Does GOD Not Existed?

" U can't say that He is cruel or unjust, cuz thats just plain stuipid."
I think it makes belief in an all good God stupid.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

Look, there is no such thing as a 'good' God or a 'bad' God. These are all human traits. If u beleive that there is a God, then you can't say that he likes tuna, is selfish, has a good sex appeal......

"I'll heal ur woundz I'll set u free, I m jesus christ on xtacy"

Thoughtmani.
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CyberAngel, the following two statements in your description or definition of what god is, in my opinion, contradict each other.
"...to destroy satan and his followers to eternal damnation...."
"...His love is for everybody"
If god loves everyone, damnation does not belong in the vocabulary, wrath does not belong in the vocabulary.
I'm just curious how one can hold these conclusions in an image of a loving god. Can you explain?
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1.Back to Theology: God created Hell for Satan and his angels it was not meant for human. Why God created hell? In responds to the rebellious activities of Satan to put and end of his evilness.
a.Satan rebellion has no forgiveness including his angels.
b.Satan was given a gift of freewill the same as human but he overpowered or abused it resulting against the law of God – which is SIN.
2.Yes His love is for everybody (meaning every man) But it doesn't mean His love will allow evil and sins will be forever. That is the main reason why Man or every mortal creatures, bound to time until the final day. To put and end of evil and sin. That's why He's giving us all chance to turn unto Him while we are living. Your death is unpredictable. What if you die without repenting…. Remember God is not only capable to Love but He is capable of anger and wrath. It is recorded in the history of mankind some of his divine judgment to the people of Israel – even in the time of Noah (that if you don’t believe in the bible, quran, Pentateuch book of the Jews and the torah , cannot help it). These things are sign of God's wrath. Will be he same in the final day, God's love will change to wrath to destroy every single evil in the land including man who did not turn back to Him. The difference only is that, it will be an eternal damnation – the second death.
3.In theology! Everybody refers to man. Satan is not included.

Dumbteen:
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That's your opinion. Of course IF God exists then he affects atheists. IF he does not, then he doesn't even affect chrisitans.
Back up your opinion with evidence. Otherwise an opinion is, by default, false.
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1.Study of God is not a Science – science mostly need precise measures and answers. But about is God full of mystery. And needs your spiritual understanding.
2.How God affects to one life? Let us put this way, to produce light need electricity. Electricity need both positive and negative. What I was saying is, to believe in God and to experience His power and miracle is we have to open our heart and do our part.
3.All what I said in the thread is not an opinion and not needed any evidence. That is what am saying in No. 2. Experience the power of God, through His revelations. Every single word that you read is the fact that every believers brought all the answers of their uncertainty. Even to the non believers who open life of these facts compels them.


Leftwood:
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And also cyberangel, that was one contradiction made evident by thought, another is all things happening by god's decree or whatever, nothing happens that he doesn't "control"? is that what you meant, if so, then were do these "evil" acts come from if not from him and his will, how does free will fit in your almighty god explanation?
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Smart question Leftwood. Back to the principal of Freewill.
1.That is right God is capable to control everything even to the freewill of man. (But He wont do that.) Freewill is a gift given to man and to the angels. It is all your right to choose, you have the all the freedom. But every choices and actions of man has a reward and consequence that has been ordained or decreed in corresponds to your actions. Just like a Computer Program. The results depend upon the information you input.
2. Your Freewill in totally in your control and God won't intervene whatever you decide. And God give you the wisdom to determine what is right from what is wrong. So, every decision you make is totally your responsibility.
3. Everything in the universe is ordained or decreed by God. And this is the greatest mystery of Him. Every reason of any particular object, from great to the smallest things is justified by his decree and does not contradict.

