accept him or deny him, because he is the all knowing. Even so, God loves us, and let us make our own decisions and we are responsibile for them. Started at the beginning why their is evil (sin) Adam went against God when you choosed to eat a fruit that he shouldn't of ate. It was a test of faith, and he failed. And It was born, evil (sin) on the earth. It's mans own desires to do what they want and not what God wants that creates evil. Man is jealous of many things. Jealousy is also one of the main keys lots of things happen. God knew they were going to turn against him. But God is a loving God, so he sent his son to die for us so that we may have away to him. Once you accept God, you are dead to sin. You no longer have sin that accounts against you to enter heaven. You still can commit sin but aren't bound to it. Sin is evil. Mans own desire, but Gods love that allowed them to even make that chance because he loves us.

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 40yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Crimson_Saint is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Strongclad - 1st The evil and god debate is often one of the main arguments atheists (myself till recently) use against the belief of God. However I studied a bit of Leibniz who treated this subject in class and now I feel it is not impossible for God to exist in a world that has elements that we perceive as evil. So I am still atheist for other reasons.

2nd If God exists, I doubt a book would be able to describe him well.

3rd I believe my stance, that evil exists in some form because it will create a greater good later in a way we cannot understand because it is the only one that is possible.
Evils exist, no denying it and IF God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient, then these evils are in fact only perceived evils, and they must lead to greater good.

Though I find it dubious that you trust an outdated book more then your own feel and personal relationship with God. There is no reason to believe the Quran is less true then the Bible.

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"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."
 40yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Crimson_Saint is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Yurishima - Is God a good one if he demands complete and utter obedience? Is he a good God if he creates us knowing we will break his rules and sin (and send us into hell for eternal damnation)?

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"AIDS is God's way of sending Catholics to heaven."
 35yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Mr. Humble is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
God doess't ask for our compleate obediance. There was a passage (somewhere) about the other two crosses next to the one that Jesus was crucified on. One of the other people hung was actually a theif, and he said before he died that he believed that the person next to him was Jesus. Jesus responded something like this "I will see you in heaven brother" (or somethin' like that)

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""How do you know we exist? Maybe we don't exist." -Vivi FF9"
 35yrs • M •
Yurishima is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
quote:
Yurishima - Is God a good one if he demands complete and utter obedience? Is he a good God if he creates us knowing we will break his rules and sin (and send us into hell for eternal damnation)?



God does ask for obedience that you give everything to him. But he knows man will not do so. His love never changes because his love is unconditional and unchangable. Yes, he is a good God. An awesome God for that matter. He is the meaning of God, everything he has done is meaning of Good because he cannot do evil.
God is a loving God, but God is also a just God. he loved us so much he sent his son to die for us because he knew. Now your asking if hes a Good God if he sends us to hell knowing we would do so anyways. Yes. He is a good god because he gives all man the opportunity to know him in some circumstances or another. He gives them that chance to either accept or deny. If you choose to deny, you have already Blasphames yourself. Blasphames is an eternal sin, because people who commit it already harden their hearts so much that they already damned themselves to hell. Now, Blasphames is meant for the Faros in that time because its meant for people who actually seen his works and deny that is him and that he may just be the devil. But their is away out of that, accepting and repeanting to God cofessing and knowing he died for our sins etc. But He is saying that man already harden their hearts to much that they probably wouldnt. God did create us in his image, but it was us who went against him. He wants us to glorify him. Again, you ask if he is a Good God. Yes, he is because he gives every opportunity even if you may not realize it to seek him and know him ans your savior.

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If there's a god, why is there evil? - Page 7
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