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Cliqueless

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2810 Posts / 89M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

Cliqueless [+ favourites]

I recently visited an organization's website called "Stormfront" (http://www.stormfront.org). It's a "white power" website, but doesn't seem to preach hatred but rather pride in being white.

As I browsed their message boards I immediately perused the "Opposing Views" forum to see how unwelcomed ideas are welcomed.

After reading for a while, i had an epiphany.

I don't believe anyone can dissagree with the fact that there exist extremely coherent and intelligent "white supremists". Similarly, I doubt anyone can dissagree that there also must exist genius-like "black supremists".

So then i started wondering... how could two hypothetically intelligent people have such conflicting beliefs?

And it occurred to me that anyone who is incredibly intelligent, no matter what their beliefs, will indeed get along with anyone else similarly intelligent.

Back to the boards... as I browsed responses to criticism of white power it became apparent there there are two different types of responses to unpopular beliefs (note that this seems to exist not only on message boards, but in society and discussions, and over a wide variety of tabooed subjects).

The first kind of response, which generally is the most popular and common, is group-based bashing. Unintelligent responses that attack one specific point made which declare the speaker stupid. Personal attacks and attempts to make the poster insecure are generally the motives behind such posts.

The second kind, which is rare and might exist once in an entire thread is a well thought out response that may have a dissmissive attitude in it, but is generally simply a logical rebuttal to what was posted.

Hypothetically speaking, therefore, if the primary response types were eliminated from existance, a discussion about white power vs black power between two extremely intelligent and opposed people would progress at a very quickened pace, and end with a definite conclusion.

In fact, the discussion would likely progress to a psychological analysis of why they do in fact have opposing views (which would likely pertain to environmental upbringing), rather than argue about the validity of their views.

And therein lies the epiphany I had. That if two diametrically opposed but intelligent people were to encounter one another, they would innevitably dissolve into extremely similar people, and any opposition that would exist between them would lie in the unavoidable discrepancies of their past.

This truth, if assumed, leads to the conclusion that everyone intelligent will always believe the same things given similar histories.

This also leads to the fact that concepts such as racism, patriotism, age prejudice, educational prejudice, monetary prejudice, sexual prejudice are all extremely similar concepts that do not actually exist. That conceptually, an intelligent poor man put in a room with an intelligent rich man will become friends, as will a black supremist and a white supremist, or a man and a woman, assuming they are all intelligent enough to understand that the reasons they belong to any specific group that differentiates them from any other group is solely the result of a difference in historical lifestyle, and does not actually have any bearing on them as people.

So... everyone intelligent is exactly the same as everyone else that is intelligent, and any method of grouping that alienates anyone else can only be grasped truly by unintelligent people.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

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2876 Posts / 57M
     :   24yrs   :  
Wyote

the problem is, peoples histories are what create their ignorance in the first place. our past is what makes us unique and individual as people but it is a gift and a curse.


"UNIX is an operating system, OS/2 is half an operating system, Windows is a shell, and DOS is a boot partition virus. ~Peter H. Coffin"

85 Posts / 54M
     :   1945yrs   :  
otb

nice "epiphany" Decius...now thats what I call thinking outside the "box".

It is a stupid race that remains inside the "box" and dwells on the past. It is an intelligent race that steps outside the "box" and looks on it as a lesson.

otb


ADMINISTRATOR
2876 Posts / 57M
     :   24yrs   :  
Wyote

ouch


"UNIX is an operating system, OS/2 is half an operating system, Windows is a shell, and DOS is a boot partition virus. ~Peter H. Coffin"

2190 Posts / 62M
     :   49yrs   :  
okcitykid

So what you are saying is intelligent people can get along but stupid people can't.

I would agree if you was to say that open minded people could get along but closed minded people cannot.

It is odd how intelligent people believe stupid things, but it is not the fault of stupid people who get in the way of an intelligent arguement.


"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

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2810 Posts / 89M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

I think without stupid people, intelligent people would basically "melt" into a similar form of thinking.

It is the stupidity of stupid people that causes intelligent people to think stupid things.

Why?

Because stupid people cause intelligent people to become closed minded. In order to maintain intelligent thought while surrounded by stupid people, you must protect yourself by dissregarding much of what you hear, which defines closedmindedness.

If everyone was intelligent, you wouldn't have to dissregard anything, which means communication would be far quicker and more efficient.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

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2876 Posts / 57M
     :   24yrs   :  
Wyote

correct me if im wrong, but isnt this how the borg supposidly operated... or were trying to achieve... i dont know it seems borg-esque in a way lol. but im not a trekkie so... *shrugs* if everyone were super smart then everyone would basically end up with the same thoughts and almost become like one singular mass.... hmmm


"UNIX is an operating system, OS/2 is half an operating system, Windows is a shell, and DOS is a boot partition virus. ~Peter H. Coffin"

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2810 Posts / 89M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

...assuming there is a singular truth to every question.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

2190 Posts / 62M
     :   49yrs   :  
okcitykid

I will be honest - I am not a scholarly person. I read very slow, I did very poorly in school and I doubt I could survive college. So when people start talking about stupid people, I do tend to become offensive.

anyways - I can relate to what you are saying in comparing it to my own quest for truth within the religious circle I have discovered that people will believe whatever everyone else believes without studying it to see if it is true or not. in my studies I have learnt that more lies are told then truth simply because its easier to go along with the crowd then it is to try to teach the truth. So you do have to close up your mind to other peoples ideas and beliefs and find the time to study them for yourself. You just can't believe something just because everyone else does.