Leftwood:
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When god kills indescriminately, how are we supposed to put real value in life, and feel that it really matters if others kill, if we all died of natural causes then the question would be irrelevant in this context, but we die horrible deaths at the hand of god, torturous death, like cancer and many diseases for one, any nature based death which can involve horrible dismemberments and pain. When a parent has to hold their dying child as it screams because its missing limbs or impailed by any number of things, where does the just and fair and loving god fit in that scenario, what evil have our world innocence commited?
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1. When god kills indiscriminately: I understood you believed in God! You cannot deny that. All things you said as well as others about not believing God are just pretentions and these are the deceptions of Satan to confuse everyone.
2. What I understand in your point is your sympathy to our horrible world. And why God allow these things to happen. Everyone anguish and really feel bad about it how much more to me who believe in God.
a. If you consider, allow me to use the story about the flood of Noah's time. It was a divine judgment and it was the Sovereign act of God. If you accept God Sovereignty, then you should not question that.
b. Cancers, high blood, AIDS, and many more… That kills people. There should be a reason of all these. We have said anything there is a cause. Now we can use our Science, to know what are the reasons of these diseases. In most cases the cause is abusing our body. Freewill was not use properly. Sometimes the cause is not from our part, in some cases is b/c of improper use of freewill of others.
3. Where does the just and fair and loving god fit in that scenario?
God loves you, but how it affects you without doing your part by using your freewill properly.

Dumbteen:
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This is a thread about (dis)proving God. I take for granted that indeed I am supposed to criticize people's beliefs, in this particular thread.
1. Disproving – is in particular for something that has been approved.
You're saying, that your pretentions hide the truth of the reality of God. But you are confuse and your aim is to convince yourself and even to others that God does not exist. Though you feel he know well he is real.
2. A smart man can deliver his opinion without criticizing or without mean to others. You can turndown an invitation without hurt feelings.

2. "1. Do you believe of doing evils or bad things is a SIN?"
I believe you can do things which are selfish, and to be avoided. I do not think you will be punished for it though. Unless human society decides to punish you.
I understand what you just said, but you did not get my point. If you believe that evil or bad thins is a SIN. Please answer by a simple yes or no.


"2. You believed that everything there is a cause? Please explain the cause of the SOURCE of everything in this universe."
I don't know what that source is, just as you cannot tell me the source of God.
1. Anything in this world cannot explain the cause of the Source. So Scinece is imperfect. An evidence of that, lot of our scientist at end of their journey in science claims the reality of God b/c they found nothing to their questions. E.g. the son of first martin luther.
2. God reveals enough to prove He is real. From creation, through the prophets, through Jesus and His miracles. Others remain mystery. His mystery is far beyond from our understanding. No Man thought can comprehend.
3. As I said, God is no beginning because He is the source of everything.
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"3. Like the chicken and egg which one cause first. Please explain."
Anyone with decent grasp of Darwinian evolution knows that question doesnt have an answer, this is because animals change gradually. We don't have good enough definitions of chicken or egg.
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1. You are man of rational and needs evidence. And you believed to Darwin's theory. These theory is baseless and no evidence. It was not proven at all. One more thing, why Darwin did not discuss the source of fossils which he claimed the cause of evolution.
2. The question is not how things change, the issue here how it exists, where it came from, sure chicken came from nothing, don’t tell us the egg came from elephant and hatch as chicken, which very irrational and unacceptable.
3.Chicken or egg came from nothing it is not rational that it came from something. Who can make exist of something from nothing. It's obvious who did.

Cyberangel!
"The Truth will set you free, and will give you peace of mind."
[u]

"the truth will set you free"

"Look, there is no such thing as a 'good' God or a 'bad' God. These are all human traits."
Virtually all religions with a single God define God as "all good". Perhaps yours is the exception.

"3.All what I said in the thread is not an opinion and not needed any evidence."
Yes it does. You said that God affects us whether we believe in him or not. But that's only opinion isn't it?

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

CyberAngel,

Have you considered the fact that virtually every holy text that exists today has been translated, interpreted and re-interpreted by man? And my feeling is that perhaps how man interprets a statement/thought/idea that came from a divine source could be very different than its original or true meaning and intention.

Do you ever question that which you read in holy texts or do you just take it as "the word", no questions asked.

Just trying to understand your perspective.

DT... an observation and a question. You are very strong and intelligent in your arguments against the existence of a divine being and sometimes you even sound completely convinced; yet most of your posts are in god related threads. My question is this... Are you trying to convince all of the believers that they are foolish because their beliefs are based on nothing concrete, nothing provable... or is there a part of you who wants to believe and you are looking for the believers to give you some sort of evidence of the existence of a god?

