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Can someone disprove this logic?

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1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

quote:
And is it not safer to say that man is both inherently evil and good, or do you discount the good in man entirely?

I will not deny that man is capable of good but as a rule man is naturally bent on doing evil. Evil is easier than good because one must consciously decide to do good where as acting on instinct often leads to evil.

To be dependant on God is not a bad thing. God has a history of providing the things that I need in life, and He has never done anything to let me down.

quote:
how hard would it be to ever accept you are wrong in your faith and beliefs?

If I had some kind of proof that I was wrong it would be easy to let go, but as mentioned above I have never been let down by God.

quote:
Any factual claims unsupported by evidence are speculation

As I've already said my belief is not first in the Bible it lies primarily in what I have seen God do in my life and others lives. After that I can justify my belief in the Bible because I know that it is the work of the God that I belief in.

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

3953 Posts / 48M

30yrs

Ironwood

quote:
Evil is easier than good because one must consciously decide to do good where as acting on instinct often leads to evil.

Why don't you explain what you believe evil is. Otherwise this can be taken no further.

And interestingly enough, I would have to note that there seems much instinct followed in your beliefs in your God.

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To be dependant on God is not a bad thing.

A deep and well supported argument to be sure.

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God has a history of providing the things that I need in life, and He has never done anything to let me down.

Besides providing that which exists around you, care to elaborate on what else God has provided for you? Instead of say, just making statements with no validation or corroboration of any sort?

Debate is hindered by random unsupported statements.

quote:
If I had some kind of proof that I was wrong it would be easy to let go, but as mentioned above I have never been let down by God.

And of course you have proof that you are right, correct? And yes, I do mean more than you simply saying so, as well as more than you deciding a natural event to be of God related significance to your belief.

quote:
As I've already said my belief is not first in the Bible it lies primarily in what I have seen God do in my life and others lives.

God? Or the people once they do something useful and try to be possitive? Or perhaps you can specify so I don't have to guess anymore.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

quote:
Why don't you explain what you believe evil is

Evil is selfishness. Evil acts for its own profit where as good acts on profiting others.

quote:
I would have to note that there seems much instinct followed in your beliefs in your God.

"Care to elaborate on that instead of say, just making statements with no validation or corroboration of any sort?"

God has saved my life physically at a time when there were no people around to do so. God removed the instrument of impending death. When I was younger my father was unemployed for quite some time and in all that time we never went hungry and once when we reached desperate times my dad found some bags of groceries and baby supplies that had been anonymously left in our garage. These are just a couple of the more significant events but having mentioned them I highly doubt they will mean anything to you. As I have mentioned before my experiences are my own and I know what they mean I can tell you but you won't get it unless something similar happens to you.

quote:
And of course you have proof that you are right/quote]

My proof is stated above and there is nothing natural about those two instances. Tell me what you would think if you something simply vanished? Or if as a needy stranger to a city someone left you all the supplies you needed most.
Besides that you have no proof to the negative so even if you don't believe my experiences you cannot disprove them.

[quote]God? Or the people once they do something useful and try to be possitive?

God often works through people but in my most significant experiences there were no people around so draw whatever conclusions you will from that.

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

772 Posts / 39M

25yrs

heyjme1

Evil is selfishness.
Good is selflessness.
The Bible says: do unto others as they would have done unto you.
That's the essence of purposeful religion.
You need your own guide of course and this is through understanding-science and religion and all other good knowledge.

http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/thrdid=47374-u-frmid=17

but that's all I have to say for it suffices most if not all problems in this world.

""No words""

3953 Posts / 48M

30yrs

Ironwood

quote:
Evil is selfishness. Evil acts for its own profit where as good acts on profiting others.

Others being human beings correct? This is a speciecentric based logic like most human logic. Selflessness of this design helps the human race which helps the self, therefore it is a selfish act meant for the survival of self.

Just as the Man in God's image is the same.

All acts of self preservation, eating, earning, baring children, etc. are selfish acts and therefore evil by this logic.

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God has saved my life physically at a time when there were no people around to do so. God removed the instrument of impending death.

Ambiguity does not allow for merit of claims, I would appreciate more clarity from those who so clearly believe. I do not wish do belittle any personal experience but I will most certainly add perspective.

quote:
When I was younger my father was unemployed for quite some time and in all that time we never went hungry and once when we reached desperate times my dad found some bags of groceries and baby supplies that had been anonymously left in our garage. These are just a couple of the more significant events but having mentioned them I highly doubt they will mean anything to you.

I have experienced such things, and they do have meaning, just not necessarily what you attribute them.

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As I have mentioned before my experiences are my own and I know what they mean

Oh? So you understand God's ways now do you?

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Tell me what you would think if you something simply vanished?

What did you see vanish, did you witness its vanishing? How old were you and what were the circumstances involved?

