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Occupy Wall Street

User Thread
 27yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that James008 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Occupy Wall Street
I am only a observer of this action because i do not live in the states but i am for it.

I despise capitalism and i think socialism is the best solution currently.

But that is only my view of this so please do speak your mind.

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"Life is interesting but the universe rules."
 35yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that mutnuaq is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Russia (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.), China, Cuba and Nazi Germany were all socialists.

Yeah you pick your friends well.

Do you not realize what socialism is or leads to?

Perhaps you just like the fairytale spin that socialists use to convince ignorant people to jump on board.

So everyone knows THOSE are the countries they are saying we should be like when they say we should be socialist.

Just because capitalism is being abused by wall street as well was our government doesn't mean it's bad. It definately doesn't mean you do the opposite thing in response. If you are having trouble fixing someones heart you don't just smash it instead.

Yes both wall street and the government are abusing our free market. It's free....freedom gets abused. We didn't start off with all the laws and regulations we have today in society in the beginning. We looked at where the problems were and corrected them with laws and regulations.

The left wing says tear it down....the right wing says No! Let them do ANYTHING they want.

Those are both really really stupid Ideas. Stop and think for a second.....where did T.V. come from? Computers? Heart surgery? What country harnest electricity? What country made the car? Our country attracted the best of everyone across the world. We attracted the bold daring people that had big Ideas.

They fled their socialist countries to come here and flourish. Freedom to grow is what made all these things possible.

Ask yourself why it was America that led the way in almost everything in the past century?

Americans aren't a genetic race like most other countries. So it's not the race. It's the country itself. It was our freedom. There was no limit to what we could achieve becuase there was nothing in our way.

The problem with wallstreet is the problem with socialism. They both are trying to control the wealth in different ways. One group hordes it and manipulates it. Another steals and distributes it.

Huge company's have so much money they have the power to influence the law makers to be create an environment that yields maximum profits for minimal investments.
It's an indirect form of governing. An environment that doesn't promote a productivity based economy but a speculative based economy.

There are actually a few different markets
Speculative and financial are the two main kind however financial markets include stocks and bonds, currency markets, commodity market, and futures markets.
Most of our countries wealth is actually tied in the futures market....you'd hope actual commodities should be the biggest but it's not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prediction_market
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_market

Heres the thing. Stocks aren't the same as a company's actual current value. It's the value that investors "expect" it to be. That by itself allows for alot of manipulation. You could be trading stock for a worthless company at 100 dollars per share in theory. That isn't a reflection of capitalsm. It's a reflection of criminalism.

They are abusing the free market system the same way criminals abuse the free society system we live in.



Just something to think about.

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"334jui8"
[  Edited by mutnuaq at   ]
 35yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that mutnuaq is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
That's not to say a futures market isn't nessasary because things go up and down in value so buying something cheap that you can predict will go up in price later produces alot of money and gives upcoming company's the ability to grow quickly and compete. It's just a needed system that is being abused.

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"334jui8"
 27yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that James008 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
please note mutnuaq that i said it looks like the best solution currently.

now lets move on to some other solution, oh and i am not trying to do the complete opposite of capitalism. after you read this you will understand, and i only said socialism because it is the thing which mostly represent what is said on the web page. and please when you read this page please understand the theory of what is said and disregard that it from an alien planet because even if it is a story made up by that guy i would say he did a great job.

http://www.rune.galactic.to/iarga.html

the other reason i say socialism is because i believe it will be the one which can be the most easily be change to represent something like that or something even better opposed to capitalism which is now almost impossible to change because those rich people have the money and power to insure only change for them!!!

and just for something extra go and watch the arrivals series, you can get it from you tube. it will give you some more clarity on the wall street events and give you the big picture which i believe you are missing.

there is something i like to call supper democracy which i believe would also be a great solution to capitalism, and by this term i mean that every citizen in the country decide on laws and all other government stuff but this is unlikely to work because of unemployment which will prevent the tech needed
for this get to everyone.

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"Life is interesting but the universe rules."
 33yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that ChrisD is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I think there should be two kinds of governments in the world. The first would be a broad, worldwide government that cannot be changed at all. It would only exist to protect and defend the most general and basic rights of people, like the freedom to not be enslaved and the freedom to not be killed. It would also police things like pollution which affects everybody. It is the broad government and so it only deals with very broad and general things that do not change very quickly.

The second type of government will be the local government. These will be numerous and diverse - as diverse as the wildlife and habitats of this planet. Everything but the most general of rights and laws are under its jurisdiction. If you don't like the local government you're living in, just leave for one that is more suitable for you.

Naturally some local governments will find a larger following than others and will need to expand. Well they can first try negotiating with their neighbors for land. If none are cooperative then they'll just have to build skyscrapers or underground dwellings to accommodate.

Everyone would be provided for with little to no excess bureaucracy.

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"The truth will set you on fire"
 33yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that ChrisD is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Actually to be honest I have no idea what the perfect government would be.

If I had full control of a big country like the US or Canada the first thing I would do is split it up (like how the states already are) and try out all the different ideologies and see what happens.