"Love everyone, question everything and look up!"

Oh there's no doubt, I WANT God to be true. But I will not lie to myself and call my lie faith.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

I can completely understand your desire/need to be honest and not "foolish" in the possible belief. But like it has been said many times by many people that is something that has to be experienced before it can be believed. And even the experience is near impossible of not impossible to effectively communicate. All the true believers do is talk about theories and ideas about what they believe to be true based on experience. And there are also people who just recite what they have been taught but perhaps aren't "believers" in the same sense.

So... the way you are operating now is from the perspective that "it isn't so until I'm convinced otherwise", and I've seen you get "close" to accepting the possibility but then you shut down, something inside your logical brain just won't let your heart listen (as vague as that may sound). So here's something you may consider, try hearing at least some of the words that are being said as "true", the ones that are at least close to making logical sense, the ones that you relate to the most, the ones you "want" to be true, contrary to your logical thoughts about it, and see what happens. If it's something that you have to experience to believe, you have to be open to the experience and right now, as far as I can tell, you're not. I guess what I'm saying is try having "faith", if even for a day, a minute, open your mind to the possibility, and maybe you'll begin to feel that there is something to it and that will lead you to an experience where you will "know".

Basically, if you are open to it it will show itself to you, if you're completely closed, you'll never see it.

Just a suggestion... take it or leave it.

With love.

"Love everyone, question everything and look up!"

" and I've seen you get "close" to accepting the possibility but then you shut down, something inside your logical brain just won't let your heart listen (as vague as that may sound)."
God is a seductive concept, hmmm.. and I thought the devil was the one who tempts us!

"If it's something that you have to experience to believe, you have to be open to the experience and right now, as far as I can tell, you're not"
I may accept it if I experience something trully unexplainable. It is perfectly logical to accept God if you have one of these experiences, but I have not.

"I guess what I'm saying is try having "faith", if even for a day, a minute, open your mind to the possibility"
What, God only reveals himself to those who lie to themselves?

"Just a suggestion... take it or leave it.

With love."
Thankyou, but I want to be honest. I have kid myself a lot in the past, not about God though, but its the same thing in the end, illusons hurt.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

"What, God only reveals himself to those who lie to themselves?"

You don't have to lie to yourself. You just have to perceive beyond logic. There is more to you than your brain and you can open yourself to the possibility that you can listen and experience beyond your brain. The actual process of experiencing god is neither logical nor illogical in my view because it is an experience beyond our thinking. But then once you've had an experience you will be able to express it logically because you have experienced it.

Have you ever tried meditating? Meditation is not an "illusion" that has the potential to hurt you, it is a process of calming the brain and relaxing the body, which is beneficial to anyone. So you don't even have to lie to yourself, and maybe it will lead to experiencing god in some way.

"Love everyone, question everything and look up!"

Jesus, you people are down right silly.

Although it is near impossible to explain, I think you better start taking a better look at you "experiences". I have experienced such things, and I want to make sure we are talking about the same things before I tear you a new one.

You don't have to lie to yourself you just have to believe beyond perception? What do you think lying to yourself is, you see, when you lie to yourself you at least know deep down that your are lying, when you try to believe something based on unprovable evidence and or perhaps "divine experience" its harder to see the lie because you find ways to back it up with outside sources, credible or not, as determined probably not.

DT just say he doesn't know, and you just say you do, one makes sense and the other is lying to themselves unless it is backed up right?

Your beliefs beyong perception are so polluted by social influence, fear, personal desire, additction, that you don't even know what you are talking about, you don't even understand what you believe, you don't know its sources and you don't know its true meaning, you are simply saying that you believe in a pre-packaged idea sold to suckers everywhere and that you only believe it because it FEELS right, right? Isn't that the basis of you whole belief, how it feels, your gut instinct on the matter, what you want to believe, what gets you what you want after you die, what makes you feel like your life has meaning. What a bunch of crap. At least drugs addicts (not in the deepest stages of denial) know that they are addicted to something, so hopelessly dependant, fear the loss of it, everything revolves around it, it is what drives them, its rather pathetic the degree people will go the avoid the fear of uncerainty in life. Tsk Tsk.
For shame, telling your children stories of devils and boogeymen, scaring them with stories of burning in hell, then telling that santa and the easter bunny are fake but this horrid blood filled story is the truth, good job. Way to think for yourselves.

