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Christian Q&A

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6 Posts / 30M
     :   19yrs   :  
asherownsyou

Decius, it seems that you dont acually want to ask questions, you just want to make christianity seem false. I dont know though, but that is what it seems like.


""The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.""

1334 Posts / 44M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

CodeWarrior :

quote:
If you have 3 computers with 3 copies of photoshop running on them are not the 3 copies all equal? Yet at any given time each copy can be doing different things and fulfilling different roles.

That is an incorrect analogy and not an answer, because you are only assuming the first part of the statement- that the Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, hence assuming they are identical copies. BUT the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father. If each copy is doing different things and fulfilling different roles then they aren't identical copies! Therefore the trinity concept of the Christian dogma is a contradiction.

quote:
Kings are sovereign. they may also change there minds when you petition them. I do not understand how you draw that conclusion.

To elaborate on my statement and question(s) the purpose of a pray is to 'communicate with a god'. So if god is sovereign, then why pray if god responds selectively. What is the logical point of prayer when God knows the future and is already in control of everything (hence predetermined).
If we cannot change God's mind, why should we pray? Why doesn't prayer work, when the bible promises that it will (John 14:14, for example)? Didn't the six million Jews who perished in Hitler's concentration camps pray? Why did God ignore them?

If God is all-present, then it is not necerssary for us to be in certain places for certain things; if God is all-knowing, then it is not necerssary to pray in order to tell it our feelings and wishes, if God is perfectly good and just, then our prayers asking it to help others are pointless, God will help those that deserve it without or without our persuasive attempts.

When we pray, we are expressing our thoughts to what we think of as God. But, if God is all-knowing then it already knows anything we say. If we pray because we are feeling threatened, insecure, etc... God already knows how we feel. If we pray because we wish God to make a friend recover from illness... then God already knows that we want it to help our friend. So what is the point of praying to God for these things? It is definately not because it needs us to, or because we want it to tell it something that it already knows!

When we pray for someone, we are asking God to help them out or punish them. However, as the typical God is all-knowing, it already knows that we want it to what we're about to ask. So there's no point in actually asking! It already knows what we want to say and what we feel. But also God knows its own actions, as an all-knowing being it knows what it itself will do in the future (it has no free will). As such, any argument or thoughts we have are pointless to it. Also, if god is perfectly just and follows the most perfect course of action, then, it already knows if any given person is to be healed or punished. Therefore praying cannot possibly change its mind.

If God is all-knowing then it doesn't require anyone to pray because it already knows what we're going to say and what we're thinking. If God is perfectly good and just, then any praying we do for others is pointless as it will not manipulate the facts of whether it is right for a certain person to be benefited or left. If it right, God will do it with or without prayers, if it is not right, God won't do it.

The answer to the question why do we pray- is that praying is for ourselves. The typical Christian response is just that... but the christian response is plainly narrow. Praying is all for the self, not for God, as God doesn't need it.


"The summit is just a halfway point"

1816 Posts / 67M
     :   56yrs   :  
cturtle

quote:
To elaborate on my statement and question(s) the purpose of a pray is to 'communicate with a god'. So if god is sovereign, then why pray if god responds selectively. What is the logical point of prayer when God knows the future and is already in control of everything (hence predetermined).
If we cannot change God's mind, why should we pray? Why doesn't prayer work, when the bible promises that it will (John 14:14, for example)? Didn't the six million Jews who perished in Hitler's concentration camps pray? Why did God ignore them?

Glad you brought that up again, recent experiences had given the prayer aspect greater importance in my life.
Gainesville Sun, Saturday July 15, 2006
State & Local, Section B
Article at bottom of page on Elderly Woman by Lise Fisher
After 10 days missing the woman was found alive & in relatively good health. I had been part of that seach for this missing person, who had not returned from walking her dog.. In fact, I had gone out putting up flyers to notify the local residents & seeking help in locating the woman. After so many days of seaching the woods, etc the hope of finding her alive had become slim. In circulating Flyers, I had stopped by local churches and in talking to others I had asked for their prayers (as spirit moved me according to their spiritual nature). Did these acts, did the prayers of others produce this results? I don't know that they did but I do believe that keeping awareness of the public served the purpose & added a positive aspect to the ordeal.


"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

167 Posts / 33M
     :   26yrs   :  
CodeWarrior

quote:
That is an incorrect analogy and not an answer, because you are only assuming the first part of the statement- that the Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, hence assuming they are identical copies. BUT the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father. If each copy is doing different things and fulfilling different roles then they aren't identical copies! Therefore the trinity concept of the Christian dogma is a contradiction.


