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I won't be contributing to the war of graphs again, this has been done. What we've found here at this site is that contradictory statistics can be found from equally federal and or credible sources.
What I would like to know, is how it is rationalized that a exponential increase in defense spending doesn't affect the debt?
Unemployment rates aren't as much the issue yet in terms of jobs, thanks to policies before Bush but exacerbated by him most jobs worth a shit are either shipped over seas or have imported labor, not always legal labor either.
Wages are down, hours are cut, benefits are becoming a thing of the past as Wal-Mart remains the model for ruthless corporate efficiency.
What I hear from the right is that they don't understand that yes, there is a economic boom of a sort happening, big corporations are raking in dough by cutting benefits, hours, tenured laborers, wages etc. But this all at the detrement of the middle class.
And equally missed and important is inflation and the devaluation of the dollar. Meaning that sure, there is more american dollars being tossed around, not in the hands of the middle class still, but these american dollars today aren't worth shit.
Regardless of happy horseshit about a great economy, we are on the brink of a great depression. Our dollar is worth dirt and the world is ditching it. And they have good reason to.
I haven't heard anything of interest about crime other than the US imprisons the highest percentage of its citizens in the world and that private prisons are springing up everywhere, and that Bushes make tons off of it.
And I don't give a rats ass about abortion rates.
As for who's killing who in Iraq, I have to admit, that link is impressive, however, I don't see where you get the notion that it backs up your claims rather than doing just the opposite.
I took some time looking over that, much is highly ambiguous, "bodies found shot dead". Most instances of gunfire are attributed to one source or another. But what was so amusing and confusing given your use of it as a source was its contention that the US and US formed Health ministries lied constantly about civilian casualties and that numbers were deflated while they would openly challenge local counts even making claims that they eventually back away from that the locals counts were inflated. Repeatedly accounting how in particular in Falluja majorities of bodies were women, children, and elderly males.
I bet you want me to cite your source for you so as to provide proof.
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Logical reasoning for this is most attacks are not against Americans, they are against Iraqis trying to live a Democratic life. So how are they due our presence? It is our INFLUENCE on Iraqis that they are upset about. This is their war on Democracy. It is time to wake up to the fact that the Iraqis are Killing for Power and Control.
This is a posistion only supportable by half truths that do exist. But its the rest of the story that changes the context.
Why would Iraqis be fighting eachother and why would they be upset about our influence?
Though you are right to contend that there are indeed power struggles taking place you are forgetting the biggest force fighting for control of power in the region, us.
You make assertions as to how things would play out if we were not there, but cannot adequately do so since we have not not been there for decades even centuries when lumped with allied or general western influence.
You make analogies of if we were invaded would we attack our neighbor, but you do not add to the equation that if Iraq or someone invaded us and your neighbor took up arms in support of this foreign army as they perhaps designated you an aid to terror, then what?
I hear from the left and right accusations of treachery and traitors pondering whether eachother should be treated as terrorists or not. So I don't think your analogy holds up too well.
And much more importantly, I can almost guarantee that you are not accounting for our covert activities as well as what local and foreign forces we hire, train, or influence to do our bidding, in multiple directions within and around Iraq.
You express ideological opposition to "crazy" people gaining wmd's and threatening neighbors and harboring terrorists or protecting others that do. All things the US is guilty of ten fold, though you don't seem to concerned or aware of this. You speak as if we haven't invaded multiple countries under declaration of self righteous protection of democracy, threatening to use nukes on iran while protecting pakistan with its military dictatorship harboring terrorists and threating to nuke india in their back and forth squabble.
Apparently you have also missed the multiple reports of our hiring of known terrorists to operate in both Iraq and Iran and god only knows where all else. Some were even accompanied by US assurance that they had denounced their allegiance to terrorism, because when they suicide bomb for the US, its apparently not terrorism.
But that's ok, because since I don't cite every source of this, for the tenth time on this forum (a point you have yet to get or I have yet to properly articulate), I'm just making it all up, and or it was never credible to begin with.
A fight against democracy? How about a fight against one of the most corrupt and pervasive forces on the planet.
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3,500 us soldiers died as a result of this 4 year war.
