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Paul - The 13th apostle who never met Jesus Condemns Homosexuality
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2203 Posts / 65M
     :   49yrs   :  
okcitykid

Paul - The 13th apostle who never met Jesus Condemns Homosexuality [+ favourites]

quote:
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.


This is called the word of God.

I might not have this completely right, if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

Paul was a Roman officer whose job it was to hunt down Christians and slay them or arrest and imprison them. He very much believed in his job thinking this to be an act of righteousness. On his way to do this, he saw a vision and was blinded and Jesus spoke with him. Paul reveals in later letters that he was taught a great many things not revealed to others. He is introduced to the other apostles and I'm really not sure how Paul ever becomes one of them. In acts, Paul has a disagreement with one of the other apostles so he goes his separate way. From then on it is claimed that he is the apostle to the gentiles and there is now a split in the church. You have the Jewish church of the law and you have Paul's church to the gentiles without the law.

I have this question. Why doesn't anybody question Paul's claims. If someone comes along and says I saw Jesus who revealed a great many things to me and I am to be your leader - do we just say - okay?

Reading the gospels of Jesus and the letters of Paul - the two do not sound the same.

Jesus says forgive them for they know not what they do as he is being crucified and Paul says God turns them into homosexuals and condemns them because they refused to believe in Jesus. What is worse, not believing in him or crucifying him. Maybe I'm missing something - but it just doesn't sound to me like they are both on the same page.

But okay - there are great spiritual minds who believe in Paul - so I will just simply explain that in the natural world, when a species overpopulates, it turns to homosexuality. In Al Gores movie you see a graph that clearly shows a population explosion within the last hundred years and growing. So according to what I know about nature, you will have homosexuality - people who prefer masturbation. Men who don't want children and women who don't want to be mothers, and this is natural, and if it's natural, according to Paul, it's okay.

So don't "kick against the pricks" (Acts 26:14 King James Version). Let nature have its way, it's God's design.


"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

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2841 Posts / 93M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

Beautiful... but Okcitykid, you should never claim to be a Christian, because you aren't.

You just like the teachings of enlightened people.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

167 Posts / 31M
     :   26yrs   :  
CodeWarrior

quote:
Paul was a Roman officer whose job it was to hunt down Christians and slay them or arrest and imprison them.


No Paul was a roman citizen of Jewish blood who especially asked the Jewish authorities for special permission to persecute Christians.

quote:
He is introduced to the other apostles and I'm really not sure how Paul ever becomes one of them.


The term apostle is simply Greek for a sent individual. As one might send out an ambassador, spy or soldier on a special mission. It is not used exclusively of the 12 and Paul. Several other apostles are mentioned in the bible and the term is generally thought to refer to a certainty spiritual calling or vocation. Whether the 12 apostles held any special status above other apostles or what extra aspect this status might confer is a grey area of scripture.

quote:
Paul has a disagreement with one of the other apostles so he goes his separate way. From then on it is claimed that he is the apostle to the gentiles and there is now a split in the church.


It was agreed Paul would concentrate on preaching to gentiles before he ever confronted peter and there is no evidence that there was lasting enmity between the 2 over the incident.

quote:
Jesus says forgive them for they know not what they do as he is being crucified and Paul says God turns them into homosexuals and condemns them because they refused to believe in Jesus.


a) the context of the verse suggests he is referring to historical idolatry such as that practised by Egyptians as contrasted to the monotheism as practiced by jethro or melchizadek. Most likely Sodom and Gomorra are in his mind.
b) He didn't say god turned them in to homosexuals but that he gave them over to it. The act is passive. Just as an ambassador might turn you over for extradition knowing you would be tortured so god, seeing that the people rejected him with idolatry, allowed them to taken by homosexuality.

quote:
Reading the gospels of Jesus and the letters of Paul - the two do not sound the same.


As a writer Paul is not very good. Peter says as much (nearly) in his epistle referring to his writings as hard to understand and warning of those who misconstrue them for their own purposes. Paul writes in such a way that he leaves a great deal to be understood out of the readers context. He tends to make intellectual jumps that would have seemed quite natural to those who sheared his culture yet are some what befalling and hard to follow for those who don't. I think the Pauline epistles are probably the hardest part of scripture to interpret.

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2841 Posts / 93M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

I think it's clear you don't dissagree with what Okcitykid's conclusions are... and so whether they be "difficult" to interpret as you stated, they appear to not have much in common with Jesus's teachings and therefore the true likeness of "Christ"ianity.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

167 Posts / 31M
     :   26yrs   :  
CodeWarrior

I'm afraid I disagree. Paul often comes off as very authoritarian and judgmental but clear reading of his epistles shows he definitely believed in gods mercy on sinners and gods desire to forgive sins and reform sinners. Equally Jesus said it is better to gouge out your eye or cut off you hand than allow the temptation of a sight or touch to rule your life. To the women caught in adultery he offers both mercy and redemption as he says go and sin no more. I do not think you can argue Jesus, who condemned adultery and divorce, who stated that the old testament law was fulfilled by his grace not nullified by it, would endorse homosexuality. Nor is it fair to argue Paul, who always preached salvation by faith, was suggesting homosexuality was an unforgivable sin or that homosexuals were irredeemable or to be hated.

Paul is essentially preaching the same thing as Jesus it's just he comes off like prick when he says it because of the way he says it.

1792 Posts / 65M
     :   56yrs   :  
cturtle

Well, I lost the first statements (time I posted) so I will try again.
Not to disagrre with you, CodeWarrior. Your statements are an excellent & informative treatise.

quote:
Paul is essentially preaching the same thing as Jesus it's just he comes off like prick when he says it because of the way he says it.
By his own words, Paul, he was (is) a pharisee's pharisee. Which is a probable cause or the ‘thorn of the flesh’ which tended to affect his teachings.
quote:
No Paul was a roman citizen of Jewish blood who especially asked the Jewish authorities for special permission to persecute Christians.
Saul of Tarsus, was a Jew, who had bought Roman citizenship for his own purposes. That as Paul the Apostle of Christ used to intercede Roman authority over the Jewish authority which his (Saul => Paul) captures desired.
quote:
The term apostle is simply Greek for a sent individual. As one might send out an ambassador, spy or soldier on a special mission. It is not used exclusively of the 12 and Paul. Several other apostles are mentioned in the bible and the term is generally thought to refer to a certainty spiritual calling or vocation. Whether the 12 apostles held any special status above other apostles or what extra aspect this status might confer is a grey area of scripture.
Well, the teaching of Timothy had converted some to Christ but they did not receive spiritual gifts till the apostles’ layed hands on them, Simon the socerer, the converts of the disciples of John, etc tend to support that the (12) Apostles did seem to have greater authority of the spiritual nature than most disciples?


"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."
[  Edited by cturtle at   ]

Paul - The 13th apostle who never met Jesus Condemns Homosexuality
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