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Clear Definition #1

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90 Posts / 62M

27yrs

Strongclad

One thing I didn't address were issues of tolerance of others' beliefs. I mainly addressed moral bigotry in my last post.

To me, defense of the Gospel of Christ is of utmost importance to me as a believer. But I don't find it bigotry to try and convince someone with a different worldview that the claims of Christianity are true. Please pay attention to the fact that I didn't say "try to prove to someone that their beliefs are false."

Many worldviews hold similar belief structures as Christianity, and that's fine by me, but I don't have to believe an entire worldview as a whole, nor do I believe that it is intolerant or bigotry if I do so.

"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

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2824 Posts / 91M

28yrs

Decius

Hi Strongclad:

Thank you for your well thought-out perspective. And I do understand where you are coming from. However, as you stated:

quote:
changing a non-christians's actions is not God's plan for us.

quote:
Encouraging belief and trust in Him is

This is a contradiction to me... not by your statement but because I know this to be the preachings of the bible. One of your duties as a Christian is indeed to change the actions of sinners. Some Christians pursue this in less than peaceful manners, and some don't do it at all. I can tell by your soft tone that you are one of the few who attempt to truly inform rather than preach, so perhaps in regards to this concept you have picked the best method of fulfilling your duty as a Christian.

But that is not relevent to intolerance. Intolerance is not defined as the need to change those we are intolerant of... intolerance means "lack of acceptance". "Lack of acceptance" is, in essence, carrying the belief that another person is doing something wrong. If you subscribe to the beliefs in the bible and therefore in a Christian God, then you, by defnition, are intolerant of homosexuals.

By definition, that makes you a bigot... whether you carry the worst or best traits of a bigot, you are still a bigot, because you are intolerant of a type of person based on the group they are associated to.

Are we all bigots? To any extent that we are intolerant of another group due to their association, yes. However, I must personally state that I am the type of person that attempts to be understanding of everyone to the best of my ability. I do not defend my right to be intolerant of rapists, murderers, child molestors, or even Christians, despite how confused I feel they are.

What I mean is, I constantly attempt to empathize with those I may be intolerant of so that in the future I may prove to be tolerant and understanding of them. Does this mean I condone their behaviour? No... but I do not condemn it either without knowing with full factual evidence that what they do is "bad".

To be a bigot means, by definition, that one is intolerant of another group by association. This means a few things:

1. That the bigot is not a part of that group
2. Or, the bigot is a part of that group and therefore is intolerant of himself
3. The bigot is unable to empathize with the reasons behind why a person is a part of that group. To empathize would remove intolerance for then all actions and decisions made by the person would be understood.

Hence, if a Christian God is a bigot towards homosexuals, then a Christian God is not a homosexual, or is a homosexual and hates himself, or is not a homosexual and is unable to understand why a homosexual becomes a homosexual.

In any of these scenarios, God is flawed, which is a paradoxical statement and defies the definition of God.

If man is able to be intolerant and bigotted towards a group, it is because he is man and is unable to grasp the understanding and empathy of the group he is intolerant of due to his limitations as a man. If there is a God, he would, by definition, not be limited in this way.

Hence the God Christians believe in defies the definition of God, because he is bigotted. Therefore, a Christian God cannot exist.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

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2824 Posts / 91M

28yrs

Decius

I will go even further and then define that the only type of God that could exist would be one that was tolerant of everything and everyone, for that God would be a part of every group and therefore understand completely why everyone does everything.

Anything less is an incorrect use of the word "God", for it limits what God is.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

quote:
carrying the belief that another person is doing something wrong.

If you do not believe that someone is doing wrong then why would you bother to change them? Being intolerant is all about changing behavioural traits.

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If you subscribe to the beliefs in the bible and therefore in a Christian God, then you, by defnition, are intolerant of homosexuals.

And murderers, adulterers, thieves, and assorted other lawless people yes.

quote:
However, I must personally state that I am the type of person that attempts to be understanding of everyone to the best of my ability.

Being understanding has nothing to do with being intolerant. In my circle of friends I am by far the most intolerant person, however I am the most loyal, trustworthy and understanding one. I am only intolerant of behavioural traits not people themselves. My friends hate a lot of people while I the intolerant one will find reasons why those people are worthy of love.

quote:
Hence, if a Christian God is a bigot towards homosexuals, then a Christian God is not a homosexual, or is a homosexual and hates himself, or is not a homosexual and is unable to understand why a homosexual becomes a homosexual.

