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What is religion?
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2203 Posts / 67M
     :   49yrs   :  
okcitykid

quote:
you must look at the question objectively


You'll never do that if you throw God out.






"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

210 Posts / 42M
     :   33yrs   :  
PeteSmith

quote:
Thats my point, its not supposed to make any sense.
Thats why it is "illogical".
An illogical statement about God does not make the concept of God illogical.

Some more comments about that statment.
http://www.carm.org/questions/rock.htm

This question is representative of the type of paradoxes atheists use in attempts to prove that God cannot exist. It works like this. God is supposed to be omnipotent. If He is omnipotent, then He can create a rock so big that He can't pick it up. If He cannot make a rock like this, then He is not omnipotent. If He can make a rock so big He can't pick it up, then He isn't omnipotent either. Either way demonstrates that God cannot do something. Therefore God is not omnipotent. Therefore God does not exist.
Is this logical? A little. However, the problem is that this bit of logic omits some crucial information, therefore, it's conclusion is inaccurate.
What the above "paradox" lacks is vital information concerning God's nature. His omnipotence is not something independent of His nature. It is part of His nature. God has a nature and His attributes operate within that nature, as does anything and everything else.
For example, I have human nature. I can run. But, I cannot outrun a lion. My nature simply does not permit it. My ability to run is connected to my nature and I cannot violate it. So too with God. His omnipotence is connected to His nature since being omnipotent is part of what He is. Omnipotence, then, must be consistent with what He is and not with what He is not since His omnipotence is not an entity to itself. Therefore, God can only do those things that are consistent with His nature. He cannot lie because it is against His nature to do so. Not being able to lie does not mean He is not God or that He is not all powerful. Also, He cannot cease to be God. Since He is in all places at all times, if He stopped existing then He wouldn't be in all places at all time. Therefore, He cannot cease to exist without violating His own nature.
The point is that God cannot do something that is a violation of His own existence and nature. Therefore, He cannot make a rock so big he can't pick up, or make something bigger than Himself, etc. But, not being able to do this does not mean He is not God nor that He is not omnipotent. Omnipotence is not the ability to do anything conceivable, but the ability to do anything consistent with His nature and consistent with His desire within the realm of His unlimited and universal power which we do not possess. This does not mean He can violate His own nature. If He did something inconsistent with His nature, then He would be self contradictory. If God were self contradictory, He would not be true. Likewise, if He did something that violated his nature, like make a rock so big He can't pick it up, He would also not be true since that would be a self contradiction. Since truth is not self contradictory, as neither is God, if He were not true, then He would not be God. But God is true and not self contradictory, therefore, God cannot do something that violates His own nature.
Another way to look at it is realize that in order for God to make something so big He couldn't pick it up, He would have to make a rock bigger than Himself. Since He is infinite in size, He would have to make something that would be bigger than Himself. Since it is His nature to be the biggest thing in existence because He created all things, He cannot violate His own nature by making a rock that is larger than He.
Also, since a rock, by definition, is not infinitely big, then it isn't logically possible to make a rock, something that is finite in size, be infinite in size (no longer a rock) since only God is infinite in size. At dictionary.com, a rock is defined as a "Relatively hard, naturally formed mineral or petrified matter; stone. a) A relatively small piece or fragment of such material. b) A relatively large body of such material, as a cliff or peak. c) A naturally formed aggregate of mineral matter constituting a significant part of the earth's crust." A rock, by definition is not infinitely large. So, to say that the rock must be so big that God cannot pick it up is to say that the rock is no longer a rock.
What the critics are asking is that God become self contradictory as a proof He doesn't exist. Their assertion is illogical from the start. So what they are doing is trying to get God to be illogical. They want to use illogic to prove God doesn't exist instead of logic. It doesn't work and the "paradox" is self-refuting and invalid.


""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

139 Posts / 47M
     :   24yrs   :  
wholly

say man, i didnt read all that was written above this is just my two cents on the concept of religion. i think it developed conceptually out of two seperate but equally essential needs of primitive hominids. the need for social order and, as cognative capacity increased, the need for hope. i concieve it as a very subtle and lengthy process that brings us to its present form. but, as one can see over just the past 500 years religion is a constantly evolving mechanism.


"dont got one"

220 Posts / 42M
     :   19yrs   :  
lastresort

wholly, you're my main man...

ok, okcitykid (or anyone else), what came first... religion or god... actually think about it before you answer... dont blindly say god because you believe he exists...

is it not possible that god was created by us when we created religion?

819 Posts / 60M
     :   19yrs   :  
Angel Of Death

The conceptual god was created by us, the idea of god as a seperate entity sitting up there somewhere judging all of us. Our idea of God has been created, but that still leaves room for us to ponder and try to find the ultimate meaning of life, whatever you choose to call it;God, your true nature, soul.

For religion to exists, the big ones atleast like Chritianity, Buddhisim, Islam, Hinuduisim, there had to be an 'Ultimate' that the preachers of religion got close to. Someone in this thread said the prophets must have made up all this stuff, that maybe quite unlikely, as you just have to read the books like the Bible and the Quran.

Regarding the God and Him lifting the stone thingy, its really a very stuipid and irrelvant question. If you think of God as seperate from us, with human like characteristics, only then does this question arise, otherwise its irrelvant.




"I'll heal ur woundz I'll set u free, I m jesus christ on xtacy"

2203 Posts / 67M
     :   49yrs   :  
okcitykid

quote:
ok, okcitykid (or anyone else), what came first... religion or god... actually think about it before you answer... dont blindly say god because you believe he exists...


If you believe in God - well then ofcourse God

If you don't believe in God- well then ofcourse religion

You think about it.

What do you want to know - or do you just want to teach us.