Love people, just never forget the nature of the beast.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

Oh and cyber, don't worry no one cares about your grammar, we speak english just fine and still butcher it. Typing is a pain regardless

Its your "beliefs" and claims that will get you the heat around here.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

Wow leftwood... You sound like me

thought - I haven't tried meditation, I honestly don't know where to start to have that. I'd be open, but I wouldn't expect much. Except perhaps, that I'd see whatever experiences I get as having purely biological origins.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

Dumbteen:
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"3.All what I said in the thread is not an opinion and not needed any evidence."
Yes it does. You said that God affects us whether we believe in him or not. But that's only opinion isn't it?
1. It is not an opinion. God is giving all chance to every non believers to draw back to him. Once you do that you will feel Him in your life. But keep on mind there's always an end of everything and you are bound to that. God is not just capable to Love, He is capable to throw you out to eternal Damnation. Even in this life, what ever you do there is a consequence. Maybe now is not your time, but for sure you will facing your punishment in this life. But it is written to be punished in this life is great easier than the second death. We'll pray for you friends.
2. Dumbteen case and the others in the thread, keep on mind! God said! THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS TO ANYONE WHO BLASPHEMED THE HOLY SPIRIT. You know yourself. If you have done that. It's good to ask question to find answers of our confusions but be careful to your words. This is not for us but for your own sake. Just consider little possibilities it will not harm you just to avoid you from SIN without forgiveness –

THOUGHTMANI
Have you considered the fact that virtually every holy text that exists today has been translated, interpreted and re-interpreted by man?
1. Yes you are right the bible was translated to reach-out every nation and tribes according to their own language helping them to understand easily. And yet b/c the devil is working in all possible ways to destroy the purpose of God, he uses religions and cults to interpret the scripture to justify their heresy. They translated according to their on beliefs, some words omitted were changed to be exact.

2. I like the one you said "true believers" it emphasized clearly, that everyone who believed God is not God's followers. There are people pretending they real believers but they aim to twist the scripture and cover the truth by their deceptions.

Satan is working in all directions,

1.. He works into the heart of Ungodly Man – terrorizing humankind – killing the innocents and taking advantage to weak.

2. He works into the heart of people denying God's reality – by killing the truth and influence evil man for further terrors and destruction and it affects the society esp. the youth to sex immorality, drugs, rapes and murders resulting varieties of diseases. Then they will ask, why God let this things happened and they question his integrity.

3. Satan works with false religions – to cover the truth – making the confused more confuse. Resulting rebellious acts against God.

4. Satan works with Science – some scientist trying to prove that there was no creation and there is no God. But until now no proof have been found.

ToughtMani…
And my feeling is that perhaps how man interprets a statement/thought/idea that came from a divine source could be very different than its original or true meaning and intention.

1. I carefully choose what bible I use… There are versions, words are differ from the others but the meaning and intentions are the same. Why different words are used? Because there are technical words esp. in English that hard to understand. I myself is hard to understand King James version… So I usually use 4 versions comparing to what it says. To make the point clearer.
2. You are right maybe differ from the original… but the same meaning.
a. Example in Latin – (The original source of the bible) it has deeper meaning then the words used in english.
b. I used several versions to get the deeper meaning.
c. And if you are experiencing the power of God by reading His words, it guides you and you just found yourself satisfied. That how God reveals Himself to you. By your prayers you will feel the experience of talking to him heart to heart.

3. Not all translations are by God – Some were interpreted to justify their beliefs (no need to mention but if you like to know not here in the thread) these are called false doctrines/heresy/apostasy.

Thoughmani…
Do you ever question that which you read in holy texts or do you just take it as "the word", no questions asked.
Just trying to understand your perspective.

