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Would society be better without money?

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4026 Posts / 51M
     :   31yrs   :  
Ironwood

quote:
Would society be better without money?


This question is made irrelevant by the unprovided definition of what a good society is.

And since this answer lies in personal preference it is unattainable as a definitive.

Though a rough generalization can be given through common themes of aggreement.

This can be decsribed loosely by the notions that basic needs need to be accessible to all, not necessarily provided, but accessable.

What many communistic idealists often lose sight of is the efforts needed by them to keep these accessable, not the efforts needed to obtain them, but to keep them accessable.

Where they tend to fall flat is in giving away their rights and responsibilities to watch over their rights and care for their needs, ergo their responsibility to keep themselves alive, not to expect others to do it for them and not resent this burden or take advantage of it.

What so many capitalists fail to understand is that to have excess at some point means to take from others. And that "free markets" are actually less free when unregulated (unbalanced), because someone other than a force for balance for the good of all then has the "freedom" to take over and always does. But they are too blinded by their own greed and delusions of grandure to see that's already the case.

Both end in tyranny.

The above question is also irrelevant because of all the little things hinted at but never fully articulated or expanded upon throughout this entire thread.

Which is why is the question asked to begin with. Which is why society doesn't seem to be better.

Money is not the issue. Money is but a tool.

How it is used is the issue that concerns money.

Money is not the root of all evil, evil is. But as has been thuroughly discussed, what is evil. Other than a term mired is mysticism and ambiguity.

I suggest another term, I feel the common and more easily definable ailment of both money and society is corruption.

Corruption of individuals and systems, of any natural balance that allows anything to sustain.

Balance is kept by regulation between freedom and common law, basic rules that are general enough to extend to all as a whole and flexible enough to cater to all individually.

But regulation has to be regulated by these individuals as well.

That is why America was beautiful, in theory.

It was a democratic republic. A constitutionally based society with freedom that was regulated as simplistically as possible and governed not by a few, but by the masses, but not the masses over the few either, hence inalienable rights.

But all of that has changed, and in fact, barely, if ever, actually was.

What was brought up but not fully articulated and definitely not likely absorbed or understood was what Trippy and GM1258, and while I was typing KGB, and briefly fearless, or bluntly by Decius were mentionings of corruption in one sense or another.

It comes down to fucked up people doing fucked up things and the rest of us either greedily or ignorantly helping or cowardly or ignorantly doing nothing to stop it.

Those who think that "the system" of money and the governing bodies over it and other systems aren't corrupt and manipulated are wrong.

Money and government are not evil. Evil is.

Trippy was trying to explain how money is wrongfully used. Which is what is needed to know in order to correct it as others have suggested.

And you can't just teach your kids to live right then throw them into a corrupt system. They will be persecuted untill conforming to corruption.

Let me elaborate on trippy's point.

Our money, and this covers most of us in all our varying countries through two main methods, is lent to us at instant debt, interest.

As he mentioned, it was once backed by something with a more consistent value, gold. It was more consistent because of its stability of physical existance. It could not be generated at will. And when exchanged responsibly without rediculous accumulations of interest it retained it value as well.

The initial key is still the fact that today money is lent to our governments/us at interest. With debt instantly attached. This includes the once mighty America.

For those who don't know, the "Federal Reserve" is not Federal at all. It is owned by private banks, banks designed for profit.

There is a lot to be explained in the details of its creation and supposed oversight but it is all a sham. They have never been audited. It is not even public record as to all of which banks own the Fed.

The second key comes in the form of Fractional Reserve Banking.

This is where, once debt and the need to borrow to pay it has exceeded physical resources backing the currency, gold, it is generated out of thin air based on fractions of the worth of the initial resource, at debted interest of course.

Once the gold was taken off as the standard so this could continue indefinitely, it did.

Then those lending the money lend us more money that they don't have any backing for, yet still charge interest on, by typing numbers into a computer, usually deemed as fraud if you and I were to do it.

Why does this matter if it helps us grow right? Well, you would only be asking that if the debt portion hadn't sunk in yet.

But if you need a little more, here's another tidbit. These are the people who determine how much money is in circulation and how much various interest rates are, and when to call in outstanding loans and debts.

What that equals is total control.

Ever wonder where our unconstitutional, unratified, supreme court reiterrated unauthorized, unaportioned income tax goes to pay?

Those who believe the system isn't a corrupt scam haven't seemed to watch how over and over these banking interests have generated all this debt, called in loans and debts and then bought or confiscated resources, land, property, businesses etc. at pennies on the dollar or for nothing but through force of "law".

There is a reason why approximately 1-10% of the population controls some 90% of the world's wealth.