I would love to know how you verify numbers from the most secretive and deceptive government possibly ever to have existed in this country. Offhand, on this particular issue I heard tell, yep, not declaring as fact that which others say just because they say so, that there are all sorts of fun factors that fuck this number up. Things such as, if a soldier dies in a helicopter inches off the ground, not counted, or in hospitals outside of iraq etc. But this number is definitely displaced by factors such as survivability over previous conflicts due to medical achievements etc.
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Most of you reading this will probably ignore me and assume that someone manipulated those studies. For the most part those are based on or directly from Federal studies. When in fact YOU are the ones being lied to by YOUR sources. Your sources are strictly based an speculation and manipulation. They are from Special interest sites. Sites and sources with agendas.
Do you realize how much of this can be pointed right back at you? Federal studies are indeed often proven manipulated because of special interests and to assert that a federal policy maker and their studies don't have agendas is just silly.
This is not to say all your studies are totally incorrect, not at all, especially those not pertaining to the war, I'm taking particular issue with you comparing data with that which is from the war because of the laughability of credibility on that issue.
I'm sorry, but this president has been accused and proven to buy off more people to produce more propaganda than perhaps any other.
They have scientists coming out in droves against this, some of these scandals even made main stream press, like the no child left behind pay offs, fake news stories supporting policies on health care, not to mention war propaganda.
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When in fact YOU are the ones being lied to by YOUR sources.
Who are my, or our, sources? Who are yours which I do not claim to know as you point out I do not?
But sure, tons of bad stuff happening here too...
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You guys are complaining about Iraq and worrying about Iraq would you should worry about what is going on in your own backyards. America has real problems, perhaps it’s time to focus on them.
Indeed, and one of the biggest things to deal with first is our institutionalized corruption and the resultant "wars" we are fighting both abroad and at home creating much of the havoc you are so concerned with.
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The Big Lie Theory. Who used it? Adolf Hitler did about the Jews. And now people are using it against American and Bush. Sure say Bush is using it against Iraq. He isn’t. It isn’t broadcasted EVERYWHERE. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie Lemme know if that looks familiar. Notice where it was Hilter saying Jews were using that technique. Remember this before Pulling an Adolf Hitler and passing the same accusation onto the bush administration.
This is gold right here. Holy shit man, do you even realize what you've done here? Hitler was the one in power promoting his big lies, even accusing those HE was attacking as promoting the big lie to undermind him.
Bush is promoting big lies against those whom he is attacking, claiming that they are promoting big lies to undermind him.
But you would be right to argue that there is another faction involved here at home promoting big lies as well to undermind bush, the problem here is, the big lies aren't that Bush is corrupt, but that those who are claiming to want to save us from him are not.
Remeber this before Pulling a Nazi German and passing the same accusation onto those who would try to stand up to tyranny.
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Lets see…who’s lie is HUGE and whos lie is EVERYWHERE. You cannot go online for 10 minutes without and ANTI BUSH advertisement. Anti Bush is ALL OVER the media EVERYWHERE.
Bullshit. Yes, it is everywhere online, not everywhere in the media. Online is still, though this is changing, the cumulative voice of the people unfiltered. Mainstream media, even those most accused of left wing bias are nowhere near the anti bush proponents that you proclaim, with the obvious minority exceptions, which can be said in reverse for the net, and mainstream media is by no means any where near the voice of the people.
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No one WANTS war.
Bullshit again, those who make rediculous amounts of money from it do. You would do well to look into the struggles of good patriots against war profiteers in this country. This is where you will learn of Bush history as well.
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He makes direct statements and leaves it at that. Is his message of war flooded by the media?
Um, yes, constantly.
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Sometimes he is wrong but he isn’t outright Lieing. He may pass Lies off as truth, however he himself was lied to about the WOMD. EVERYONE believed the lies why is he the only one to blame? That as far as I can tell was the only thing he said that wasn’t proved to be true
Oh? Why did both Condi Rice and Colin Powell the of and before 9/11 say Saddam was no threat to us or his neighbors unable to reconstruct any means of wmd or projectable force?
Why did the Downing street memo say the US was fixing its policy around the war? As well as being corroborated by intelligence officers?
How about the link between Saddam and Osama?
How about "MIssion Accomplished"?
