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Was Christ really resurrected?
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233 Posts / 66M
     :   42yrs   :  
Dreamer

Well, works, are another word for charity. If you look at the ultimate law given by Jesus, to Love thy neighbor as thyself, it all comes round back to 'doing' unto others as you would have done to yourself.
If someone says they believe, but they will not help others who are in need, what good their faith?

Thanks Okcity.



quote:
Some would say that you have not rightly devided the word of truth. That was a part of a different dispensation, the dispensation of the law.

You are saved by faith, not works, less any man should boast. (whatever


May I interpret that quote?
That 'lest any man should boast' means that the act of 'giving unto oneself' in acts of charity, but show it to the world and boast, then it is a useless act of charity because they did it for reward from those who congratulate them.

There is a quote in the bible, but because I lack time, I will quote it from top of my head.
"Your reward is great in heaven for your acts, but if you seek reward on earth, you shall have no reward in heaven."

Something very close to that. Wish I had the time. Remember, the language used then as compared to now gives us 'confusion'. Which is to say why we have so many different interpretations.

And he was saying, Faith will save you, if you MUST brag about what you have done for others, it will not be your saving force, but instead the fact you believe.

We all know many cannot restrain themselves when they feel so good about their actions they must tell others.

Do you understand where I am coming from?
Thanks again.


"Even though is difficult, I can still dream."

2203 Posts / 66M
     :   49yrs   :  
okcitykid

I like what you believe.

But it is not the common Christian belief, at least, not what I remember. Surely you have gotten into heated arguements with others over this, or maybe your disposition has made it possible for you to avoid this.

I think Mother Theresa and Ghandi were saved and other greats who did not fall into the common christian belief system but still did great works. There works were faith.

Ghandi who would not confess any religion preached and followed Jesus like no confessing Christian I've ever seen. He proved that the teachings of Jesus actually work by freeing India by "Turning the other cheek."

Anyways - I like what you believe.


"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

233 Posts / 66M
     :   42yrs   :  
Dreamer

Thank you, again Okcity. I am nothing without the knowledge given me.

But, another thing you mention is Mother Theresa and Ghandi. Both sacrificed for the good of their fellow humans.

Mother Theresa gave her entire life to charity. She came from a wealthy family who disowned her and left her out of their will because she choose to become a sister.
Her life was all about charity, and acts.
Ghandi sacrificed his life for the good of his country. He did so with reverence for God, and fasting. Incidently, fasting and prayer will give you many miracles.

Both were good people. And served the Lord with unselfish actions and promoted love rather than self centeredness.
I too believe they were saved.


"Even though is difficult, I can still dream."

1816 Posts / 67M
     :   56yrs   :  
cturtle

quote:
The bible says that Jesus went up some tower to his followers, and first they grew scared and thought that he was a spirit, but the jesus told them that 'look at me, I have flesh and bones, and a spirit has no flesh and bone', thus trying to convince them that he was alive. Then to further prove this, he asked for and ate food and drink. I dont think a spirit needs food.

Good question Angel but giving scriptural references will only lead you back to the same place: do you accept or deny the creditablity of the written accounts of those who witnessed the events.
Yes it is written that a couple disciples were walking down the road. When a stranger walking along in that general direction interacted with them, a limited interaction one would have with other wayfarers. (remember that they were in fear of being exposed as disciples of Jesus) Which would tend to imply they didn't recognze Him because He did not have the same features? On the other hand before His death upon the cross, there are several instances in which those seeking His life or to imprison Him. Were confounded (became confused) & were unable to lay hold of Him?
Various threads have touched upon this issue of body & spirit.
Note the thread on soul in which distinctions were advanced about ghost being a disembodied spirit (soul) I am not aware of any scripture which directly states it but evidently the prevailing idea; God sent angels which took on human form, the consumption of food or drink was a factor for recognition of such beings. Therefore His partaking of food & drink was to reassure them that He had indeed returned as anembodied (soul) spirit thus a resurrected body or physical life form.
If you are asking the question in relation to the question raised about incarnation vs resurrection? That is still an open debate. Dreamers defining has some problems which I tend to outweigh those produced by the other definition that was given.


"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."
[  Edited by cturtle at   ]

1816 Posts / 67M
     :   56yrs   :  
cturtle

quote:
Transfigured body is a glorious body received when entering heaven.
Resurrection; the rising again from the dead; the resumption of life by the dead; as, the resurrection of Jesus Christ; the general resurrection of all the dead at the Day of Judgment.
*At the resurrection of the last judgement our souls reunite with the body, and the body shall be perfect.
Reincarnation; the false teaching we shall have another embodiment and our souls return to earth again to relive life until we perfect our souls or supposedly learn what we must accomplish.