And it isn't capitalism.

These are the same people and entities that have funded communists, fascists, and capitalists alike, as well as funded and fomented their wars, at debt and interest.

It all equals a concentration of wealth and power for them.

And it is only possible due to the greed, ignorance, and cowardice of the rest of us.

I'll direct you to a link to help make the point should you choose to bother.

http://www.captaincynic.com/thread/36405/conspiracy-confessions.htm


"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

253 Posts / 34M
     :   31yrs   :  
Black Gold

I truly appreciate your views Ironwood.
I guess I'm very idealistic, and it didn't occur to me at the time to question the way society is made up (has been made up in the past, and may well be made up in the future).
I guess the definition of society I had in mind, was pretty much anyone who uses it, like people who are part of a society of money.
I guess there are two scary things about the control of money being in too few people's hands. One, is that it's scary that by their power, the people who control the wealth, control us to a great degree. But, second, it's probably scary for them that we could take it away. But this is also scary for us, as an unjust person may do large scale things to hold onto their wealth and power.
I believe that there is some sort of conspiracy there... Thanks for the link, by the way!
At this point I will recognise although infinitely less powerful the possibilities of beneficial conspiracies (try not laugh though!) placebos, surprises, the answers to exam questions (before the exam). Yes! That's not quite the same as “I'm being taken advantage of by someone who has more wealth than me, not necessarily by ability!”
Money is a tool... Knives are tools... Who teaches you can define how they're used...
I admit that it isn't capitalism does not dictate who owns what portion is held by what elements of society, that is in our hands. However, with ownership comes resources, investment returns, industriousness productivity, and soon if we're not all doing the same thing, inequality in terms of money happens. This is not seen as a problem, until one guy owns an entire country.
And, even without Capitalism, there could easily be inequality, especially if conspiracies and greed over distribution of resources is present.
I was not one hundred percent about wanting to give up money, and started the thread, and there have been some very good arguments for and against. The people for think that it may bring about a greater more equal system, where there is bread on everyone's plate. Those against, see that money has done a lot for us, and provides incentives for those who truly need it to get by.
I guess one thing is that element of power-hungriness, and given investment, just about everything going your way. Not too many people without a formidable conscience would want to give that up.
I guess it could be like a drug to them. It being money. And don't forget what money can bring being a factor also, like respect, temperance, all smiles. “Don't worry sir! I'm right on it!” instead of “Oh! My car used to be here!”...
I thank you for bringing up the topic of power and corruption!
I ask you to consider, what tools make these things more possible?
What you brought up was well founded and important...
But, perhaps consider where people have tried this before, and how it could be improved, to the point where what was “sensible” in theory, can become successful in practice... Keep in mind, that not everything works first time, and that some great things are always being improved on...


"There is no negative one..."

ADMINISTRATOR
3001 Posts / 62M
     :   25yrs   :  
Wyote

quote:
Money is not the issue. Money is but a tool.


quote:
There is always desire for control.


quote:
Communism will not work with pathetic self-centered jagoffs like us.


And thus, we've come full circle.

Money - being the tool of indicating somethings value - seems to me like it would become irrelevant once humans fully realize everyone is of equal value. Yet, we are comparative creatures, and will probably always push one another to work harder. Those lacking in the pursuit of betterment will be devalued.


"I am Akba-Atatdia"

127 Posts / 15M
     :   26yrs   :  
Jimbobby

quote:
once humans fully realize everyone is of equal value.


Very nice. Who actually practices this? why?

Compare to "once humans fully realize everything is of equal value". Then think on lines of money.


"Only gay people have quotes to look good"

20 Posts / 9M
     :   43yrs   :  
fearless5555

The solution is to enforce serious punishment for greed, corruptive behavior, taking advantage of others, and common stealing be it conned or otherwise.

There are no strongly enforced punishments for crimes that deter these behaviors. Once certain laws are passed and old ones broken along the lines for such behavior then over time the equality will be achieved. And the striving for money and greed will be removed and the focus will shift away to what will eventually be achieved.

Making the ones striving for power, control, and greed will be removed from society and then the rest can focus on preservation instead of what we have now.

Remove the current laws that protect this behavior and Viola you have your money-free society.

GET REAL PEOPLE AND SEE THE LIGHT, EVOLVE AND WEED OUT THE GREED.


"Teach the people how to get along with one another because we already know how not to!"