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Also Lets be fair and agree Saddam Insane Gave us very good reason to believe he had something to Hide.(Which he probably moved them before we got there considering he never let the UN in to inspect until he had already emptied the sites.) Of course we were forced to take action when he wouldn’t cooperate. I mean how long have we asked him to play ball? Years and Years and Years, that isn’t smart to do to a country that was just attacked by Middle Eastern Terrorists. Everyone will agree that’s just plain stupid to tempt a nation that was just attacked. IF he had nothing to hide then why hide? The cause was still there to attack.
How about Scott Ritter, you know, the UN weapons inspector who says your full of shit, because the UN generally had the access it needed and primarily ran into problems because the US was infesting the UN team with CIA against the agreement and using the intell to bomb Iraq under Clinton almost killing UN weapons inspectors as well?
95% of all the weapons that we helped provide them were found and destroyed, most of the rest was degraded and useless, and the contention of his ability to rebuild without our knowledge or in secrecy proved patently false due to the ability to detect such substances, radiation etc in ways that you have probably never heard of, me as well.
Again you cite a one sided propagandistic posistion ignoring all contested information, unless of course you are simply unaware which isn't your fault, completely. Not that I'm saying I am not ignorant of many things, I'm just bringing up things that it would appear that you may not know, or perhaps you have good evidence against and will share for mutual benefit.
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You say I am wrong you say you are right. You have “Theories” and hearsay. You have emotional philosophical garbage instead of hard evidence or logical thinking. Your not trying to understand motives or reasoning for carrying out any acts made by anyone. You are merely regurgitating Well circulated Propaganda.
I have no doubt that there is information that I cross and reference that is indeed propaganda and misinformation, I hold a firm conviction that we cannot verify fact regardless of source, charts, or presumed credibility, this is why I claim to seek the truth rather than have it. One day you may learn to do the same.
As it stands I will direct your above quote right back at you, because regardless of whether you are aware of it or not, you are guilty of your own accusations.
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That is the whole Basis on why you say Bush is an idiot.
I didn't say bush was an idiot, nor do I think this, I think he is a criminal.
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No actually I gave you very detailed reasoning why I feel that is his demeanor
And it is a detailed description of what you want it to mean.
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You must explain to me why he IS a bad man
Again, if he is guilty of even a little of what he is accused and evidenced to have done, then there you go.
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Really how would you know what I have and have not read or seen?
I was referring to my presented "evidence" and sourced material within this forum, you have made semi legitamite complaints of more recent postings of videos, this is where I have progressed after years of posting charts and articles and documents etc that you appear to not have read, I make no claim of knowledge of your readings.
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The war wasn’t just about the WOMD it was Saddam’s whole Regime and unlawful dictation of his people and the middle east.
So in other words we are in need of invading most countries on the planet including our own, sensible.
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“W” had my vote because Kerry was actually an Idiot. Had no views of his own. And would have actually destroyed this country in a time of war.
Man, those libs must have gotten to you with all that name calling, its infected you.
I feel anyone is an idiot who buys into the charade that is our bought and paid for election process and the scripted bull shit they spew. Those two are cousins multiple times over as well as secret society buddies so mired in big money corruption and scandal they might as well be brothers.
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“And untill you look into him and his family you will probably continue to believe this. “
I have, His bro was our governer.(who sucked) It isn’t really relevant anyways.
Wow, that was deep. Just as inconsequential as who funded 9/11 as surmized by the "independant" 9/11 commission eh?
So if the Bush family history contains Nazism, corporatism, cronyism, war profiteering, election rigging, child sex, and just as much lies and deciet and god knows what else, that wouldn't matter? Than what are you so upset about Saddam and other Hitler types for.
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Well we know who didn’t make these lies. It wasn’t Bush.. If you think not PROVE it was.
How do you know that? What PROOF do you have?
I've seen the plan that is currently in place that depicts most true intentions of these invasions, its all in the PNAC documents written by half of Bush's administration, including his bro. They just needed that new pearl harbor to get it all moving.
But even they appear almost undermined by Bush's direction towards the complete death of america as he pushes towards his father's dream of a new world order. You are aware that he has done far more than just make bad decisions about the border right? He's trying to get rid of them all together. The SPP is the first step there.
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One man is actually in charge of every last detail? Hmmm that’s odd.
How did you get that from me stating that not all blame was on one person?
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Too bad this government was formed in a way that no one man had all the power.