God is not homosexual because God is perfect He can not do anything imperfect. And how do you suppose homosexuals are so complex that they can outsmart God by their behaviours? That is by far way more limiting then any form of bigotry. You forget that love is possible even when you disapprove of any others actions. God does not hate homosexuals but He does hate their behaviour just as He does not hate the rapist but He hates the behaviour.

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

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2824 Posts / 91M

28yrs

Decius

quote:
If you do not believe that someone is doing wrong then why would you bother to change them? Being intolerant is all about changing behavioural traits.

It is not God's responsibility to change us. Man changes us. The circumstances of existance on this planet changes us. You claim to have seen God or that God may have personally changed you... I claim that it is your circumstance on this planet that has lead to that belief, which means that God did not change you... man did. God has no need to change you because God knows who you were, and who you were going to be right now when you were born, and he also knows who you will be when you die. If he doesn't then he is not God because he is limited.

quote:
Being understanding has nothing to do with being intolerant. In my circle of friends I am by far the most intolerant person, however I am the most loyal, trustworthy and understanding one. I am only intolerant of behavioural traits not people themselves. My friends hate a lot of people while I the intolerant one will find reasons why those people are worthy of love.

Nice try with the semantics. Worthy of love or not, you do not love them for you do not approve and are not accepting of them. They are unworthy of heaven, which means a Christian God rejects loving them based on their association to a group. If you are attempting to be as close to a Chrisitan God as possible, you are defying him by loving those that would be rejected in heaven. There is a large difference between acceptance/love and conditional acceptance/love: the latter is not acceptance/love.

quote:
God is not homosexual because God is perfect He can not do anything imperfect.

Hence homosexuals are imperfect and therefore less loveable, you Christian bigot.

quote:
And how do you suppose homosexuals are so complex that they can outsmart God by their behaviours? That is by far way more limiting then any form of bigotry.

Thank you for finally understanding my point. Him not understanding homosexuals IS bigotry, which is why it is impossible. God cannot hate homosexuality because God understands its existance on this planet fully.

quote:
You forget that love is possible even when you disapprove of any others actions. God does not hate homosexuals but He does hate their behaviour just as He does not hate the rapist but He hates the behaviour.

Again, you are trying to escape Christian bigotry by playing semantics. You do not love those you dissaprove of as much as those you approve of because those you dissaprove of have to change before they can be fully loved. Hence God and you love them LESS, which is no different than not loving them at all.

And it's not even about LESS... a Christian God does not love homosexuals AT ALL because they are not permitted in heaven. THeir actions are attached to who they are because a homosexual cannot enter heaven if he has the behaviour of a homosexual. Hence you are 100% incorrect in stating that a Christian God loves those that sin. He does not. He rejects them and does not love them, including their behaviour.

Because when they die, not only their behaviour is rejected from heaven.... THEY are.

God not being able to love everyone and everything selflessly limits God... which contradicts the definition of God.

Hence...

A Christian God cannot exist because it is limited due to its bigotry.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

quote:
It is not God's responsibility to change us.

God created us and either He changes us or He allows others to.

quote:
They are unworthy of heaven, which means a Christian God rejects loving them based on their association to a group.

You have obviously never even attempted to read the Bible. All of us were and are unworthy of God's love. He does not love us because we are good He loves us because He made us. If this was not the case there would be no Christianity. Why would Jesus die for a world that He hated? If He hated us then we would all just be dead.

quote:
Worthy of love or not, you do not love them for you do not approve and are not accepting of them.

It has nothing to do with disapproving of THEM it is their behaviours. Tell me Decius of the people (if any) that you love do you love absolutely every last detail about their behaviour? It is not empathy to simply accept a bad habit; you are telling me that if you disapprove of drinking heavily then you are incapable of loving alcoholics. You have a poor sense of love. My definition of love is completely open, I do not love people based on how they treat me or how good looking they are. I choose to neither love nor hate someone until I can understand their intentions (this does not mean that I will always love their behaviour).

quote:
You do not love those you dissaprove of as much as those you approve of because those you dissaprove of have to change before they can be fully loved. Hence God and you love them LESS, which is no different than not loving them at all.

YOU may not love people equally but this is probably because you seem to love based on actions rather than the actual person. Don't project your opinions on to me.

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

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2824 Posts / 91M

28yrs

Decius

Regardless of your continued attempts to reach for logic using semantics:

1. A person's behaviour is not seperate from who they are if they are judged based on their behaviour

2. It is pathetic that you hope to defend a Christian God's right to judge people based on my innability as a human to selflessly love every little thing about them. Your God must be one sorry jackass if his actions are justified by mine.

Hence:

A Christian God does not love homosexuals because they are not permitted in heaven.

A Christian God is intolerant towards a group based on their association of beliefs.