1. Some misunderstood that the bible itself or the book itself is holy. Before they open it they kiss it and they do the same when they close. But some neglected the real intentions.
This is not my own perspective but this is the right thing to understand of every Christian.
a. The bible is a collection of book that contain the World of God
b. During the time of the prophets (in the Old Testament – Israelites from Adam to Noah to Abraham to Isaac and to Jacob to Moses.) The world of God was not in written, it was memorized and verbally delivered to the people from generation to generations. Then later – they made in written called the scroll. These scrolls are written Law of God given to the people of Israel. Actually the first written law of God given to the Israel was the Ten Commandments done by the power of God. After the death of Jesus King James together with great wise men of his rule. ..gathered all these scrolls and collect them together called the bible.
c. The Bible – there's no such word written that makes the Bible holy. But we(Christians) all believed that the bible is the word of God. And it is written that the word of God is powerful. Paul said it is sharper than any double edged sword. And the early apostles use the word of God in the name of Jesus to fight the demons. Even today! If you believed to His words. Theirs is a great deliverance of your inner being. It will transform your old life to a new creation. That is the power of God thought His words.
d. The source of these words is the one Holy and most powerful One- and that is the GOD of the Universe. it is written "God said, be holy because I am Holy.) Everyword is inspired by the Holy spirit as it is witten. It serve as our guidance in this life and show us the truth of seeking our God. The author of the bible is God non others. All law in the land is bound to it.

Thoughmani…
DT... an observation and a question. You are very strong and intelligent in your arguments against the existence of a divine being and sometimes you even sound completely convinced; yet most of your posts are in god related threads.

I agree with you Thoughmani…

1. A man without FAITH remains uncertainty and confuse till his death.
2. In Proverbs: There are things seems right to man but at the end will lead him to eternal death.
Thoughmani…
My question to DT... Are you trying to convince all of the believers that they are foolish because their beliefs are based on nothing concrete, nothing provable... or is there a part of you who wants to believe and you are looking for the believers to give you some sort of evidence of the existence of a god?

1. In the case of Dumbteen even you will show him every possible way to prove God. If his heart and mind remains closed, no affects at all. He is trying too hard to find answers of his uncertainty but once he got an answer he shut off his life.

"the truth will set you free"

"1. It is not an opinion. God is giving all chance to every non believers to draw back to him. Once you do that you will feel Him in your life."
Opinion. Unsubstantiated opinion at that.

"But keep on mind there's always an end of everything and you are bound to that. God is not just capable to Love, He is capable to throw you out to eternal Damnation."
Aah, we got to the threats, good. Belief is not a choice. Its not my fault if God made a universe which is soooo terribly unconvincing.


"2. Dumbteen case and the others in the thread, keep on mind! God said! THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS TO ANYONE WHO BLASPHEMED THE HOLY SPIRIT."
But what if there is no Holy Spirit?


"You know yourself. If you have done that. It's good to ask question to find answers of our confusions but be careful to your words."
THE GOOD AND MIGHTY GOD ULUYA HAS NO MERCY FOR INFIDELS WHO USE THE WORD CAREFUL ABOUT WORDS

"1. A man without FAITH remains uncertainty and confuse till his death. "
A man with it spends his life both wrong (or right for the wrong reasons) and in a perpetual lie.

"2. In Proverbs: There are things seems right to man but at the end will lead him to eternal death. "
I'm glad God is so understanding.

"1. In the case of Dumbteen even you will show him every possible way to prove God. If his heart and mind remains closed, no affects at all. He is trying too hard to find answers of his uncertainty but once he got an answer he shut off his life. "
Again, I want to believe in God. It would be a beautiful thing, no? But I want even more to be honest, to not live in illusions and not pretend lies are holy and make them the basis of my life.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

"I'm glad god is so understanding"
LOL

The essence of the being, in fact the entirety of the being, in my view is LOVE. Because, like I have said before, love is the common thread of every single spiritual belief and holy text that exists, so if there is a divine source or divinity behind spirituality, it has be a divinity of love.

Love is...

Understanding
Forgiveness
Acceptance
Appreciation
Compassion
Care
Peace
Respect
Patience
Freedom
Truth
Trust

... nothing more.

That's where the power, the knowledge and the wisdom is, through the practice of these concepts. The more of this we have in our lives, the closer we are to enlightenment, divinity, god, whatever we call it; beause that's what it is.

"Love everyone, question everything and look up!"