For one, I specifically meant responsible for the acts of himself and his administration, not congress or other governing bodies.
Secondly, Bush has done the most to undo those very restrictions you note. There has been more centralizing of power and destruction of the constitution under this president than any as well.
My, won't you be shocked when this promised next attack that all these years of defense building, domestic liberty crackdowns, and war are supposed to protect us but apparently won't, comes to pass and all the new legislation that isn't as open and isn't already enacted becomes so.
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“Of course you are debating the degree, because that would undermine your entire argument“.
You are twisting the argument either intentionally or out of ignorance.
Actually, I meant to say aren't.
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Read my post I’m not a right winger. I am a free thinker.
Didn't say you were, said you leaned to right wing bias, as you yourself said in another thread as well as demonstrated numerous times.
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People use the war that is already going to happen to Gain things for themselves.Not start them.
What war was already going to happen? Bush chose to invade Iraq, he started it.
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Don’t you know? I’m not gonna do your job for you…you try and answer that one
I know of plenty, I figured the list be shorter and less time consuming if you just mentioned which you actually agreed with.
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(other than fox and they are just in the middle not on either side)
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When is the last time you have seen a pro bush cartoon.comic, comedian, or late nigt show, news cast
Right wing radio is full of it. Again, the fact that pro bush is lacking doesn't equate soley to left wing dominance of the media, which aside from the mentioned exceptions is true. This argument was more effective before the left wing media tanked after Fox news took over popularity, and before they both tanked from people getting more actual free press on the internet.
Again, your point is valid in reference to left wing media, but not the masses on the internet.
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Stupidity, I’m glad this is no longer a friendly conversation. We liberated Iraq from an Evil Dictator. Get it straight. Go ask the Iraqis how good Ole’ Saddam was treating them!
Uh, I was arguing your point that we didn't invade a nation. Gee wiz man.
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This is about Bush and Facts remember? Stay on topic….damn this is getting old telling you this over and over again.
Wow, way to dodge that one. So I'm off topic when I reference Sadam and his gassing in response your very same reference, but you are not?
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They did infact deserve it. They did infact need to lose their control. Saddam Did chemically attack his OWN people.
Tsk tsk.
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If they were so horrible? Woah. Now you’ve traveled deep into the realm of stupidity friend They were VERY evil.
You have no historical context on this do you? An analogy of the situation without even all outside factors is if Mexico declared war on us and all the illegals took up arms and we killed or gassed them, yep, americans would die too. I can probably bet this to have happened at some point in our wars with mexico too.
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Wrong in the same way we helped germany and japan. The Iraqis have too many people who want to take over the country as apposed to have peace and prosper as one unified nation.
They have too many people who don't want our corruption.
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Good question. Why did Iraq greet us like they did? Hmmmm because they wanna run the country like the thugs they are.
This is retardedly ignorant hate speach. I don't mean hate speach in the P.R. ooh your a bad man for saying it, I'm saying you've bought into propaganda leveled at you by our government. This situation is far too complex and delicate for such and simplified and assinine conclusion.
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Well the dead bodies in the Iraqi streets are my proof to this claim. Where is yours to prove me wrong? Stop acting like the middle east is a peaceful place with peaceful nations. They have literally been killing themselves since they settled in there.
The absurdity of your insinuation is derived from the fact that, once again as I have to point out, they are not just fighting themselves. And half the reason they are fighting eachother will be forever lost on you if you don't come to understand the plan the US had in place when invading, to split up the country, incite sectarian violence, to destabilize the region so we had and excuse to stay. Read the Project For A New American Century's "Rebuilding America's Defenses" if you want to see it.
We aren't and haven't been building permanent military bases because we ever intended on leaving.
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The Bullies are in their own country
I know, that's why I, and they, want us out.
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I am sure they appreiciate you defending those men that are killing their own people.
I only defend our troops because they were indeed lied. As for Iraqis on Iraqis, I support those who are defending themselves from those who indeed seek to fight for unjust power, as well as those who defend themselves from our occupying forces, as well as those who defend themselves against militias and terrorists that we hire and those that we create from our rediculous wars.
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Well our troops sure as hell aren’t killing civillians.
Bullshit. That is the biggest load ever. One cannot conduct a war without it happening no matter hard they try.
Gotta go. TBC
"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
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