A Christian God's intolerance is the result of limited understanding.

A Christian God is therefore a Bigot.

Hence, the Christian concept of God is a myth, and is proven to be paradoxical, for God, by definition, is limitless.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

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2824 Posts / 91M

28yrs

Decius

You see, ethereal, this is the key point:

Limitless empathy leads to the dissolution of individualism. This means that two empathetic creatures who are limitless in their empathy would cease to exist as seperate creatures.

You say you love people but you do not if you do not empathize with them, by MY definition of love equating empathy and understanding.

Hence, if God is limitless then God can empathize with a man loving a woman, a woman loving a man, a man loving a man, and a woman loving a woman.

In fact, given God's limitless empathy he/she is in fact ALL those creatures. God is heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual because, by his limitless definition, he can empathize limitlessly with everything.

For God to judge anyone for anything is the assumption that God is unable to empathize with that behaviour or person, which is impossible for a limitless entity.

Hence, a Christian God simply can not exist.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

quote:
1. A person's behaviour is not seperate from who they are if they are judged based on their behaviour

They are judged based on behaviour but they are loved based on being human.

quote:
2. It is pathetic that you hope to defend a Christian God's right to judge people based on my innability as a human to selflessly love every little thing about them. Your God must be one sorry jackass if his actions are justified by mine.

I never tried to defend God based on you. What I was saying was that your concept of love is hopelessly flawed.

quote:
A Christian God does not love homosexuals because they are not permitted in heaven.

You are unreasonable. On a lesser level would you assume that if a parent offered a reward to a child for completing a task and the child choose not to do it then the parent must not love the child because they would not reward his bad behaviour?

quote:
A Christian God is intolerant towards a group based on their association of beliefs.

Yes.

quote:
A Christian God's intolerance is the result of limited understanding.

Just because you have limited understanding of God does not mean that He does. Maybe you or I cannot comprehend the things that He does but that is because it is we who are limited.

quote:
Hence, the Christian concept of God is a myth, and is proven to be paradoxical, for God, by definition, is limitless.

Decius you have only made up things that you can perceive as limits.

quote:
Limitless empathy leads to the dissolution of individualism. This means that two empathetic creatures who are limitless in their empathy would cease to exist as seperate creatures.

This may be true of humans but how can you say it is true of God?

quote:
You say you love people but you do not if you do not empathize with them, by MY definition of love equating empathy and understanding.

I empathize and understand the people that I love. This has nothing to do with becoming one with them. You do realize that we as humans can never be at one at best we will be two man and woman separate.

And nothing in any definition of empathy that I have seen says anything about accepting all behavioural traits. I can share emotions with people but I do not share all their behaviours or their reasons for being in that emotional state. You are saying that because my father is not an alcoholic that I cannot love my friend and empathize with him because his dad was.

quote:
In fact, given God's limitless empathy he/she is in fact ALL those creatures.

You only presume that because people try to be empathetic that God will have this trait. People sin and yet God does not and He does not have to sin in order to love us.

quote:
Hence, a Christian God simply can not exist.

Only because you have made up points to prove your argument. Just because your flawed version of God cannot exist does not mean that the Real God is not there.

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

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2824 Posts / 91M

28yrs

Decius

I see your problem clearly ethereal.

You are unable to fathom a God that escapes the social, emotional, and intellectual vices and insecurities that humans succumb to.

If you are unable to even fathom such a concept, you will not comprehend what I mean by a "limitless God". You attempt to define love, empathy, bigotry, and understanding by human standards. This is why you (even in your last post) continue to try to define God's limitations by mine, or a parent's, or lawmakers, or jailers. You attempt to state that empathy does not include understanding everything completely because that is impossible. For humans, yes, and you must attempt to understand what it would be like to empathize with someone or something with so much vigor that you cease to exist as an individual. This will give you a glimpse into the concept of "limitless love", the exact love only God would be able to provide.

All you have proven this whole time is that the Christian God is a bigot and that is justified because humans cannot escape being bigots.

And your attempts to question how I know what I know and that I could be wrong is the last bastion of desperation. If I started doing that with you, you'd start quoting the bible as if it is the proven word of God. We could both be wrong.

But i am statistically correct based on all the information contained in this thread, and you are statistically wrong.

The point remains:

The Christian God is a Bigot, as are all Christians. If you are a Christian, accept that you are a bigot. Do not be insulted if you are called a bigot, because you are a bigot. And unlike bigots that don't want to be bigots, you are proud of being a bigot.