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

quote:
All acts of self preservation

You are over generalizing, not all acts of self preservation are selfish. If you have responsibility over people like children for example it would be selfish (and evil) to simply let yourself die and leave them to fend for themselves. Procreation is not selfish because raising children involves self sacrifice.

quote:
I would appreciate more clarity from those who so clearly believe

How much more clear can I be? Something was threatening my life and it was removed temporarily from its location.

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Oh? So you understand God's ways now do you?

I understand what God has revealed to me but not over night that near death experience took me over four years to fully understand.

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What did you see vanish, did you witness its vanishing?

The object of impending death is not relevant and I did not see it vanish but five minutes earlier it was present then it was gone and it was back a few hours later.

Also you have not answered my question about your quote

quote:
I would have to note that there seems much instinct followed in your beliefs in your God.

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

3953 Posts / 48M

30yrs

Ironwood

quote:
You are over generalizing, not all acts of self preservation are selfish.

SELF preservation, you are incorrect.

As for offspring, they are a part of self, you'll figure this out when you become a parent, besides that, preservation of our species is selfish, in terms of the whole as well as individually, we know we cannot survive alone, SELF preservation requires the preservation of the species, like I said.

Selfish. And ego as well as speciecentric.

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How much more clear can I be? Something...

You can't be serious, SOMETHING?, did you or did you not witness its vanishing, what was this something?

You have nothing to fear by answering other than facing any falsehoods of your own.

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I understand what God has revealed to me but not over night that near death experience took me over four years to fully understand.

Since you know so clearly how long it took, you must be able to tell what it is you understand, why it took so long to do so, why don't you stop beating around the bush already.

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The object of impending death is not relevant

Bullshit.

quote:
and I did not see it vanish

Thank you

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but five minutes earlier it was present then it was gone and it was back a few hours later.

This could even describe the sun, and this object I'm afraid is quite relevant to substantiate the claim you have associated with its vanishing at God's behest.

quote:
Also you have not answered my question about your quote

Was this the question? "Care to elaborate on that instead of say, just making statements with no validation or corroboration of any sort?" If so, I sorry, I had no idea you were using me to ask your question.

In reference to you exhibiting instinct in your belief, I was mocking you. The reason being is because if you don't believe your belief came from the teaching of others, especially in its specific accordance with the bible, then you are left with either you making it up, which you do not claim, or feeling an instinctual desire to believe in or acknowledge a higher power, which is a justifiable claim corroborated by research into the subject.

However, the justification of the bible is not, and hence the mockery intwined with my valid point that would by your logic be leading you towards evil for indulging your instinctual desire to believe in a God.

I think those who call instinct a path to evil spit in the face of the God who gave them to us and all his creatures.

To deny God is the greatest evil or sin, to deny that we are what God created, "intelligent" animals, is to deny God the glory of his creation.

People who choose to decide that they will be something other than what God made them and even call his creation evil are denying God.

And quite frankly, if a God made man inherently evil, then punishes them for it, there is something wrong with that God. But that's what you believe.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

I am going to deny you that much access into my own life. You would not believe me if I told you, and I would not expect you to. This faith is not based on people but rather on God Himself.

I understand that God lives and that we can have conversations with Him (not necessarily of the audible kind)

As for your point on instinct you are still incorrect. My quest for God is not instinctive. We do not first seek out God, God seeks us out all we need do is open our eyes. Once He connects with us then we begin seeking to know Him more. Besides I did not say that instincts were all evil I said that following them often leads to evil.

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

3953 Posts / 48M

30yrs

Ironwood

quote:
I am going to deny you that much access into my own life. You would not believe me if I told you, and I would not expect you to. This faith is not based on people but rather on God Himself.

Hopefully you know why you are dodging my question, I'm pretty sure I do.

This faith? This faith is not what was in question in terms of identifying the SOMETHING in your story. If you don't have enough faith or don't believe enough in your story to simply tell, and perhaps help others by sharing your experiences and revelations, then either your faith is not worthy of words, or you are not worthy of what you have faith in. Like honesty, to yourself and others. If you are lying to yourself, then nothing you say can be an honest truth in reference to the lie in question.

This you will have to live with, not me, I'm familiar with you and your ways, for more reasons than one. Don't be afraid to admit uncertainty, be afraid to lie if anything, that is if you hope to adhere to your own chosen moral standards.

quote:
I understand that God lives and that we can have conversations with Him (not necessarily of the audible kind)

And if you lived in the wrong place at the wrong time you would feel differently for you would be a blashpemer and surely put to death.

But tell yourself what you like, because there is a great likelyhood that you are at least partially if not totally correct. But don't be surprised when I tell you that you are merely repeating the words of others.

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We do not first seek out God

I'd love to know how you think that not to be speculative.

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Besides I did not say that instincts were all evil I said that following them often leads to evil.