Then by your definition copies of photoshop on different computers doing different tasks are not identical pieces of software ether yet most people would define them as identical. In this case it may be a question of fine distinctions of semantics and the differing understanding between you and me on what is being expressed in the bibles semantics. I understand it to mean that the trinity is identical in the sense similar pieces of software are identical. That is identical in divine nature and persona.

quote:
To elaborate on my statement and question(s) the purpose of a pray is to 'communicate with a god'. So if god is sovereign, then why pray if god responds selectively. What is the logical point of prayer when God knows the future and is already in control of everything (hence predetermined).


Well to start with their is a difference of opinion between different schools of Christian thought (see here) I lean to the view that the future is only partially predetermined due to human free will.

quote:
If God is all-knowing then it doesn't require anyone to pray because it already knows what we're going to say and what we're thinking. If God is perfectly good and just, then any praying we do for others is pointless as it will not manipulate the facts of whether it is right for a certain person to be benefited or left.


Their is a school of thought that god requires an excuse to intervene in human dominion of the earth having given it to man kind. The same argument is given in explaining why Jesus had to become a man to redeem humanity. It is generally understood that a prayer of faith releases god to intervene in the hurting world that on the whole rejects his intervention by its sin.


1816 Posts / 67M
     :   56yrs   :  
cturtle

In reading the post, I was left with a fuzzy concept of the intent?

quote:
Their is a school of thought that god requires an excuse to intervene in human dominion of the earth having given it to man kind. The same argument is given in explaining why Jesus had to become a man to redeem humanity. It is generally understood that a prayer of faith releases god to intervene in the hurting world that on the whole rejects his intervention by its sin.
the link is so diverse as to make the point unclear, at least in my thinking?
After submitting this potion, I returned to the thread, rereading it as it developed from previous statements by others. the first potion declaring GOD needs an excuse to intervene? Perhaps but I tend to see a general distain for GOD's intervention during biblical OT period, which culmulated with GOd giving man over to his lust (sin nature) & the coming of the messiah => christ. So that "prayer of faith releases god to intervene in the hurting world" as the point of the concluding statement? So GOD intervenes according to the faithful asking (seeking) which extends to give evidence (manifest) to the World that HIS WAY is the necessary ingredient for going beyond the our predisposed nature for self destructive tendicies?


"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

167 Posts / 33M
     :   26yrs   :  
CodeWarrior

If you study genesis you see that god had an agreement with man, a covenant, this adamic covenant included penalties for sin along with gods grant of dominion over the earth so god is able to operate with in that covenant to punish sin (as in the global flood), Under the abrahamic covenant god had a right to take the Israelites out of Egypt because of Abraham's faith. Etc, Etc, Etc. The wonderful thing about faith is the faith of one man with god can over power the animosity of nations.


1334 Posts / 44M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

Codewarrior:
As you evoke of yourself, and it is rather clear that you provide no logical justification for your words. To simply state that the trinity is all the same is so absurd its really quite amusing. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father. If each copy is doing different things and fulfilling different roles then they aren't identical copies. Among the sayings and discourses of Christianity, no one has ever provided an explination there. I believe your photoshop analogy is confused and simply augments the contradictions of the trinitarianism concept. If you wish to conclude, that differences in understanding of the trinity is based on differences in semantics, then firstly realise that christianity neither is, nor ever stated the trinity on a logical basis.The basic problem is that trinitarianism is a nonbiblical doctrine that contradicts many biblical teachings and many certain verses of Scripture. Moreover, the doctrine contains a number of internal contradictions.

quote:
It is generally understood that a prayer of faith releases god to intervene in the hurting world that on the whole rejects his intervention by its sin.
that is not an answer. But simply a made-up guess.

quote:
The wonderful thing about faith is the faith of one man with god can over power the animosity of nations.

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence- Dawkins.


So I guess the questions remain, (amongst all the other questions I've asked, which clearly haven't been answered by a christian. Not that providing a legitimate answer is anybodies responsibility on this site. But taking in the fact that many christians claim truth as universal, it is very conspicious and rather interesting, how so little christians can justify their beliefs in regards to questions upheld, such as the above). I guess they must all be mislead because the more I study religions the more I am convinced that a christian never worshipped anything but himself. Organized Christianity has probably done more to retard the ideals that were its founder's than any other agency in the world. You should have a reason to believe, not a duty to believe.


