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The Ego of Abraham's Followers

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2827 Posts / 91M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

The Ego of Abraham's Followers [+ favourites]

I've attempted to, over the last year or so, gain an intimate understanding of the primary fallacy that exists in the thinking of Jews, Christians and Muslims, and any other religion that claims it is the one true religion. Although there are many fallacies that one may find in the specifics of such relgions, there is a theological error in such thinking. The problem is, I have still not yet accurately deciphered what it is.

I recently had a conversation with Etherealmeekle who is a devoted Christian. This is one of the last posts I made which he agreed to:

quote:
In conclusion:

1. You believe that anyone else who claims to have spoken to any other God is dillusional in some way or the other.
2. You believe that you have spoken to Jesus and that you are not dillusional and that even though you believe all others are, they should not believe that you are.
3. Your purpose in speaking to people about religion has no mortal basis: Its only purpose is to give them as much information about your belief system as possible (based on you speaking to Jesus) in order to create a need in them to speak to Jesus.

Therefore:

1. If you encounter someone that believes you are dillusional and that they are righteous (identical to the way you see them) you two will be at a standstill.

Therefore:

1. If everyone on this site was as dedicated to their religions as you are to yours, and as true in their belief about their personal experience, every discussion would end in an attempt to prove the other person's personal experience is more false than your own.
2. Since all personal experiences are only interpreted by the holder of the experience, that premise, as a whole, becomes an opinion rather than fact.

Therefore:

1. Any discussion between you and a person like you would end up in a discussion about personal opinion with no external basis. The interpretation of one's personal experience can be likened to a favourite food or a favourite color: It is completely relative to the individual.

Therefore:

1. Any discussion about religion with two people exactly like you with opposing beliefs will eventually end in something similar to two people arguing about what the best tasting food is.

The only alternative hope to a person exactly like you is that they will encounter people not as dedicated to their beliefs as you are, in which case there is room to present an opinion (such as a favourite food) and convince the other person of that opinion (that it should be their favourite food as well).

Therefore:

If your purpose here is to try to convince people what their favourite food should be based on your favourite food, you have no place being here.

Both you and I have come to this conclusion.


I after reading that a few times I feel like I'm coming to an understanding of that theological error, and it relates to why I have always reacted angrily to evangelistical people.

The error is this:

If the only sure fire method of faith in such religions is a personal relationship with God, then that forms the basis of loyalty to the religion. "I spoke to God" or "I heard God", or "I felt God" are the only difinitive premises that can widthstand more literary criticisms. This is because such premises cannot be argued: If you saw God, well then, you saw God and that's that.

However, the error presents itself in this: In order for one to have a personal relationship with God, and that God (or his book) claims that he is the only one true God, then everyone else who claims to have spoken to God is dillusional or a liar.

In other words, if one is a Muslim with a personal relationship with God, they openly accept what they believe to be the truth and defend it as truth, yet criticize every person with an opposing belief that is based on the very same premises.

The only way this method of thinking is legitimate is if Islam truly is the word of God. This would justify a Muslim person to believe their experience is real and that a Christian's is false.

And there is the paradox: The only justification for believing Islam is the word of God, is if Islam truly is the word of God. The only way to believe that Islam is truly the word of God, is to believe Islam is the word of God.

To put it simply: The only way to believe in Islam is to accept it is the word of God before justifying this belief. Once you believe it is the word of God, that, in itself, provides the justification for the belief.

Judaism is the same, as is Christianity. This explanation seems quite accurate as it describes various facets of Christian behaviour that have quite often driven me up the wall.

To be a Christian, the first step is to accept that it is the word of God. It is as if the rules and traditions come second. This certainly explains why devoted Christians do not accurately account for contradictions in the Bible: it is because they are not important.

The glaring fallacy in this thinking, of course is, if we are to blindly devote ourselves to a system of beliefs without even knowing what they are about, what basis permits us to do this? Our emotions? Our feelings? Whether we made a right turn or a left turn? There are so many factors that can be biased in so many ways, that our human desires to believe something is the word of God may, in itself, make us think something is the word of God. This, of course, does not make it so.

We can only rely on our feelings and the inclinations of our sub-conscious when we no longer are fearful of our insecurities... this is the only way that we can clearly "feel" a path, for our quantum brains operate in a highly logical manner when not compromised by human fears.

That being said, I have yet to meet a person who feared nothing before they devoted themselves to an Abrahamian religion.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

512 Posts / 29M
     :   20yrs   :  
ChrisD

I really like this post Decius, I think it comes close to the problem of zealous believers of any of the abrahamian beliefs. To get closer to the truth though, I think the problem lies with giving things meaning, false meanings. The fact is, at any point in my life I could say that the reason I made it to where I am today is because God guided me and the voice in my head is in fact God. But you see, there is no tangible evidence as to whether the voice in my head is God or if it's me. Therefore, this point should not be argued unless you could actually show another person that the voice in your heads is God.