99 Posts / 15M
     :   31yrs   :  
doom123

ide rather live with money than have more laws projected upon me. using the government as a tool to achieve this no-money society would only further the value of money itself. As usual, laws would have an opposite effect. money has been rooted much further into our lives than just being used to buy things. it has become a symbol of class and social standings. these standings would not be so readily given up by the elite. it would be a tragedy to resort to the use of laws to achieve a mission that relies on values and morals. a task of this caliber would require a social revolution. possibly an enlightenment.


"if life has no point whats the point in talking about it?"

20 Posts / 9M
     :   43yrs   :  
fearless5555

A revolution of enlightenment is the goal to remove the power over others. This is the path of the Way of the How?

finally some one gets it. mahalo


Fearlessnotcareless.com


"Teach the people how to get along with one another because we already know how not to!"

99 Posts / 15M
     :   31yrs   :  
doom123

fearless, i read ur blog on having no money. i like your thinking and i love your mission! good luck. im glad some one is taking a stand to stop the selfish belief that another person has the right to project their rules on other people. its completely arrogant and fake!


"if life has no point whats the point in talking about it?"

3 Posts / 6M
     :   48yrs   :  
Chaz321

We have to widen our view and stop having such norrow vision, sure it all sounds great for developed countires with fertile soil like the UK and USA, but then think of how places like Africa would survive, no money = no income from exports, no income means no aid for the country (and obiously we couldnt provide aid, we have to labour all day so that we can eat!) therefore millions starve and die, not to mention all disabled people who cant labour, people wont spend half their day providing for a disabled person when their family has to eat, and of course there would be no progress, no fuel, and everyone would be a farmer, the whole community spirit thing doesnt work ! and then there are the low lifes who will steal rather than work, and with nobody making alarms, and no police, it wouldnt be hard for the thieves, we hae money for a reason, we cant function without it.


"You Dont Need Eyes To See, You Need Vision"

253 Posts / 34M
     :   31yrs   :  
Black Gold

Nice that you join us Chaz321...

I guess, I should just say that, even though there may be no money, we could all still have jobs, and contribute our time and efforts for those less fortunate... We'll still need specialists, etc.

We'd still provide foreign aid, and try to stop thievery.
The community spirit could work, given the right attitude...

I guess what people generally think is that it wouldn't work, because of genuine attachments to the capitalist system.
I'm not sure, but would be interested in trialling it...
You could do it one community (commune) at a time.

Have another think about it...
If you had all that you wanted or needed, would you want more as insurance? (like an excessive amount of money in the bank)
Understand, we would still have stores of life's necessities (like food, fuel, clothing,etc.) and the money is no great good if there's nothing there to buy...


"There is no negative one..."

321 Posts / 17M
     :   18yrs   :  
CrypticTruth

First of all I think it is sick how we Americans have allowed money to completely dominate our lives. Today the American government promises us freedom, but money has got us entangled in almost every way. It’s got us in living in fear of depression, inflation, and losing our jobs. The only problem is that as a society we are totally convinced that money is a necessity. For this to work every one would need to change their values and ride our society of materialism. I truly don’t think the general public is ready for this kind of system. There is no way to ride these values and concepts and if and if they were stricken form society I feel that some other meaning less object would become the new currency.


""Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth" -oscar wilde"

253 Posts / 34M
     :   31yrs   :  
Black Gold

I saw this program on TV last night that made me think about this post.
They talked about nurses (and teachers,etc) not getting paid the money they deserve for the difficult job they do. Things like doing a 12 hour shift in the early hours of a Sunday morning.
They discussed a lot of aspects. But it was clear that opinion is that what people get paid for what they do for the community is seriously out of whack.


"There is no negative one..."

321 Posts / 17M
     :   18yrs   :  
CrypticTruth

I would have to agree with Black gold people in these professions in now way get the salaries they deserve.
National averages from the new education association
Teacher $32,488
Researcher
(non-technical) $41,667
Management Trainee $41,864
Registered Nurse $41,616
Accountant (public) $46,289
Field Engineer $52,277

Some alarming statistics:

The National Center for Education Statistics found that 48 percent of teachers quit in 2001 because of poor salary or benefits.

According to an Economic Policy Institute study, teachers' inflation-adjusted wages have risen by less than one percent since 1996. Meanwhile, workers at similar skill and educational levels saw their salaries grow by 12 percent during the same period.

The group identified 16 occupations that are comparable to teachers in education and skill requirements. In 2002, EPI found teachers earned $116 less per week than those who had comparable occupations.


""Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth" -oscar wilde"

160 Posts / 67M
     :   59yrs   :  
jakereaney

I believe we need a system.
Jake




253 Posts / 34M
     :   31yrs   :  
Black Gold

Just thought that the words to "Imagine" by John Lennon fit well in with this topic...


Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


"There is no negative one..."

Would society be better without money?
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