"The summit is just a halfway point"
[  Edited by summit at   ]

167 Posts / 33M
     :   26yrs   :  
CodeWarrior

It's a post apocalyptic world. All the cars in the world have been crunched except for 3 identical models of ford escorts. All red. All with out number plates. One takes the president around, one his wife and one his son. Now suppose you were to worship this car. Which ones picture would you put up? How would you know 2 of them hadn't swapped. When god speaks of him self as the one god in exodus he is warning the people not to worship other gods. To make images of them. To construct an pantheon of gods responsible for different qualities or places, gods with distinct humanly imagined flawed characters.

Tho shalt not make for thy self a blue Volvo match box toy and worship it.

Think of it as twins or sisters so close they'll even shear their clothes. Being so close and being so similar that it doesn't matter who has what or wears what.


1334 Posts / 44M
     :   22yrs   :  
summit

Your analogy hasn't changed concept, for which it still remains contradictory. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father. If each copy is doing different things and fulfilling different roles then they aren't identical copies. Agree? The father, son and holy ghost are all DIFFERENT counterparts, and therefore it is an internal contradiction


"The summit is just a halfway point"

167 Posts / 33M
     :   26yrs   :  
CodeWarrior

It seems to me that by your definition no thing can be said to be identiac to any other thing but its self. For 2 objects to be distict (2 objects as oposed to 1) they must have sepreat propertys of sorts. 2 Idential objects must ocupy difrent locations. This does not prevent their internal propertys being equvilant and so the objects being identical. We may define 2 things as being identical if we can say there exists some set of internal propertys asociated with the object and then with respect to this set they are identical.


2 Posts / 21M
     :   16yrs   :  
Jesusfreak

These answers are for summit.

Q: How would you logically prove that your god exists using rational evidential reasoning and justification - without using arguments that someone from another religion would use to prove their god exists, and without reference to the Bible?

A: I believe that if someone needs logical proof to believe in a supernatural being like God, then that person will never trully be planted in any faith. The only way to explain that God exists other than the Bible or things like miracles, is by faith. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen" (Hebrews 11:1) Now I didn't use the Bible to prove that God does exist and that the only way to heaven is through Christ, I used an excerpt to show that FAITH truly is the only way to prove that God exists. Without faith, no one can ever truly be saved because then the person has no hope of trusting the Lord Jesus.

Q: Christians say that: "The Father(F) is God, the Son(S) is God, and the Holy Ghost(H) is God, but the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost is not the Father". In simple arithmetic and terms therefore, if F = G, S = G, and H = G, then it follows that F = S = H, while the second part of the statement suggests that F ? S ? H (meaning, "not equal" ). Isn?t that a contradiction to the Christian dogma of Trinity in itself ?

A: Whoah! Slow down. I'm only fifteen and even I know that you don't need arithmetic to understand the trinity. The trinity is simply this: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. 3 in 1. NO arithmetic involved. Again, this is a thing of faith, not of science. You don't ask God to explain himself, you ask him to help you fathom his wonders.

Q:If "God" knows the future and the past with perfect certainty. Why did He create me knowing that my fate is to burn forever in Hell? If you had a disease which caused all your children to live in relative comfort for 1 hour, then die slowly and in horrible, debilitating pain over the course of 10 years, would you choose to have children? Do you think your choice is moral?

A: The belief in fate as most would put your many words of an Islamic belief. God created us with free will and then sent his Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, to Earth to die for our sins. Whether we would accept him as what he was, our Messiah, our Savior, was up to us (hence the freewill). You are only destined for HELL (which is a very scary thought) when you don't accept the truth that God has put plainly in front of us.

Q:Why Pray? If it changes God's mind then he is not sovereign. If it does not change Gold's mind then it is superfluous

A: Prayer is one of the most important and strongest tools we have as Christians. Prayer is our way of communicating with God, giving him praise and thanks, and asking for things. The way I see it, God knows 99.99% of the future. He knows the different kinds of paths we can take, and then depending on what path we choose, he knows what could happen. The fact that God can't change his mind for fear of not being sovereign is propostorous. I believe that if God wanted to he could just end us right now. We don't have the right to tell God what he can or can't do, he cannot sin and therefore whether I'm wrong about this or not, God could never become less sovereign or superfluous. Just try reading the Bible. I'm sure that with patience and the right kind of person to guide you, you'll will find answers to your questions and much much more. And remember, no matter what path you take, Jesus will always love you more than anyone could possibly guess, just as he loves everyone.