Don't ask questions - just teach us if that's what you want to do. We may listen and we may not.

But don't ask a question and say you want only your answer. Why are you asking questions if you're not willing to learn.

I'm a grown up, a gave up on games a long time ago.

You got something to say - just say it.


"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

819 Posts / 60M
     :   19yrs   :  
Angel Of Death

...spoke my mind


"I'll heal ur woundz I'll set u free, I m jesus christ on xtacy"

772 Posts / 42M
     :   25yrs   :  
heyjme1

quote:
The point is that God cannot do something that is a violation of His own existence and nature. Therefore, He cannot make a rock so big he can't pick up, or make something bigger than Himself, etc. But, not being able to do this does not mean He is not God nor that He is not omnipotent.


I've referred to this question in a previous post somewhere. Is God not the rock?

I've had the confusion between the balance of spiritual ends and political ends in religions. I agree with Angel that most prophets must have been close to God. But I also know that they were just human; subject to the same emotions we all face. I think religion, for me, is a resource, like science is, to help guide. It should be treated, like science, with caution and be comapred to other (historical) sources and ones own feelings and intuition. It is not, however, the only source. I think the main difference between religion and science is that science tells of the objective world around us, but does not delve into the essence of things. Religion tends to do things the other way around. In any case, to me personally, spirituality is the source of all science and religion, whether one chooses to acknowledge it or not.


'The truth is spoken simply and clearly'.


""No words""
[  Edited by heyjme1 at   ]

819 Posts / 60M
     :   19yrs   :  
Angel Of Death

quote:
religion, for me, is a resource, like science is, to help guide. It should be treated, like science, with caution and be comapred to other (historical) sources and ones own feelings and intuition. It is not, however, the only source


Yes heyjme, and the problem arises when you take science to be the only source of wisdom, same is the case with religion, and by religion I mean the way it is presently practiced in a mostly non spiritual, righ and wrong way. Spirituality however is different, you can gain immense wisdom through it withought science, but depending solely on science on the other hand can make you knowlegable, but you will be largely devoid of wisdom.

Regarding the prophets, they were probably spitirtually enlightned, like Jesus had become one with God or quite close to it, so basically it was neither God speaking through them nor were they themselves speaking through their egos. It was the reality they had found, they had come close to the essence of all things. Also, was religion intially meant to be a organization or something? Jesus never compiled the Bible, nor did Muhammad compile the Quran.

A large part of trouble in religion can be attributed to makeshift 'caretakers' of religion. I have tried searching both the Quran and the Bible, but have yet to come across a verse which says Christians should be guided by priests and Muslims should be guided by Mullahs.
Also, did Jesus Christ ever declare that the name of his preaching was to be called christianity? Islam also, just simply means peace, or submission to God or something. The quran says that Jewisism, christianity and Islam were the same religion, continuations of each other according to the time. Maybe it is society which has made them seperate.

However, the thing I dislike about all religions are the verse such as 'the unbelievers sahll rot etrnally in hell' etc. Perhaps it doesn't matter wheather non beleivers will rot in hell or not, perhaps the point is that we are encouraged to do so, like children are made afraid of monsters and ghosts or concepts like santa claus, to make them learn and be better persons.


"I'll heal ur woundz I'll set u free, I m jesus christ on xtacy"

276 Posts / 38M
     :   21yrs   :  
Zato

quote:
God cannot do something that violates His own nature.


So you admitting that God can indeed not do anything?
Right.
Maybe the bible shouldn't use the word "Anything" then.

Either way, if I (the young person I am) can think of something God cannot do then I would rather not waste my time with him.


"Anything is Possible when you think illogically."

2 Posts / 34M
     :   19yrs   :  
ShoreBoy

Religion is a belief system designed to make someone a better person, or a community a better place to live, however it has been corrupted to influence and control people, and is now used as a powerful tool in controlling the masses.


"Teach Me"

819 Posts / 60M
     :   19yrs   :  
Angel Of Death

quote:
So you admitting that God can indeed not do anything?
Right.
Maybe the bible shouldn't use the word "Anything" then.


Again, the question of can God make a stone he can't lift is very very stuipid and irrelevant. Religion says God can do anything in this world.
Lets put it this way. Say there existed a world or universe where matter didn't exist. Now if you asked are the stones there red or blue...wouldn't it be pretty irellevant?


"I'll heal ur woundz I'll set u free, I m jesus christ on xtacy"

276 Posts / 38M
     :   21yrs   :  
Zato

I just think that when the bible used to word anything it was very wrong in doing so.
Anything is anything. Simple as that.


"Anything is Possible when you think illogically."

210 Posts / 42M
     :   33yrs   :  
PeteSmith

quote:
So you admitting that God can indeed not do anything?
Not at all.

Can a red square be a black circle? No of course not. Does that make the red square any less a red square. No. The "nature" if you like of the red square is that it has four corners.

Can we now please leave this poor piece of logic and get back to the topic.


""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"

276 Posts / 38M
     :   21yrs   :  
Zato

quote:
Not at all.


So he can create a object he can't lift then?
Make up your mind. The word anything applies to this situation.

quote:
Can a red square be a black circle? No of course not. Does that make the red square any less a red square. No. The "nature" if you like of the red square is that it has four corners.


So if something makes no sense, god can not do it?
I thought God could anything! lol
How can god be so powerful if he can't do anything.
Even if it makes no sense to me or you if he is truly powerful he should be able to do anything in any situation no matter what. He should not be limited which you are saying he is by not being able to make a red square a black circle.

quote:
Can we now please leave this poor piece of logic and get back to the topic.


My point is that it is poor logic. It makes no sense, and that is my whole point.


"Anything is Possible when you think illogically."

What is religion?
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