Yes, I know, you really don't have to remind me of your ambiguity, I'm choking on it.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

I'm dodging your question because the circumstances surrounding the event in question are quite painful to me and I do not wish to open a wound in front of the world just to have you mock me some more.

I'm not surprised that others may have stated my beliefs and no doubt in much clearer ways as I have never been that good with words.

Being put to death does not bother me for no matter how incapable I am of expressing what I believe that doesn't change the intensity of my belief.

I did not say that my assessment was not speculative but in my experience and from hearing about other's experiences this is the conclusion that I have drawn. Most of the Christians that I know were not looking for God when they "found' Him. One guy I know found God while in jail for armed robbery, another while he was a member of a notorious biker gang, and another while he was convinced that no God could possibly exist.

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

3953 Posts / 48M

30yrs

Ironwood

quote:
I'm dodging your question because the circumstances surrounding the event in question are quite painful to me and I do not wish to open a wound in front of the world just to have you mock me some more.

I wasn't mocking you on your personal experiences, you were getting snide while displaying faulty logic. I am asking you to specify, because claims such as yours are important and must be properly accounted and explained, if needed or possible.

You've already "opened" the wound, have you not? You are simply omitting detail relevant to other's ability to understand your story.

The fact is when I got you to clarify, you had to change your stance on your story, that's unfortunate, not because it matters if you lie or exaggerate to us, but to yourself and especially when addressing this as a basis of faith.

I understand the pain of past events and recalling them, but it is you that brought them up, I'm just asking for clarification on ambiguous details.

quote:
Being put to death does not bother me for no matter how incapable I am of expressing what I believe that doesn't change the intensity of my belief.

Part of my point was that I doubt you would believe the things you have come to believe in a different environment, exposed to different teachings and societal rules. Not to test your martyrdom.

quote:
Most of the Christians that I know were not looking for God when they "found' Him. One guy I know found God while in jail for armed robbery, another while he was a member of a notorious biker gang, and another while he was convinced that no God could possibly exist.

None of this means they were not searching, one just so happens to mean just the opposite.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

772 Posts / 39M

25yrs

heyjme1

I just wonder if sometimes questioning too much is a symptom that negates us getting anywhere (both ourselves and others) better. Question everything; I say no! I say there must at some point be a limit.

I'm finding it hard to explain this but this sums it up quite well:

"Everyone should be married. If it is successful, you will become happy. If not, you will become a philosopher."

I'll let you extrapolate beyond.

""No words""

1347 Posts / 39M

23yrs

etherealmeekle

I'll give this another go, the reason I hate giving all the detail to this story is because I hate to inform people of my suicidal past. So much so that yesterday when I had tried to write out the story I was over come with shame and recurring suicidal thoughts. I was in the habit of cutting myself and watching the blood flow. And I had a knife that I always kept in my desk drawer, I had used it earlier that night so I knew for certain where it was when I got some particularly bad news Anyways I decided that that night was a good night to die so I wrote a quick note and went for my knife. To my surprise and great confusion it was not there, nor anywhere else in my room. So after I had searched up and down for it I became incredibly tired and just went to sleep. When I awoke I had the urge to look in my drawer and there was the knife as though it had never moved. There was something very significant about that event and I have never come close to attempting suicide since. I did not attribute it to God until much later though. It took many years of more subtle events to get me to really find God.

quote:
I doubt you would believe the things you have come to believe in a different environment

If it is true that I had to search for God then living in a different environment would lead to some different beliefs. But if it is true that God finds us then none of it would be any different.

quote:
None of this means they were not searching,

But if you are searching without knowing that you are searching could it be that God is causing you to search?

"Speak out, even if what you have to say is unpopular"

3953 Posts / 48M

30yrs

Ironwood

I appreciate your hesitant but triumphant candor.

Do not let your past shame you, you are not alone your struggles, and now someday you will be able to help another in a way others may not be able to relate.

Find peace and love and the desire to share them where and how you can, I simply ask you as I do others to be wary when referencing faith in claims as facts when there is already a deadly struggle to find truth in the world.

quote:
If it is true that I had to search for God then living in a different environment would lead to some different beliefs. But if it is true that God finds us then none of it would be any different.

But if you are searching without knowing that you are searching could it be that God is causing you to search?

And now you have learned the value and proper placement of the word IF in debates of theory.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

72 Posts / 38M

25yrs

for the better

ethereal - considering your strong strong faith, i am just wondering why suicide was even the least bit acceptable for you? as for 'faith in claims as facts'... not one aspect of religion is factual. Yes it all depends on millions of factors upbringing, family,education,personality, etc etc. so sometimes keeping your personal beliefs to yourself is the best thing to do. ( i think.. hehe) God does search for us, all of us but it depends on your ability to be able to acknowlegde his spirit as well as our own.

Can someone disprove this logic?


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