An analogy for this is... When you are a kid and you see a magician for the first time. Any kid will believe that what a magician does is magic. The flaw in the child's claim lies in their attempt to give the magician's slight of hand meaning to compensate for the child's lack of understanding. The only thing I'm trying to prove with this analogy is that to give things meaning without understanding always results in illogical things like 'magic'.

These religions really wouldn't get to me if it weren't for their unbridled confidence that they are right. And this confidence wouldn't get to me either if it wasn't the cause of so many of the STUPIDEST wars ever to be concieved. The fact that human lives are wasted because of sheer arrogance and false security makes an anger errupt in me that I just can't let go.

I think the only solution to this problem is to make a whole bunch of baseball bats out of truth and logic and beat the shit out of these people. Who's with me?


"I try my best to be just like I am but everybody wants you to be just like them."

SITE ADMIN
2827 Posts / 91M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

You're backtracking Chris... Focussing on the wars or the illogic of the bible will not work, has never worked, and will never work. This is because Christians and Muslims and Jews believe their religion is the word of God before they know the religion. This is the first step.

In fact, addressing the religion at all is an effort in vain. This is not important.

The most important thing in Judaism and Christianity and Islam, is to have a personal relationship with God, and more specifically the God of their holy book.

The rules and regulations are not important... in fact, many devoted Christians will do things completely opposed to things in the bible such as adultery or theft or murder... This is because as long as you have a personal relationship with God, nothing else matters.

However, depending on the individual, all of the Abrahamian religions silently dictate that in order to successfully have a personal relationship with God, you must be obedient to him. The less obedient, the less you feel his presence. And once this presence is felt, it is so beautiful and uplifting, that like drug addicts, a devotee will do almost anything to feel it over and over, or continuously.

This provides a vector... a push of action. And the bible, or whatever holy book it may be that a follower may believe in, provides the veins for this necessity of action to manifest itself. Depending on the individual, they will focus on different veins, like water, gravitating towards whatever fits them the best.

So if one is a warrior, then they will focus more on the warrior duties outlined in the bible. If one is a healer, they will focus more on the healer duties outlined in the bible.

But it is all secondary. All the action is a means to provide a clearer and more pure relationship with God.

The problem is that this is bondage: One should be able to feel the presence of God through one's own morality and convictions... it should be a choice not a necessity.

The purpose should be to uplift oneself from normal ground, not take oneself out of a hole. It is relativism. What may seem pure and beautiful is just normal to someone who is not in bondage.

So what the Abrahamian religion does is lower you by converting you to a sinner, then provide you normalcy (which you regard as a beautiful Gift) through a relationship with God, and this relationship with God can only be sustained when you perform his will which is outlined in the holy book.

Since we are all made to feel guilty in society for everything we do, Abrahamian religions find a very easy home: They provide compensation for our own personal guilt by giving us a means to repent for them. So instead of feeling guilty alone and in the dark, we feel guilty and compensate for this by going to Church, or converting others, what have you. It provides the veins by which guilt can be compensated for.

This means that the solution is to remove the guilt from the individual. The guilt imposed on an individual by the religion is secondary... there must exist a guilt that propelled them to attach it to the religion.

For example, if one is made to feel dirty by their parents, unwanted or a failure... they will inevitably feel guilty. When they look in the mirror they will despise themselves and have no way out.

There are many forms of escape that can take place... drugs, alcohol, sex, video games, amongst others. But they are all fixes that do not accurately address our need to feel guilty, and to compensate for this guilt.

If this individual encounters Christianity, and Christianity tells him that Jesus knows you're a sinner, and he can forgive you if you love him... you fit that situation to a tee. You're overwhelmed by guilt and self-loathing, and rather than fight the sources of this (such as bad parents or an unfair society) you compensate for it.

A good metaphor would be an infection. You can clean the infection every day, and you can disinfect it, and you can bandage it and walk around every day feeling that you've taken care of your wound and are a responsible person, or you can research the infection and remove it so you no longer have the duties that attach you to it.

Your life has become accustomed to these duties, and you almost need them for normalcy. Losing them feels like you would lose yourself.

But the wound of guilt, of self-loathing, is nothing more than an infection. And it does not form the basis of anyone's true personality. Nature has yet to create a creature that despises itself with validity... because everything is beautiful and everything is purposeful.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

512 Posts / 29M
     :   20yrs   :  
ChrisD

I like that thought Decius... that these religions take you from normalcy and put you in the position of a sinner. If you accept what it says, then the only way to relieve this title is to love Jesus or whatnot. What a great plot, these religions seem to be predators that prey on naiveness and guilt, both psychological problems which means there is no sure-fire medicine to heal them. So perhaps religion is both a psychological medicine and, in the past, a means of exploitation, it might still be a means of exploitation today actually.


"I try my best to be just like I am but everybody wants you to be just like them."

The Ego of Abraham's Followers
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