I do find it hard to believe though that there are intelligent white supremists. To be a white supremist is not smart. But maybe a few very scholarly persons are white supremists.


"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
[  Edited by okcitykid at   ]

178 Posts / 57M
     :   20yrs   :  
kevosworld

"If everyone was intelligent, you wouldn't have to dissregard anything, which means communication would be far quicker and more efficient."

Hey decius what about the senate and congress, they are all intellectuals yet their communication is not efficient. Why?

Because everyone has their own way of thinking. No one would melt into one unversial thought pattern, because each and everyone one of us has a different thought pattern and specific needs. For the congress men its money, for us "smart" people its higher education, and the fundmentals of the world and universe. Yet we all seek these aspects in different and origional ways. If everyone thought the same then we would all be "dumb". think about it


"How on earth are you ever going to explain in terms of chemistry and physics so important a biological phenomenon as first love?"
[  Edited by kevosworld at   ]

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2810 Posts / 89M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

Then we're arguing semantics... to be honest, I don't view politicians as intelligent, because intelligence (to me) encompasses far more than knowledge.

That being said, being a slow reader (to me) has no bearing on your intelligence okcitykid.

Thinking, or thought, or intelligence, is a derivative of logic (to me). And logic is solely the existance of premises which lead to conclusions. With the open minded communication of all possible premises, all questions will be answered in the same way, and reach the same conclusions.

Hence, to me, intelligent people are those that are open minded and also able to follow logic (in this circumstance).

The combination of two such people with contradicting beliefs would innevitably lead to a common belief system.

Hence any negative prejudice against any group of persons can only exist given that that group of people cannot sustain an intellligent person. The moment an intelligent person exists, they break the barrier between that group, and any other group that is able to sustain an intelligent person, thereby invalidating any true segragation between groups.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

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2876 Posts / 57M
     :   24yrs   :  
Wyote

so assuming two "intelligent" people encounter one another and have conflicting views, what exactly happens when they come up with two or more answers/solutions to something? each would be acceptable but the answers still conflict with one anothers ideals... sorry i cant think of any "real life" examples.


"UNIX is an operating system, OS/2 is half an operating system, Windows is a shell, and DOS is a boot partition virus. ~Peter H. Coffin"

251 Posts / 62M
     :   18yrs   :  
Danipog

Well...problem is...there are plenty of intelligent assholes.

You'd definitely need "open minded, intelligent, kind", and probably several other characteristics.

And by talking about getting rid of "stupid people" to make the world better you are showing yourself as an intelligence supremacist.

Do you suggest we commit genocide on all close-minded people?


"Democracy consists of choosing your dictators, after they've told you what you think it is you want to hear."

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2810 Posts / 89M
     :   28yrs   :  
Decius

The moment a person ceases to be open minded, they close of a pathway of education for themselves. Therefore, they cease to continue being intelligent. Comparatively they could be smarter than others, but will always remain at that point until they again open their minds.

Therefore an open minded person with a grasp of logic will innevitably always end up being more intelligent than anyone more closed minded.

Wyote: If two "intelligent" people were to encounter one another, they would not have conflicting views. Any conflicts that would occur would exist as a result of closed mindedness, which negates them being intelligent individuals. Two truly intelligent people would innevitably agree on everything.

Danipog: Perceiving someone as being an asshole is assuming they are assholes to everyone, and not just you. That does not indicate much about their character. Anyone who is an asshole to everyone, unjustified, is not intelligent.

And it's not about segregating those that are unintelligent... it is about accepting that they need to ammend their ways in order to truly understand that the human mind is what makes us all the same... the ability to compute logically which connects us.

My main point is that in a closed environment filled with nothing but intelligent people everyone would leave the situation seeing the world the same way, and believing the same things, hence not having prejudice towards any group of people within.

Stereotypes, sure... but no real prejudice.


"Hating everyone protects me from elitism."

2190 Posts / 62M
     :   49yrs   :  
okcitykid

I might have it wrong - but how about this: If everyone could see every side of a round world then there would be true peace, as we would all see every part of the same thing.

But this task is not a simple one, because stupid people keep getting in the way of this task. (stupid people meaning those who choose to close their mind to anything else then their own perceived truth.)

Even if it wasn't for stupid people, I still don't think we could reach it. There are just more sides than we can imagine, but we should keep trying.


"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."

Cliqueless
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