Remarkable State of the Union Speech...

That's such a naive statement. Yeah the Arabs were just minding their own business and working for peace with their beloved Jewish neighbors. Give me a break! Just because one is forced to use pre-emptive force does not make you the aggressor. What's amazing is that you know damn well that the Israelis have tried to live in peace with their neighbors when the same can not be said of the Arabs yet you continue this asinine defense of the truly hateful and tyrannical groups. What gives?

And I know damn well they are continuously taking civilian land which is not theirs.

Israel can no longer use security as an excuse for jewish-nationalist land-grabbing.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

"The Israeli Gaza Strip barrier is a separation barrier along the armistice line of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War between the Gaza Strip and Israel. The barrier is one of several constructed by various governments in a variety of locations to prevent the unauthorized movement of people across the barrier."

I see nothing wrong with this.

"In October 2003, the region between the barrier and the Green Line was declared a special military area. Although all Israelis and all Jews regardless of nationality can enter the region freely, Palestinians can enter only with special permits even if they are residents of one of the dozen or so Arab villages in the region. Many who tried to obtain permits were refused them."

I see everything wrong with this.

(both according to Wikipedia)

Also, look at the path already taken, and the path it will take (according to the IDF) clearly takes Arab civilian land.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/03/middle_east_israel0s
_security_barrier/img/2.jpg

This form of serb-style nationalist land-grabbing and ethnic cleansing is unnacceptable.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"
[  Edited by Angelfire at   ]

"And I know damn well they are continuously taking civilian land which is not theirs. Israel can no longer use security as an excuse for jewish-nationalist land-grabbing."

Of course they can and should. Dont be a moron. Why would Israel throw away its best card? Israel uses such tactics to forces the Arabs to agree upon a settlement where much of that land will be returned. And as it stands now all of that land is Israeli - even Palestine is an Israeli created state (in the sense that Israel is the ultimate sovereign).

I'm not saying *administering* land.

I am saying the Israelis are evicting/killing Palestinians so that they can colonize with Jews who have NO INTENTION OF LEAVING.

This is called THEFT, it is the root cause of the continuing conflict and leads to an untenable refugee situation. Not to mention to lots of unemployed, unhoused frustrated disenfranchised young men with nothing to lose.

It is evil and should not be supported by the US government nor condoned by the US's huge amounts of aid and lone vetoing at the security council (even the UK does not support Israel's actions).

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

For God's sake is colonization and permanent land theft of another nation OK?

It is evil. The Israelis can be evil if they want, but the US should not support it. And the US certainly shouldn't be naming a so-called "Axis of Evil" while Israel continues its serb-style policies of segregation and theft.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

My God man dont you get it - ITS THEIR LAND! The Arabs lost all rights to it the second they abonded the UN decision of 1948 and attacked Israel and continued to war upon Israel in the following decades.

The fact that the Israelis didnt evict all Arabs and are willing to allow for the creation of a Palestiian state shows which side is benevolent.

I am mind-boggled by your fantastic faith in the 'long-sufferring innocent' Arabs.

The fact that arabs attacked them more than 30 years ago does NOT give them the right to commit ethnic cleansing on them today!

(nevermind that, again, Israel attacked them twice, once in response to an embargo, once tagging along with Britain/France)

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

You just dont get it - it's THEiR land. Israel can do what ever they want with it. They can settle it how they see fit. Or they can allow it to leave their sovereign control and hand it over to Arabs that refuse to undeclare their intention of destorying every single living Israeli.

You continue to make this laughable argument that the Arabs have a right to that land. They dont - they lost that right because of their agression and refusal to live in peace as neighbors.

You recall that Iraq attacked Kuwait and Iran.

Does that mean the Iran (or the USA) has the right to kick out all Iraqis and colonize the place?

However, I think we have a fundamental difference of morals here. You think ethnic cleansing is OK in certain conditions, I think its evil. If you think the USA should condone ethnic cleansing and bantustans, well fine.

Its just that, foreign nations should fear the USA as a bringer of Jewish fascism, racial segregation and bantustans. More so, your USA represents one not for freedom or justice, but for vengeance. Vengeance because you think 9/11 justifies the killing of 10 thousand Afghans or 30 thousand Iraqis.

The USA you represent is one I certainly do not want to be a part of, it is a USA which all free nations should fear and attempt to destroy.

I like to think you are not representative of the USA.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

quote:

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You recall that Iraq attacked Kuwait and Iran.
Does that mean the Iran (or the USA) has the right to kick out all Iraqis and colonize the place?

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quote:

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I like to think you are not representative of the USA.

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"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

I like to think most Americans are just ignorant of what is happening in Palestine, or simply more worried about the 9/11 scare to worry about other nations.

I don't think many Americans believe explicitly that ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Palestine is OK.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

I'm glad you can be so high-minded now but your country practiced ethnic cleansing and colonization when there were no threats to its continued existence. Oh yes, I forgot that was the past.

If Kuwait had somehow reversed the tide and carried the war back to Iraq and defeated Iraq it would have been their right to control all of the land in Iraq. If they then chose to expel Iraqis that they felt would have caused insurrections that would have also been their right. To the victor goes the spoils. The reason this is good is because it is a deterrent for war and a punishment to those that start wars. Your morality may be good intentioned however the road to hell is paved with good intentions. It is naive and thus, ultimately, dangerous.

And when it comes to whether I am representative of a majority of Americans regarding Israel I hate to disappoint you but I am. In fact, many of us would not have tolerated the evil aggression from the Arabs the way the Israelis have. Nor would you Brits but hey ya'll excel at double standards.

I do not think your code of conduct can ever lead to peace.

Only to retaliation after counter-retaliation. People have rights, even if they lose a war. Arrogant Frenchmen thought that winning WW1 gave them the right to rape Germany, they learned their lesson after WW2.

" The reason this is good is because it is a deterrent for war and a punishment to those that start wars."
This has proven historically false. This is not effective deterrent. You are foolish if you think exterminating/expelling the Palestinians will lead to peace. On the contrary, it is exactly this sort of barbaric behaviour which lead to 9/11. Next time it might not be a couple of little towers, next time it might be a bomb. America needs to uphold moral standards to lead, medieval standards of barbarity will isolate the USA, in fact, it is isolating the USA (see Algeria, Northern Ireland, Yugoslavia, South Africa for how ethnic cleansing almost always leads to civil war).

It is not only fundamentally evil, it also doesn't work (nuclear deterrent is 1000x more effective). The only situation I can think of which ethnic cleansing still lead to peace is the expelling of Germans of Prussia by the Soviets. And this was only because Germany had lost all legitimacy and because Germany was smothered by every single World Powers of the day.

Ethnic cleansing almost never leads to peace, it is not an effective deterrent, it leads to civil war and unnecessarily punishes innocent civilians. Besides that, it is fundamentally evil, if the United States supports it, all people of decency should oppose the United States.

"Nor would you Brits but hey ya'll excel at double standards."
Stop bringing my nationality into it. Do I support British policies? Do I support past British policies? No. Perhaps I'll start blaming you for the Native American genocide and the American imperial conquests of Cuba and the Phillipines (or Panama for that matter).

I think Northern Ireland is a mess, I think Britain was wrong to give the majority lethal powers in Northern Ireland. I think Britain and Ireland are both trying very hard to stop the conflict.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

Out of curiosity, if Iraq managed (I know its impossible) to beat the US Army back and conquer the continental US, would you think it would be morally acceptable for Iraqis to perform ethnic cleansing on Americans?

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"