Which is as legitimate as racism. We could be arguing about God considering black people "unworthy" and the discussion would be almost entirely identical. That's how sick and pathetic bigotted Christians are. They are nothing more than new age racists looking for something new to persecute.

I'm ignoring you from now on because you are unable/unwilling to conceptualize of a God that is actually superior to man in his ability to love.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

quote:
You are unable to fathom a God that escapes the social, emotional, and intellectual vices and insecurities that humans succumb to.

I already brought up the point that God does not necessarily act on human emotions. God is God. To criticise God's condemnation of homosexuality is the same as criticising His condemnation of murder or rape or any other crime. You therefore by accepting homosexuality you Decius accept murder and rape and all the rest. All these must be tolerated activities if we are to empathize with everyone.

And I was not justifying God's behaviour based on human behaviour I was simply using examples from this world. God is after all our Father so the parental example is the legitimate human example. Even Jesus compared God to an earthly father in order that we understand Him better.

quote:
Which is as legitimate as racism. We could be arguing about God considering black people "unworthy" and the discussion would be almost entirely identical.

Wrong again because race is a physical trait not a behavioural trait. Black people are not black because of what they do. Homosexuals on the other hand would cease to be homosexual the minute they stopped behaving in a homosexual manner.

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

quote:
I'm ignoring you from now on because you are unable/unwilling to conceptualize of a God that is actually superior to man in his ability to love.

You are the one who is trying to insist that God loves based on your concept of limitless empathy. How do you know that God will love the way you think all humans should love?

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

90 Posts / 62M

27yrs

Strongclad

tolerance: to allow to be or to be done without hinderance
bigot: one intolerantly devoted to his or her own prejudices or opinions.
empathy: as experiencing as one's own the feelings of another.

quote:
This is a contradiction to me... not by your statement but because I know this to be the preachings of the bible. One of your duties as a Christian is indeed to change the actions of sinners.

I can see how you might think this. The Bible does clearly tell of the apostles being sent out among the Jews making the claim, "Repent! For the kingdom of Heaven is near!" They were asking people to turn away from their actions and behaviors in favor of the life God would have them live. I think there are some differences in the way a person can define how one goes about changing another's actions though.

The Christians of today feel the need to quibble with and condemn every "pro-choicer" or gay rights advocate that crosses their path, and the Bible, although somewhat indirect about it, doesn't condone this kind of fanaticism in Christians and our use of moral beliefs. It's kind of hard to believe the Bible claiming otherwise when you see believers shouting fire and brimstone from the 'Planned Parenthood' parking lot and cheering when they scare an already frustrated, soon-to-be mother from even entering the building. I'll be honest, Christians are some of the stupidest, careless thinkers out there.

I do believe though, that there's a difference between tactically forcing someone to change their way of life, and claiming with love and understanding that according to God, someone's actions are wrong and that there is a better way. Even so, a Christian's time is not to be spent changing sinful behavior in those who don't believe. Who wants to be told that they are wrong if they have no reason to believe so? Our directive is to spread the "good news" so that those who do not believe can understand what it means to be a child of God. Although this understanding of the Kingdom and the love of God brings peace in many Christians lives, we are still not perfect, and we still sin. We try to edify our own and encourage godly life. This seems to be the model that the Bible claims Christians should follow.

And by definition, I would have to say that you are correct. Not being able to tolerate someone else's opinions or actions classifies me as a bigot.

I believe that there are a couple facets to this definition that I see not being considered though - the typical use of the word bigot, and the negative use of the word. Positively speaking I feel that your definition of bigotry is okay in the sense that it is clearly stating the facts - bigots are everyone who disagree with a person's ideas or group by association. Clearly you allude to the idea of bigotry (in what I define as the typical sense) when you make this comment:

quote:
I do not defend my right to be intolerant of rapists, murderers, child molestors, or even Christians, despite how confused I feel they are.

This, showing that you disagree - or the way you put it: 'do not empathize' - in some fashion with the beliefs of those belonging to said group because at said point in time you are not understanding there ideals.

On the other side of the spectrum of this term, is its negative connotation, that bigotry (disagreement of ideas or actions) is bad. Without disagreement, the human race wouldn't have gotten as far as it has technologically. I think this idea of bigotry is somewhat skewed.

If you consider my definitions above taken from the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, empathy is a state of mind in which one flatly agrees with the feelings or ideas of others. One who is not a bigot, by your definition, is one who is empathic to all opinions and groups by taking up association - or takes the feelings of everyone for one's own. Clearly you couldn't have meant that, did you?