I remember making an analogy to cars but may be I should have used motorcycles? Harleys have a long standing admiration among bike riders, who smirk at those who ride imitations but even as Harley Davison was to put out a bike without the particular vibration & sound of its' parcular engine configuration, it is not accepted as a Harley.
To say that is the same yet different can be seen as a paradox at least. In the DNA string, I asked what would constitute a species . . . if a chimp was to develope the ability to speak & process information at a level equal to or greater than man & it was to pass these traits on genetically then would it constitute a new species?


"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

233 Posts / 66M
     :   42yrs   :  
Dreamer

Let me chronoligically state the soul metamorphosis.

We die. Our soul becomes transfigured (Glorified) unto our reward by entrance into heaven.

We then await the Last Day of Judgement, and the Resurrection of the Bodies. (The mortal body) in which the soul is reunited to the now eternally resurrected body. Both perfected.

If you are questioning the reference to ghosts.
Matthew 27; 52
And when the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep arose ; and coming forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they came into the holy city, and appeared to many.

Tombs opened, meaning in the spiritual world.
They are called Saints because they were alive in Christ, and judged to enter heaven. Their bodies were transfigured. (Souls are what we call these transfigured bodies)
Note where they came to the city and appeared to many.
We call spirits who exist outside the physical realm, ghosts.








"Even though is difficult, I can still dream."

1816 Posts / 67M
     :   56yrs   :  
cturtle

Actually, No I wasn't but reviewing what understandings and opinions given might be worth the effort.
Not being Catholic, I was taught that infant baptism is not necessary. Children are innocent of sin until they come of age to make (understand) the implications of their actions.

quote:
{Hebrew Tradition} They are not under the Law (of Moses) until they are given the Law. {unlike our system of law}
But because of the fear of parents during the middle ages produced by high infant mortality, this was done.

Does this mean then that infants & chidren shall remain eternally young? What of the elderly, shall we remain in the perpetually physical age of our death?

Well, I did say there were some problems with your definition given in resurrection vs incarnation.
Seeking to confound Jesus, they came to Him asking
'A woman had eight(?) husbands (each having died before the next) in heaven, whose wife shall she be?'


"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

233 Posts / 66M
     :   42yrs   :  
Dreamer

quote:
I was taught that infant baptism is not necessary. Children are innocent of sin until they come of age to make (understand) the implications of their actions.

quote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
{Hebrew Tradition} They are not under the Law (of Moses) until they are given the Law. {unlike our system of law}
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------

But because of the fear of parents during the middle ages produced by high infant mortality, this was done.

Does this mean then that infants & chidren shall remain eternally young? What of the elderly, shall we remain in the perpetually physical age of our death?

Well, I did say there were some problems with your definition given in resurrection vs incarnation.
Seeking to confound Jesus, they came to Him asking
'A woman had eight(?) husbands (each having died before the next) in heaven, whose wife shall she be?'


The Hebrew law had been converted and changed, if you were following christianity.

Acts 2;36~41
"Therefore, let ALL the house of Isreal know most assuredly that God has made both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you have crucified."
Now on hearing this they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the Apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
But Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptised EVERY ONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise AND TO YOUR CHILDREN AND TO ALL who are far off, even TO ALL whom the Lord our God calls to Himself."
(*God does call children...correct? )
And with very many other words he bore witness, and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this perverse generation."
Now they who received his word were baptised, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.


Now, when you question the age of understanding, and receiving the Holy Spirit, one must understand that the church of Roman Catholicism has confirmation for children when they acquire understanding. This is called Confirmation. Confirming their faith and their baptism.
(*Note~all laws have remained the same and in tradition since the time of the apostles, and this is why)
Acts 8; 15~20
On their (Peter and John) arrival they prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for as yet he had not come upon any of them, but they had only been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. But when Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of the Apostles hands, he offered them money, saying, "Give me also power, so that anyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
But Peter said to him, "Thy money go to destruction with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money."


Now for the resurrection....
1 Corinthians 15; 35-
But someone will say; "How do the dead rise? Or with what kind of body do they come?" Senseless man, what thou thyself sowest is not brought to life, unless it dies. And when thou sowest, thou dost not sow the the body that shall be, but a bare grain, perhaps wheat or something else. But GOD gives it a body even as he has willed, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, another of beasts, another of birds, another of fishes. They are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but of one kind is the glory of the heavenly, of another kind the glory of the earthly. There is ONE glroy of the sun, and another of the glory of the moon, and another of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So also with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown in corruption RISES in incorruption (MADE PERFECT) what is sown in weakness rises in power; what is sown a natural body rises a SPIRITUAL BODY....!





"Even though is difficult, I can still dream."

