What's Worth Dying For?

Actually no. I am responding from the meaning of innocence in the context of responsibility. We each are part of the determinants in which we form and react to our emotions. To wit, we are always responsible from that perspective. I think what gets in the way when discussing emotions and the such is the insinuation of purpose or reason. Lets leave that out for now.

(I am going to respond to both posts, so I apologize Aw for speaking of you in third person )

Aw's anecdote is a good example to try to clarify. He was clearly expressing his emotion from his perspective of the relationship. He was reacting to his feeling for her. I think in reality he has more to worry about than feeling bad about any hurting. Each have inward feelings they are responding to, to him its his love for her. For her, his admission of love prompted the second to what she is really reacting to and not him directly. That is what he should actually be more concerned about. There is where it can probably be fixed as well. When the balance becomes equal on the present person and relationship, I bet she will react different the next time. Might strenthen the longevity too.

Was either reaction incorrect, no. They could only react to what they each were prompted to at that moment. When we add the value of purpose or meaning to something, that is when the "trouble" usually starts.That presumed placement of purose or intent can only be done once something has been completed. I should add that I dont see any of us "living" in the present, all things we do are reactions to things we did, even if its only fractions of a second ago. I see no definitive value of purpose something can take, hence nothing is incorrect or nothing is correct. But, once that selection is made that becomes a bound determinant in and of itself until future causes change it, including its value.

I don't fully understand your point. If he was able to empathize adeqautely and therefore "love" her in a manner that would actually help her, would that be innocent?

Perhaps you should define innocence, exactly why you think it doesn't exist, and then explain why its nonexistence affects whether you would sacrifice yourself for someone else.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

"Was either reaction incorrect, no. They could only react to what they each were prompted to at that moment. When we add the value of purpose or meaning to something, that is when the "trouble" usually starts.That presumed placement of purose or intent can only be done once something has been completed. I should add that I dont see any of us "living" in the present, all things we do are reactions to things we did, even if its only fractions of a second ago. I see no definitive value of purpose something can take, hence nothing is incorrect or nothing is correct. But, once that selection is made that becomes a bound determinant in and of itself until future causes change it, including its value."

This means that you choose to nto let anything be worth your own life.

once that selection is made...

Right there. You have chosen your own life to be worth mroe than anything else, and you will not change it. Your unwillingness to change is the patheticness I was talking about. Not that you are unwilling to change, but the reason behind it, that I find pathetic. At least the reasons that I see, and they may be wrong.

As far as I can tell, you are scared of dying and therefor allow that fear to control your emotions. When something like fear controls your emotions, the emotions you take are less "true". So you find yourself worth more, not because you are honestly just that badass, but because you are afraid of dying, and have chosen a perception that makes you believe you are so badassm rather than actually beleiveing that.

You said you enjoy thinking that way, and the reason why you enjoy thinking that way is because you do not like to face your fears. Facing your fears would enevitably change your perception, and you are pathetic because you are too scared to try otherwise.

The reason why you think that love, and other things, are not worth dying for, is because you fear.

That is why you are pathetic.

Please point out any fallicies in my logic, I will not yell at you and call you an idiot if you do, as long as you do it in an open-minded fashion.

"Wht cry for those that often cry? Instead, help them smile, and smile for those that smile."

My Mother and Brother are worth dying for.

But I would only die for them if it was certain that something would be gained in place of my life.

For example, if someone made me decide who to live out of myself or my Brother, I'd choose my Brother but only if it was certain that he would remain unharmed and alive.

But then again, how could I be certain that something is gained if I am dead?

"Dont drink the water"

Is something that can not exist without our giving it existence such as worth, a determinant to react to with dying when both the sentiment and the feeling requires our own consciousness? We are not innocent, because every thought or emotion we posess and act on has only cognitive existence. It can not exist outside of our own lives, it is not an independant agent.

Should we play such head games with ourselves and dangle our own ultimate destiny to prove our convictions? Really, what is more pathetic; a belief that one's death could have meaning when there can be no proof assessed by the desceased it was or was not in vain, or, to accept that death has no meaning or purpose? This has nothing to do with fear of dying, its understanding that finality of death should be respected more when we attempt to make decisions upon things we "think" we have control over.

I can not see how any of my previous remarks is suggestive that I am evading any emotions or fears. I simply recognize that feelings are not the supreme arbitor of reality and excersise them with caution.

I think a better question might be who would be willing to sacrifice their life in the living to make someone better off? To put aside all of one's goals and interests to improve the life of another. Would we like the results?

Something worth dying for... Family? Well, if you died for you're family, you would be inadvertently creating a negative stress in their lives and depending on who they are as individuals, do more harm than good. By saying you would die for your family, you are ultimately satisfying a selfish need. By this, I suppose I am saying that any solitary situation can be twisted into an intricate web of selfishness which I wont get into generally because its off topic. This selfish need specifically would be for you not to gain exposure to the death of one you 'love'. This obviously, with the exception of some sociopaths (assuming they truly are lacking all human emotion) would trigger stress as you realise that your life would be changed; thus, you realise this conciously (or deny it conciously) and you wouldn't have to deal with that emotional stress if you were the one not there. So you would innocently (loosely using the term) heap it onto anothers shoulders.. So, basically, family would not be something you should die for, unless you could be sure that the person in question is truly going to benefit, which you never be.

