Does GOD Not Existed?

Thank you rschulz for bringing my error to light. I admit that a few of the points I made were wrong and I will retract them.

Simply saying that God exists outside of time and space does not give any reason to say he exists. This is true, because merely making a statement or claiming something as true doesn't make it fact. Assuming from the start that the idea of God existing outside of space and time has merit doesn't make it true if there is no evidence shown for it. And still then it is up to the one viewing the evidence to make up his mind whether he believes it or not.

So, in these points I will conclude that I was wrong. But I also think that there were a few of your own statements that make the same kind of assumptions.

In your first post you stated:

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Everyone is familiar w/ cause and effect, right? Well, if you track the causal chain of events back to their source eventually you will discover what started it.

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In our case we will call God the "first mover" or the entity that gave cause a kick in the ass to produce its ever expanding infinity of effects. The problem with this theory is that God must then be self cause b/c there is no one/thing to 'cause' God. An uncaused cause or an unmoved 'first mover' is a logical impossibility which is at least some evidence for the proof of the non-existence of God.

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What you presuppose is that the idea of God existing outside space and time has merit. (What is, “outside space and time?”) To the human understanding it does not have merit, since we are not able to conceive of a being outside the causal chain of events, (I.E. – a consequence without and act) It simply cannot be done.

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"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

Strongclad, you said,

"this is not proof for the so-called "non-existence" of God. There is no way one can prove "non-existence." The only thing your statement does is try to cast doubt and unreliability on the theory of the "uncaused-cause." It is only proof against that theory in general."

Actually, it is a portion of a strong proof for the non-existence of God called the Cosmological argument. A proof, which was, originally intended to serve as proof for the existence of God, 'refurbished' by Aquinas from Aristotle's notes.

This is basically how it goes:

1. Some things are caused.
2. Nothing can cause itself.
3. Therefore, everything that is caused is caused by something other than itself.
4. A causal chain cannot stretch infinitely backward in time.
5. If the causal chain cannot stretch infinitely backward in time, there must be a first cause.
6. Therefore, everything that is caused has a first cause, i.e. God.

There have been many objections to the problem, which may or may not make it true. The problem is that when Aquinas applied the problem to God, God then becomes part of the causal chain of events. Therefore the question we ask is, "how was God caused?"

God ends up being labeled as 'necessary' for the existence of the universe or God exists in 'itself.' Then Leibniz comes along and says basically, there are reasons for everything even though we may not know those reasons (Necessary/Sufficient reason).

The explanation for God then ends up becoming a paradox, or a 'necessary truth that ends up being a contradiction.' Another example of a paradox would be the statement, "There are no universal truths." So the proof for God being the 'first mover' ends up relying on the answer to the paradox. And like you said before people of course have to choose at that point whether they accept the sufficient reason/evidence.

And so what you said is true..."First off, this is not proof for the so-called "non-existence" of God", since God is outside of this scope of the argument. However, I do think that it does serve as evidence to help guide us in the right direction when thinking about the 'almighty.'

Please comment on: 'evidence of an uncaused-cause' and 'the explanation(s) of a being outside our universe."

"Morals here. Get your morals. Only cost...your freedom."

Dumbteen, you sound like you really wish that God did not exist, or that you are mad at him. Like you know he is there but he did something to make you mad.

Take God out of the picture, and then let's see who is responsible for the 9-11, the holocost, and such. Tthe people are.... The people did it. Put God back in the picture, and then find out who actually did those things. The people still did it, God just let it happen.

To amend this question, we could change it to "who is God?"

Why does God let the terrible happen,
Why does God let good people seffuer,
Why does God let bad people get away?

I say God allows us to do what we do because it is our choice and our life. God intereferes when it is our choice to ask him, or if there is some plan to this world that he wants carried out. We will live our lives and then who knows what. I believe there is an afterlife where we will be judged according to what we do, and that is who God is.

"Fate is the shadow cast by the light of our choice. We can change our fate by altering that light."

Nicely put forth Elemental, I really like it when that kind of thinking suddenly pops up, changing the whole perpective!

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

I would also like to agree with Elemental's statements. These are what I firmly believe.

sorry I cannot comment much more. I broke my arm two weeks ago.