Oh and I'd set up a reality show for each one so that I'd make billions in revenue from it.

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"The truth will set you on fire"
 54yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that WolfLarsen is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Somebody said Nazi Germany was socialist. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

Nazi Germany was fascist. And it was the "communist" Soviet Union that smashed Nazi Germany. Adolf Hitler was actually aided by German capitalists, and German capitalists profited from Jewish slave labor.

Another thing: China is booming! And the capitalist world is in crisis. And if it wasn't for "socialist" China loaning money to the United States government the US government would go bankrupt.

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 27yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that James008 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Nazi Germany was actually socialist but it was only for the Nazi party to get elected and after they where elected they completely disregarded the socialist side. they needed to get the people on there side and most of the people are the middle and lower class which are the working classes and they used the power to the working class to get there fascist government in.

anyway socialist china ain't so great, they sacrifice the environment for production. they are the biggest polluters of the world!!!!

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"Life is interesting but the universe rules."
 35yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that mutnuaq is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
SOCIALISM-
1. A theory or policy of social organization which aims at or advocates the ownership and control of the means of production, capital, land, property, etc., by the community as a whole, and their administration or distribution in the interests of all.

Advocates the ownership of the means of production, capital, land and property by the community as a whole.

America is founded on an individuals right to own and produce what they want.

It's easy to see that socialism is the exact opposite of what America was founded on.

The main argument is" Well it's for the good of us all"

Main counter argument"Who are you to decide what's good for who? Who are you to decide who decides what is good for us all?"

It's really scary when schools are actually teaching students that socialism is what's best for all of us and our country. Kids are actually being indoctrinated in the public school system.

When I ask them why socialism? They invariably respond " It's best because then everyone gets something".

You'd think these middle class American kids who have a large house the family has 3 new cars all the food they can eat a 360 and ps3 were kids that are enduring a terrible drought and food storage like the kids in Africa.

"Everyone GETS something" I ask them next....From who? Who get's what from who?

Everyone gets their own house! Remember who said that? Bill Clinton said that in 1994 which led to millions of people getting loans for houses they couldn't afford which in turn led to the housing bubble that burst in 2007.

Basically what happened was one group said everyone should get something regardless of the economic implications so banks were pushed to lend out money to everyone whether it was economically feasible or not knowing they would default on them. The predators out there took advantage of a dumb Idea and a dumb population. That led to the recession in 2007.

The facts don't lie. The issue isn't with socialism or capitalism...it's with the corrupt scum on both sides indoctrinating our children in schools and churches across the nation.

We have liberals throwing out one crazy Idea and conservatives combating their ideas with an equally crazy idea on the other side of the spectrum.

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"334jui8"
 35yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that mutnuaq is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Wolf look at you go. Alluding capitalism with Nazi "slave labor".

1. The majority of Jewish wealth obtained by the Nazi's was stolen. That money went directly to their army efforts. 30% of their military came for seized Jewish businesses and savings.

1. (n.) Nazi
a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, which controlled Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler and advocated totalitarian government, territorial expansion, anti-Semitism, and Aryan supremacy, all these leading directly to World War II and the Holocaust.

Socialist Workers party.

Sorry wolf but you are severely misinformed.

So you act like Nazi's weren't socialists. You claim the Chinese are better than us because of their socialism. How about Russia? You don't think the U.S.S.R was socialist? Russian Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Here's a list of the only socialist in the world as of now. Get ready there are alot of good examples of what this guy thinks we should model ourselves after.

Democratic People's Republic of Korea <North Korea. Not south.>

Lao, Vietnam, China and Cuba.

5 left. All horrible horrible places.

Please show me an example of socialism working. I'm waiting......

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"334jui8"
 27yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that James008 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
ok so everyone can be free and produce what they want and own whatever they can afford. I have always believed every action has a consequence. and that if you do something you have to deal with the consequences, and that is where the wide divide came for me between me and capitalism, because basically capitalism so far is do what you want and don't deal with the consequences because someone else will.

therefore socialism is best for me because actions are based more on the consequences it will have(please note that i say this as if socialism was perfectly done and note the failures some countries have). so in the sense of certain consequences like let's say the environment actions can be controlled in a way to limit consequences of the actions.

but then again as i said before socialism is not perfect but is much easier to change because the mindset of the people is more flexible and not solid on themselves but rather for the betterment of everyone.

this can be a hard concept for you to absorb because i think you are one of those capitalist which is so solidly concentrated on yourself that you can't even see the consequences of your actions.

capitalism and socialism is both terms which is perfect in theory but fails to really achieve in practice, thats why we will never have a perfect world but rather a world which tries it's best to prevent it's own extinction. capitalism has worked well but it is now just not viable anymore because it can't sustain itself because it has to many consequences which is mostly left out and forgotten and never being solved.

so by the way i am a South African and is not subject to the American indoctrination.

oh and this has little to do with this subject but i feel i have to say that cop 17 is in South Africa this year i just hope this year progress will be made as it has never progressed over the last 16 years!!!