"If God is with me, who can be against me?"

757 Posts / 41M
     :   19yrs   :  
MugenNoKarayami

quote:
A: Whoah! Slow down. I'm only fifteen and even I know that you don't need arithmetic to understand the trinity. The trinity is simply this: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. 3 in 1. NO arithmetic involved. Again, this is a thing of faith, not of science. You don't ask God to explain himself, you ask him to help you fathom his wonders


1.How can one thing truly be identical if it is all three things, but those three things cannot be eachother? If they are all God, then the father, the son, and the holy spirit would have to be identical to eachother asl well.
2.Asking God to do anything is not worth the effort. If "God's wonders" were meant to be understood, then we wouldn't be asking it would already be determined.


quote:
A: The belief in fate as most would put your many words of an Islamic belief. God created us with free will and then sent his Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, to Earth to die for our sins. Whether we would accept him as what he was, our Messiah, our Savior, was up to us (hence the freewill). You are only destined for HELL (which is a very scary thought) when you don't accept the truth that God has put plainly in front of us.


1.I'm starting to believe more and more from Summit earlier back that Jesus's death was a guilt trip.
2.Why would God destine other's existence to hell


quote:
A: Prayer is one of the most important and strongest tools we have as Christians. Prayer is our way of communicating with God, giving him praise and thanks, and asking for things. The way I see it, God knows 99.99% of the future. He knows the different kinds of paths we can take, and then depending on what path we choose, he knows what could happen. The fact that God can't change his mind for fear of not being sovereign is propostorous. I believe that if God wanted to he could just end us right now. We don't have the right to tell God what he can or can't do, he cannot sin and therefore whether I'm wrong about this or not, God could never become less sovereign or superfluous. Just try reading the Bible. I'm sure that with patience and the right kind of person to guide you, you'll will find answers to your questions and much much more. And remember, no matter what path you take, Jesus will always love you more than anyone could possibly guess, just as he loves everyone.


1. I know you made up that percentage to make it seem more all knowing because you didn't explain where that other .01% went off to. So don't guess, it makes you look like an ass.
2. If God did end us, that would be a sin by "his own book" Personally I wouldn't want to accept anyone or anything of that stature who wouldn't practice what they preach.


"I'm a human being, God Dammit!! My life has value!!!"

1816 Posts / 67M
     :   56yrs   :  
cturtle

quote:
1.How can one thing truly be identical if it is all three things, but those three things cannot be each other? If they are all God, then the father, the son, and the holy spirit would have to be identical to each other as well.
Perhaps it is a matter of perception . . . The concept of GOD creating force is representative of God Breath or breathe. As GOD created the world out of himself => breathe then the matter of the world is a manifestation of GOD.
Science teaches that all matter is composed of atoms, all atoms are composed of basic particles => electrons outside the nucleus containing protons & neutrons. But then science also states that matter is composed of energy => the substance the Hebrew called GOD breathe.
Of course, these (both) are only human perceptions of his existence.
quote:
2.Asking God to do anything is not worth the effort. If "God's wonders" were meant to be understood, then we wouldn't be asking, it would already be determined.
You may believe one or the other or both or neither, that is your choice.


"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

560 Posts / 32M
     :   20yrs   :  
ChrisD

Q: When a Christian finds his faith is it God or their own free will that causes them to regurgitate smugness from their every pore?


"I try my best to be just like I am but everybody wants you to be just like them."

SITE ADMIN
2866 Posts / 94M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

quote:
Jesusfreak: Whoah! Slow down. I'm only fifteen and even I know that you don't need arithmetic to understand the trinity. The trinity is simply this: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. 3 in 1. NO arithmetic involved. Again, this is a thing of faith, not of science. You don't ask God to explain himself, you ask him to help you fathom his wonders.


That is possibly the stupidest, most pathetically shitty answer I've ever heard from a Christian. I find it remarkable when 15 year old idiots don't even have the humility to say "i don't know" and think they can provide an answer that my fucking idiotic dog would find disconcerning.

How the hell can you be stupider than my dog, Jesusfreak? I'm assuming your faith will prevent you from facing this fact, but trust me, years from now when you're depressed because your cock remains persistently limp, you will begin to question whether your faith doesn't also require some faith in hallucinogenic substances.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

Christian Q&A
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