Maybe our definitions of tolerance are different. As I defined above, tolerance is essentially standing out of the way of others' opinions or beliefs. People have the freedom and mind to choose, not to mention change their minds or draw reasonable conclusions. I don't think this term means that all beliefs are correct though, or how some would put it, relative. Some things are obviously consistent and true in our universe.

quote:
Hence the God Christians believe in defies the definition of God, because he is bigotted. Therefore, a Christian God cannot exist.

quote:
I will go even further and then define that the only type of God that could exist would be one that was tolerant of everything and everyone, for that God would be a part of every group and therefore understand completely why everyone does everything.

Anything less is an incorrect use of the word "God", for it limits what God is.

Just to be truthful, this is a misunderstanding of the "christian" God and His characteristics. There is no claim in christianity that God is unlimited, nor do I think there is a claim like this for any god outside of christianity. Maybe He is not limited in His power in the sense that He is powerful enough to create creation or know everything about everything there is to know. Maybe in this sense he is limitless, and this is how the Bible portrays Him. But Christians and Jews also portray the God of the Bible as confined to certain (and this is not a perfect phrase for it) laws of nature - or to be more adequate, laws of reason.

Sorry, this is long again, and I haven't had the chance to see if the rest of this thread has addressed these issues.

"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

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2824 Posts / 91M

28yrs

Decius

Strongclad: No need to read the rest of the thread as it has not progressed since its advent anyways.

I have read your post thoroughly.

In the beginning of your post you go on to express that many Christians go about "informing" others of the rules of Christianity in the wrong way. I agree with this, but this does not, in any way, detract from my earlier statement:

quote:
One of your duties as a Christian is indeed to change the actions of sinners.

You, yourself, have admitted that it is your job to spread the "good news", as you put it. But that is spinning the information of Christianity in a good light. What may be "good news" to you may be "bad news" to me, and therefore, if your job is to inform me of it then my statement stands true. You admit that it is one of your jobs to inform me of it.

quote:
that there's a difference between tactically forcing someone to change their way of life, and claiming with love and understanding that according to God, someone's actions are wrong and that there is a better way.

I did not say Christiianity preaches murdering and forcing someone to convert. I said:

quote:
One of your duties as a Christian is indeed to change the actions of sinners.

Which encompasses both tactfully forcing them, and claiming with love and understanding. Both acts are meant to change the actions of sinners, which defines "pro-active intolerance" (similar to the KKK and Nazis).

quote:
Without disagreement, the human race wouldn't have gotten as far as it has technologically

I don't agree with this statement at all. The causation of disagreement advancing our knowledge of technology does not give us any insight into what would happen to us if we were in agreement. I firmly believe that our lack of agreement has retarded our abilities to evolve technologically, not the opposite. Do you believe the US as a country has evolved more because it is united or would the individual states have surpassed that technological innovation if they were at war with one another? It is impractical to claim that a smaller group of people working for a common goal will surpass a larger group... let alone whilst expending resources on trying to defeat an enemy. Hence bigotry in any sense is bad for society.

I do not see the difference in your definitions of bigotry. Although i will re-state that unlike Christians, I am a bigot attempting not to be a bigot. Christians are bigots trying to make the rest of the world bigots. So there is compassion dealt to those that are consistently trying to overcome a handicap vs those that embrace it and try to flaunt it and make everyone else have it.

quote:
empathy is a state of mind in which one flatly agrees with the feelings or ideas of others

I have never heard of empathy being defined as such. Although the use of the word "flatly" lends to it a submissive acceptance of somoene else's beliefs which to me is very different than empathy.

quote:
Just to be truthful, this is a misunderstanding of the "christian" God and His characteristics. There is no claim in christianity that God is unlimited. Maybe He is not limited in His power in the sense that He is powerful enough to create creation or know everything about everything there is to know. Maybe in this sense he is limitless, and this is how the Bible portrays Him. But Christians and Jews also portray the God of the Bible as confined to certain (and this is not a perfect phrase for it) laws of nature - or to be more adequate, laws of reason.

Well, this I can't argue with. Here you state that he may be limitless or he may not be... we're not too sure. this grey area leaves Christians with enough leeway to expect just enough from "God" to not be dissapointed when it suits the belief.

I think for all intents and purposes, however, it is incorrect for Christians to refer to their "God" as the "God" since most people view "God" as limitless... And I'm sure you won't dissagree that most Christians do as well. It is important they understand that their God is flawed because he is a bigot, and therefore not limitless.

But I guess the conclusion then is:

The Christian God is bigotted and is not actually a limitless entity, and is not "God" by the traditionally accepted definition.

A Christian following this bigotted Christian God is therefore following a limited entity, which DOES not know eveyrthing there is to know about the universe.

"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

Clear Definition #1


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