For love: Again, I'd like to say that to die would be to inflict a great injury on the one you love... perhaps more so than your own family because that person has a more intimate glance at you as a person and likely spends more time with you than your family by the time you died. Just the thought that their loved one would be alive if they hadnt been in their life to begin with would be a torment that would resonate in their thoughts for years... in the best case scenerio, they get over the death but when moved on to another, find themselves wondering how anyone could love them as much as the other who gave their life. So as to be somewhat consistent, this is assuming the person who lives doesnt realise the selfish intentions of the one who died, and innocently believes it to be an act of selflessness (which I haven't truly experienced hypothetically or in real life and would love someone to give me a good example that I can't shoot down). I think I should stop there and finish up with the fact that I believe that ultimately it will be ones self they will die for, whether they are innocent to that fact or not. This is my current view, but it is flexible and the reason I came here was to get other opinions... a fresh outlook.

If I wanted to go a little bit farther, I might venture to say that to die for your biggest competition or rival might be the ultimate thing to do. Basically, if you die, theres no one to compete with to the same level (assuming you are both the most significant figures) and if this happens they will be happy for a while. But, after the thrill of winning subsides, they will realise they have built their entire existance in that respect to beating the other. (I'm talking about competetiveness, so lets assume its a quality both individuals have) In the end, they will realise the frivilties of what the have accomplished as there is nothing to do but sit there on top, and wait until you have to get off. I'll stop now before I screw myself up while trying to make myself clear.

"Only that in you which is me can hear what I'm saying."

Forgive me if I'm repeating my self but I don't have time to re read the whole thread. I recall the story of one church man who'd been interned in a nazi death camp. One day they sentenced 10 random men to die in an airless pit. He volunteered to die in the place of 1 of them. He believed that there was something more precious at stake than temporary life that being eternal salvation. Both of the man who's place he took and the other 9 he could witness to. Indeed history records that as they were locked in that pit slowly running out of air the sound of singing could be heard emanating from mound. For those who believe in an afterlife the question of what is worth dying for is bound up with the question of divine purpose and the effect of their death from the perspective of eternity.

Most people hear talk about what temporary good others might derive from there death but this is to assume death is always the end. For those who have finished their business on earth and look forward to place in heaven death is not to be seen as terrible fate. On the other hand for a man with a destiny and much still left to do on earth death is a considerable sacrifice even with the assurance of heavenly rest. He must weigh the good his death may buy against the good he believes he could do on earth. Of course from a theological point of view man can never be absolutely certain of the result apart from god which is why most who chose martyrdom do so with specific guidance.

Lol I've just been reading a lot of bios with stories of self sacrifice in.

the most important from all this world is God love. coz if u lost it u lost everything, or even if u have evrything u lost urself, so wuts good after that to live in this world...nothing is good
im not relegious by the way but just trying to enhance week point to be accepted by God

"he who has many friend has no friend to spare, but he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere"

i dont believe you should die for a religion cos it cant be a very ongoing religion if youare being told you have to sacrifice (sp) yourself for it. but i do believe in dying for love so if it is a love for your god then you're more then welcome to do it. i know i would die for my love, im very very big on self harming i would never EVER do it but if for some reason he died [and please dont tell me not to] i would want to die to, i actually would kill myself, i wouldnt want to live in a world without him, i know you're probably think im crazy saying this cos im young and havent experienced much of life but i believe that i will spend my life with him, i will do those experiences with him and if i didnt it just wouldnt feel the same, it wouldnt, ive been told (not just buy friends) that i have a very mature mind for my age and whether or not you believe me it doesnt matter because youve never seen me talk or walk or do what i do so you cant really say im not mature even though im 15, love is a very powerful thing and i know with my love it is true love so i would do anything for him. and now your probably expecting me to say i would do the same for the love of my family...wrong. lets just say hate is a strong word but i disslike my family, the only ones i would care about really and truely enough to not get over is my nan and grandad they have been better family to me then my mum or brother alone. meh... i dunno...*shrugs*
toodles

"Why kill the bumblebee when your the pain in the ass?"

Well, the answer is supposed to be the good of the nation...that is if you're a deserter like GWB.
There is only one thing worth dying for: to relieve the pain of a terminal illness.
I don't need to have my self or my family put through the stress of 'Why doesn't God take him now?'. God has better things to do than to look down and take care of me...he has proven that over the past 62 years...and I respect that...That also means that I am the one that has to look out for me...even He wouldn't penalize that.

"Popular dissidents are merely pacifiers given to us by the Government to keep us in line and thinking someone is making a ruckuss."

your cool!! can i call you gramps? lol

"Why kill the bumblebee when your the pain in the ass?"

You guys are all missing the point of this thread. What you are all unconsciously trying to do is price the human life. A life is something we all own, we all have one of. There is no way to price two entities precisely unless the two entities are converted to number values. Even then, the number values are determined by the priorities they are relative to. For instance, if money is used as a priority, a life is valued by how much money the life accumulated. If you prioritize generosity, a life's value will be determined by how much they gave to others. There can be many priorities, though, that are taken into consideration when pricing the human life. All of your answers reflect you're priorities, it really tells a lot about what each of you prioritize, or at least claim to prioritize.

"I try my best to be just like I am but everybody wants you to be just like them."

I would only die for 1 or maybe 3 of my closest friends. Some ideals i would die for, but those are very few. I think that dying for something isnt the way to go, unless you are truly into it.