233 Posts / 66M
     :   42yrs   :  
Dreamer

1 Corinthians 15; 50-
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood can obtain no part in the kingdom of God, neither shall corruption have any part in incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall all indeed rise but we shall not all be changed --- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise incorruptible and we shall be changed. For this corruptible body MUST put on incorruption, and this mortal body MUST put on immortality, then shall come to pass the word that is written, "Death shall be swallowed up in vcitory! O death, where is thy victory? death where is thy sting?
Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of the sin is the law. But thanks be to God who has given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

One life, one death, and a changed body. A reunion of a perfect body with a perfect soul.

Is this helpful?


"Even though is difficult, I can still dream."

1816 Posts / 67M
     :   56yrs   :  
cturtle

Nicely done Dreamer, I really liked the portion

quote:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood can obtain no part in the kingdom of God, neither shall corruption have any part in incorruption.
quote:
They are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but of one kind is the glory of the heavenly, of another kind the glory of the earthly.
quote:
So also with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown in corruption RISES in incorruption (MADE PERFECT) what is sown in weakness rises in power; what is sown a natural body rises a SPIRITUAL BODY....!

Wanting to review the text that you had given but I seemed to have remembered it wrong. I went to Philemon by mistake but it did prove interesting reading. Checking your reference to 1st Corinthians, I noted this author’s thoughts on resurrection inserted page 1799 of the Full Life Study Bible.

(5) When believers receive their new bodies, they put on immortality (1 Cor. 15:53). Scripture indicates at least 3 purposes for this:
(a) so that believers may become all that God intended for humans at creation{cf.1 Cor.2:9};
(b) so that believers may come to know God as fully as He wants them to know Him (John 17:3):
(c) so that God may express His Love to His Children as He desires (John 3:16; Eph. 2:7; 1 John 4:8-16).


"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."
[  Edited by cturtle at   ]

233 Posts / 66M
     :   42yrs   :  
Dreamer

quote:
[5) When believers receive their new bodies, they put on immortality (1 Cor. 15:53). Scripture indicates at least 3 purposes for this:
(a) so that believers may become all that God intended for humans at creation{cf.1 Cor.2:9};
(b) so that believers may come to know God as fully as He wants them to know Him (John 17:3):
(c) so that God may express His Love to His Children as He desires (John 3:16; Eph. 2:7; 1 John 4:8-16).


I see nothing wrong with what you quoted. But curious what you are trying to say.

I am going to assume, you discovered how we become transfigured at death of our mortal bodies, and become perfect once again, before the eyes were opened in the garden of eden and humans 'learned good and bad' and brought death into the world.

Our bodies become perfect again, in Jesus Christ, because he has opened life to us once again, by dying and opening the doors to heaven.


"Even though is difficult, I can still dream."

1816 Posts / 67M
     :   56yrs   :  
cturtle

Not really sure of what you are saying so back to distinctions between reincarnation & resurrection.
Does resurrection meam just the physical body or/and the spiritual body?
{resurrection of the physical or the spiritual or both}


"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

233 Posts / 66M
     :   42yrs   :  
Dreamer

Scenerio;

Man dies a mortal death here on earth. He is taken in the form of a transposed SPIRIT to unite in heaven with other spirits of his loved ones.....his spirit has a SPIRITUAL body,,,,that which is transposed. NOT the earthly mortal body, which is left to decay.

Ok, Man is in heaven. He is enjoying his eternal life immensely as he awaits the 'reunion' of his spirit to his MORTAL body at the LAST JUDGEMENT and the body's RESURRECTION. WHEN his transposed spirit REUNITES to a transposed body...to be in life ever lasting and perfection.

This is the absolute clearest I can make it. I think.

Body + Spirit = Mortal life
Body - Spirit = Mortal death

Heaven = Transposed "Spiritual Bodies" in waiting.
Resurrection = Reunion of a perfected and now IMMORTAL body (WE once occupied as a mortal) at last judgement to the perfected spirit.

Life everlasting = what we were before, but this time, in perfection.

As was the original plan in the garden of Eden. NO further testing necessary. ...in other words, no forbidden fruits, or otherwise.

Just complete love and happiness, without pain anywhere to be found.


"Even though is difficult, I can still dream."

1816 Posts / 67M
     :   56yrs   :  
cturtle

Well if that is as clear as you can put it.
I will assume that you are saying that resurrection is of the physical body only? Do I note a bit of change of wiew?
Life is or exists in at least 3 states? Physical, Spiritual & the Soul?
The physical body is the container of the spirit, being intertwined with the physical being.
Physical death is the separation of the body & the spirit or soul?
Spiritual death is the separation from GOD & the circle of life or as a living soul? To exist without existances eternally?


"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."
[  Edited by cturtle at   ]

233 Posts / 66M
     :   42yrs   :  
Dreamer

yes indeed.

The physical body is risen from the dead on the last judgement, reunites with the soul (Spiritual body) and lives happily ever after.

That is the Resurrection. (For all average folks.... )


"Even though is difficult, I can still dream."

Was Christ really resurrected?
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