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"Life is interesting but the universe rules."
 35yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that mutnuaq is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Actually American indoctrination these days is very very left leaning. Ask any highschooler what form of government America should head towards and they invariably say Socialism. Asked why and they say that way everyone "gets something".

As for the consequences you speak of I agree entirely with what you were saying. That does not however mean that capitalism is at fault, merely the criminals that abuse the system for their own gain.

What you have a problem isn't any particular form of governance it's the abuse of those systems.

I have a task for you. Show me a single successful Socialist government that didn't do more bad than good. Once you realize there are none perhaps then we can go about deciding what is best for my country.

Capitalism isn't even clearly defined on Wikipedia but it does have some wonderful remarks by Marxists that would lead an ignorant person to believe that "capitalism" is a dirty word.

The reason nothing gets done is that if one person says look here socialism has only led to disaster the response is usually something having to do with atrocities that occurred within the capitalist system as apposed to occurring "because" of the system.

The reason capitalism isn't defined in wikipedia is clear. They just distort your ideas as to what it is.

Capitalism-
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.





So if you are anti capitalist you are against the individuals right to own trade and sell property for profit.

That's it. That's all capitalism is. The individuals right to their own money and property.

Socialism is the government and societies right to decide who gets what regardless of personal achievement.

ONE FINAL REMINDER

I do not think in anyway that the criminals controlling wallstreet have the right to do what they do in the name of capitalism.

They are predators who control the market in a way that benefits only them.

Once more the problem isn't with capitalism. It's with the criminals abusing our system.

So with this logic Americas free society is to blame for the Mafia or the Bloods or any other gang of scoundrels.

Is it the systems fault?

Or the criminals?

Answer these fundamental questions and maybe we can get somewhere....just keep in mind I do understand and agree with your frustration with the situation. I just know that it isn't capitalism to blame it's the criminals abusing it.

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"334jui8"
 27yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that James008 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
i understand that you blame the criminals, but let me ask you what kind of environment caused those people who where innocent children once, to become criminals?

it is the free market which caused them to have a view out of there own perspective that they are alone in all they do because as you say it is the individuals right to own,trade and sell property for profit in capitalism. individual is the word by which you define yourself when you see yourself as a person on your own and not part of society, causing you to think and act in ways that make you a criminal because you do not care about people because you see yourself as a thing on your own and not part of other humans. socialism causes a environment where you are part of human kind and not on your own and deferent from other people. we are all different but at our fundamental building blocks we are all the same and all part of one human race and not an individual. so socialism causes less criminals because caring for all of the human race is in your interest. but capitalism basically is that you are in your own interest and the other people can be manipulated and used to make you better but in the end it only causes more loneliness and the individual only becomes more criminal and more disconnected. we are creatures which are social and we need the approval of others and if you do not need the approval of others you are basically all ready in a state where criminalism is easy for you to do because you do not care about humans, you only care about yourself.

i do not have any country which i can refer to that socialism worked but as i have said before most socialism countries stick close to socialism in its infant form and they try not to change, but if you have the intension of making life better for all you need socialism because the mindset which is created can easily be changed and evolved to something better for all, not just yourself. socialism and capitalism is far from perfect, we all know that, but any person who can be reasoned with will see that evolution of governance to better for all is most easily
achieved through socialism.

if you do not see this then i am sorry but i currently have no better means of trying to let you see this. and i do not wish to insult you but in my view if you cannot grasp this that you have fallen into the category where capitalistic environment changed you in a way to where you do not want to change and evolve and you are worsening the human race. humans throughout history in prehistoric sense has always change much faster then other creatures, causing us to be on top of the food chain, and it was not the evolution of the body into a perfect fighting machine which put us on top but it was our brains, we are able to change to adapt, but in capitalism we are driven back to a stage where the human mind refuses to change and this will cause the downfall of the human race if we cannot change.

again i just say i do not want to insult you but i want to help you see the way i see so that you can compare it to how you see it so that you can choose.

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"Life is interesting but the universe rules."
 35yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that mutnuaq is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
You can't name one.

Because socialism always ends in failure. In a socialist society their is absolutely no incentive to work harder.

Capitalism doesn't breed crime. The inherent evil jealousy and greed bred into mankind is at fault.

With that being said the perfect utopian society would probably be socialist.

However......if the people in the society aren't perfect then neither will their society be.

Like I said "socialism" is just a banner used to consolidate power.

The Devil is in the details-

Russian
China
Nazi Germany
North Korea

They all used socialism to consolidate power.

It's a tool. It's used the same as religion.

A group says THIS is the right way to live. People rally to that cause and submit themselves to "the greater good" the abandon free will and original thought.

Why do you think socialism breeds the most dangerous countries?

Do you really want America to follow in Nazi Germany's foot steps?

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"334jui8"
 33yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that ChrisD is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
We've actually never had a true socialist government/country. All of the ones you named mutnuaq had leaders that lived in excessive luxury.

There is absolutely no motivation for anyone to work other than money? You can't think of any other motivations?

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"The truth will set you on fire"
Occupy Wall Street
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