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If you cannot love an ET god

User Thread
 81yrs • M •
rodgertutt is new to Captain Cynic and has less than 15 posts. New members have certain restrictions and must fill in CAPTCHAs to use various parts of the site.
If you cannot love an ET god
If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/ChurchFathers.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/DoctrineOfRetribution.htm
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote 'The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.' And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, 'I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it's what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.' That's why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I'm 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

Don't kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called 'free will' and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

'Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don't have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.'

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not 'free will' at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is 'love.'

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.htmla >

This next url sums up the end result of all three
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

Without God's sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of 'love-in-essence' includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.
html


You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Also see
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES

Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/inquire2.html
Also see
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.
Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I'm 70 years old.

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.htmla >

POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

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"BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH ET"
 38yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that nyrlathotep is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
I am assuming The god you are refering to is the creator and the absolute omni potent God. If God created all than God created both good and evil (pro and con). God is as evil as he is good. Take Satan for instance who is supposed to be the oposing force against Gods Plan. I have two points regarding satan, evil or con.

1. iF satan got his evil from any other source than god than That means that something existed that was not created by god before god created. So God would not be the creator of all things.

2. How could any one opose God. I know most argue that God gave us the guift of free will. This guift could easily be taken back by an all powerfull god. As long as god has the option to take away our free will it is not actually free. If the guift is irreversable than it not only suggests but proves that God is not all powerfull.


so if you want a god thats a good God stick to jesus christ or some other diety But if THE creator exists than the creator is biased and likely impersonel. I think that it is presumptious of us to assume that the creator of this vast universe is more concerned about us than any thing else. The very idea of god becomming angry, happy and jealous is kindof an insult to the idea of the perfect all powerfull god who is the creator sustainer and destroyer of all things. I hope you fellows have got a fraction of knowledge out of this reply in exchange for some of the gems you have revealed to me.

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"i have nothing original to say."
 57yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that Tracer165 is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
http://www.captaincynic.com/thread/82067/if-you-cannot-love-an-et-god.ht
m


I can not believe you actually read the Bible and come to the conclusions that you do.
First the Bible teaches neither 'Universal salvation' nor does it teach eternal torment. If your in a church that teaches such things then you're in the wrong church.
Secondly, the belief of the church of the first 500 years did not teach this or believe this. You only have to read Acts to see that. If 'Universal Salvation' was true then why send anyone into all the world to teach. Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die and are rewarded with eternal salvation for our crimes of our life here on earth. The death of Christ means nothing. The fact of the mater is that if you do not accept Christ then as He said, you shall die in your sins. John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Again we read, Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Notice Paul here writes that the 'wages' or reward of, sin is death not eternal life, Notice too that if one was to live on in torment then they would not experience the wages of sin which is death, a ceasing to exists. Notice too that in the beginning, God told Adam and Eve the same thing but lets look at the first lie told by Satan, Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: But what did God say, Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Does anyone have immortality now?
1Tm:6:14: That thou keep this commandment ..., until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Tm:6:16: Who only hath immortality,
As far as eternal torment, no one lives on suffering through out eternity. This is just a lie of Satan to corrupt the image of God. Often we see God the father as this stern judge looking down on us just waiting for us to step out of line but Christ tells us that he is the same as His father. Doesn't the Bible tell us that God is love? Does it make much sense that a God of love would take the creatures he has created and punish them through out all eternity for the sins of a short life time? The truth of the matter is that the lost will be destroyed. That is why the Bible calls this work of God His strange act. Isaiah 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. It is a strange act for a God of love to destroy the creatures He in love has created. Remember the famous verse of John 3:16? For God (the Father) so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
To think that the saved could be void of all compassion for their lost loved ones who would be in torment while celebrating the rewards of salvation is hard to imagine.
The bible tells us plainly what we be the fate of the lost.
Isaiah 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Satan is the root the lost are his branches. Just as Jesus is the vine and the saved are his branches.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Ezekiel 28:16-19
Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this , saith the LORD of hosts.
They shall be ashes because they shall be burned up.
The words of Peter agree with this
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 2 Peter 3:9-12