I will comment on some of these posts later, when I get my range of movement back.

"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

" The people still did it, God just let it happen. "
Letting people suffer and die by inaction, when one has the power to stop it, is plain evil. This God is an asshole. I'm sorry for being so blunt.

"Dumbteen, you sound like you really wish that God did not exist, or that you are mad at him."
I don't believe in God because I have a rational mind, I don't believe in believing out of faith.
But also, you're right, if he exists, I am seriously pissed off. You are lucky, living in a 1st world country. But do you realise how HORRIBLE this world has been and still is? Perhaps not for us in the West, in fact I live a perfectly fine life. But I'm empathizing with those who don't live like we Kings. The history of man is the history of diseases, starvation, barbarian invasions, imperialism and rebellion.
I could go on a make a long boring list of atrocities, but I think you get the idea. Not only is there no rational reason for belief in God (and I've had no divine revelations, dreams, contacts, whatever) but I also find that if God does indeed exist (which he might) then he is most uncaring and cruel entity of the world.

Why would anyone believe, without a divine revelation or their parent's teachings?

There's your answer, God has not revealed himself to me.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

Yes. That is an excellent question for you who suppose that there is a God.

Here’s your problem:

God exists.
Things happen in the world that we as humans would rather not see happen, aka – ‘evil.’ (i.e. - 9/11)
Therefore God permits ‘evil’ things to happen.

If you accept the premises and argue for them then I think you should answer "DumbTeens" question, which is why would one believe w/o divine intervention or b/c moms and pops told them to believe?

Elemental, simply stating that we have choices (free will) does not give God the option to play the free will card for as a scapegoat for any ‘evil’ he permits to exist. You couldn't walk into a court of law and be found not guilty by claiming free will. I'm w/ "DumbTeen," if God does not exist then all u believers are wasting your time going to church and praying. However if God does exist he is truly, as "DumbTeen" put it, an asshole, in which case I don't see him as fit for worship. Also I don’t see him as all-powerful either.

Who on this forum would worship a (n) man/entity/being that had the power to prevent the death or injury of a loved one, but 'chose' not to do so? Like “DumbTeen” said, “Irrational.”

"Morals here. Get your morals. Only cost...your freedom."

hi, ur new on this net and i'm suppose to great u wel, but i won't do that, cause i'm pretty mad right now about what u said about God.

If u don't think God exist, then i got one thing to say to u: that's, u have to ask urself how u came to existance, how come u sleep and wake up the next morning, how do u breathe, look at ur hole being. I mean forget what the sceintists are saying and ask urself how did the world came to existance and our sollarsystem.

All i'm saying is, just ask urself the simple questions. Unbelievers are not Worthy enough for God to reveal Himself to . Just like the Bible says: Blessed is the one who has not seend, but believes.
But then again, that's the old trick the devil uses to snatch u/unbelievers from ur Father's Kingdom. All the sorrows ur talking about, the sorrows in the world these days are being mentioned in the Bible: it says: in the last days/end time, nations will fight nations(Amrica vs Iraq),
there will be earthquakes, there will be diseases/ look at what AIDs is doing, there will be death everywhere. Everything that is happening in the world today was prophised in the bible by Jesus, the Son of God. So now that u know, prepare urself for even worsier things in the world, but then u schould also prepare for judment day. So believers are not waisting their time praying and going to church.

So, Stop, in the Name of Jesus, preaching bulshit to other kids on this net. Why do u think God gave us free will, that means, everybody is responsible for the actions and dicisions they make in life. If the gouverments/politicians of some coutries make some bad dicisions and their people have to suffer for it, even to the point of dying, God is not going clean up the mess.

They are all going to account for it. Those that were giving power and are abusing it. That is the meaning of "free will" that's why people are suffering these days. God has given us free will, but what we did with, that's where we're going to be judged upon. U, my friend, have free will, but u are not using it well, ur practicully preaching the non-existance of God on this net to people, rember u are going account for it
stella/ if u want reply and i'll give u more explanation

"life is about musik"

"If u don't think God exist, then i got one thing to say to u: that's, u have to ask urself how u came to existance, how come u sleep and wake up the next morning, how do u breathe, look at ur hole being. I mean forget what the sceintists are saying and ask urself how did the world came to existance and our sollarsystem."
What do you mean forget what the scientists are saying? Scientists can tell HOW not why something happened. And frankly, science tells us much more convincingly HOW the world happens then the Bible's Genesis.
Now WHY the world was created is a different question, which science has no answer to. However, I don't know the answer to that question, and I don't pretend to by claiming its some God without any reason.