Its hard to put so much into such a page as this, believe me I could go on for a LONG time proving from the Bible these view points.
Again I saw that God does not punish anyone forever nor are all saved. By the way in Revelations where it says, Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. This 'forever and ever' in the greek is for eons and eons. Which is an undetermined length of time. For some they will be consumed as in an instant, for others they may burn for much longer. The last to go out will be Satan.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: (This is where the thrown of God is)
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house (graves) of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword,(the word of God) that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcass trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Isaiah 14:12-20
Study the sanctuary and you will see the end of the lost, the destruction of the Satan and the reward of the saved as David said,
16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me;
17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. Psalms 73:16-17 I truly hope this is helpful.

As far as the other entry, God did create good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. God gives all free will to chose for themselves their destiny. He created Satan but he created Satan for good but Satan chose to walk contrary to God. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so : thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Ezekiel 28:13-15
As far as God not being all powerful because He chooses not to 'take back' the gift of free will, I fail to see how you come to that conclusion. It is an act of love not power. You are missing the point completely.
As far as His emotions go, anger, jealousy and happiness go, again I point you to the Bible, Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. We have those same emotions because we are created after His image. He has them and so do we. It is not unreasonable to think that a loving God would have pleasure in watching those He loves obey and do right. It is also not unreasonable to think that the same loving God would be angry when we do wrong. If someone was to wrong you, would you not be angry? And if someone was to do something good for you would you not be happy? As far as the jealousy thing goes I see many people get caught up on that. They see it as we exercise it but it is not the same way with God, His jealously centers around the good of us where as our jealousy centers around our own self center-ness.
The said truth is man can never rise above their own conception of what God is, until we would spend the time in a prayerful study of His word we can never know Him or know about Him.

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 38yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that nyrlathotep is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
As far as the other entry, God did create good and evil. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. God gives all free will to chose for themselves their destiny. He created Satan but he created Satan for good but Satan chose to walk contrary to God.


this is the one of the paradox's of the god concept and I really do not feel as though i am missing any point. define freedom
here is the dictionary term for freedom just so we do not get confused on this key point

noun 1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.


I would like you to read number 2 it refers to the state of being free as being exempt from regulation. The Freedom to chose you say is gods guift of love and he will never take it back because he loves you, me, and every one here. But this "freedom to choose is regulated by gods love" If god for any reason decides not to love us any more he may take our freedom away. As for the idea of any thing or any one walking contrary to god is an impossablility. God is literaraly every thing if it exists any thing created out of god would have to come from god itself. If it came from any thing other than god than god did not actually create it but only molding it from existing matter.
Seing as though god is literaraly every thing it is again impossible to walk contrary to god. This brings to mind another parodox "If God exists can God create a rock so heavy that it couldnt lift the rock?" If you will answer this paradox in a satisfactory way I will start caring about weather god exists or not. I am not trying to bash your religion. belief in god isnt necasarely a bad thing onless of course you worship Kali (uuuughhh) its just that I would like to see the christian culture spend more time preaching the virtues of good works, turning the other cheeck, and treating its neighbors as it would have its neighbors treat it. I still say despite the fact that I am not a christian that The basic ethical elements of the teachings of the new testament are beautifull and make sense. If every one behaved more like jesus and stopped trying to prove his existance christianity could turn into a religion worth joining.

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"i have nothing original to say."
 38yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that nyrlathotep is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Oh and as for the emotional god of the old testament............
Ive often heard it suggested even by christian scholars that emotions are imperfect and that love is the only perfect emotion. I believe when the bible describes love it suggests that love is not jealous or selfish. this is out of the new testament. the old testament seems to describe a god given to temper tantrums. The old testament even makes reference to god being sorry for an act of destruction example noahs ark.
anger is an emotion that is caused by an inability to control. If god experiences anger than it shows a loss of control on its part.

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"i have nothing original to say."
If you cannot love an ET god
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