"All i'm saying is, just ask urself the simple questions. Unbelievers are not Worthy enough for God to reveal Himself to."
How the hell am I supposed to believe if :
- there is no convincing evidence for God (that I know of)
- God has the power to stop evil and is all GOOD
- evil exists
- God has not revealed himself to me
I'm sorry I'm 'unworthy'. Belief is not a choice.

" All the sorrows ur talking about, the sorrows in the world these days are being mentioned in the Bible: it says: in the last days/end time, nations will fight nations(Amrica vs Iraq),
there will be earthquakes, there will be diseases/ look at what AIDs is doing, there will be death everywhere. Everything that is happening in the world today was prophised in the bible by Jesus, the Son of God. So now that u know, prepare urself for even worsier things in the world, but then u schould also prepare for judment day. So believers are not waisting their time praying and going to church."
You need to study history. There have been wars, there have been famine and there has been plague ever since man can remember. Today's world is unexceptional regard to human happiness or misery, many peoples have always been miserable, and today many peoples are miserable.
Don't convince yourself we live in special times and the apocalypse is coming (had you said this after WW2 or before the end of the Cold War your argument would be more convincing).

"So, Stop, in the Name of Jesus, preaching bulshit to other kids on this net."
Well, in my opinion, you have defended your beliefs with little more then statements which are either ignorant of history or irrelevant. So no, I will not stop showing why I believe what I believe (as per the purpose of this thread).

"If the gouverments/politicians of some coutries make some bad dicisions and their people have to suffer for it, even to the point of dying, God is not going clean up the mess."
Thank you for illustrating my point. God is ALL POWERFUL, ALL KNOWING and ALL GOOD, he has the power and will to 'clean up the mess'. Yet he doesn't. Do you see the problem?
Why should do people suffer for their leader's bad decisions, their leader's evil or their invader's might? (besides the fact that much suffering is completely beyond human control drought, floods, tornadoes, hurricanoes, plagues and is basically the will of God)

" U, my friend, have free will, but u are not using it well, ur practicully preaching the non-existance of God on this net to people, rember u are going account for it
stella/ if u want reply and i'll give u more explanation"
I'm not using it well? Are the other 4 billion Godless heathens on this Earth not using it well either? Are we all "going to account for it"? I suppose I cannot appreciate this all good God.


For now the only reason I know of that would make belief in God reasonsable is divine revelation. Those who believe because God revealed Himself to them through prayer, dreams (or honestly anything, I wouldn't know) are in my opinion the most honest of believers. People who believe through revelation are totally legitimate and correct in their own personal belief. But they have no right to call those who have not felt God's revelation evil and immoral, how can we believe if God has not graced us with revelation?

But give me a reason, a good reason, a rational reason with evidence and logic to believe in God, and I will believe in God without divine revelation.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"
[  Edited by Angelfire at   ]

people who see god through divine revalation are open to the idea of god in the first place. believe whatever you want for now, but at least be open to the possibility that god does in fact exsist and perhaps there is a perfectly logical explanation for the exsistance of "evil" within our world. also, we have trouble defining what good and evil are, there are whole threads on here simply about that topic, i think this shows that we know very little about any of this sort of thing. there are loop holes and gaps in both logic and faith. just use both and try to live as best you can.

"I am Akba-Atatdia"

Please do not call God what you did-for me and you.
I love God and I would feel way bad if I did not express that I wish people did not swear about him. I love the guy, and he even loves those who swear at him.
But then again, you don't believe in him. Please stop calling him curse words because it show a lack of intelligence to you. For one, you are giving something you do not believe in a name. Ironic that you call God names when you say he isn't even there. Also, I hate swearing anyways because it is the language of ignorant showoffs. Curse words are the most simple things you could say so it is for the tongue of any stupid person to say at the occassion of any moment. Many people swear just for the fun of it, and that is maybe the stupidest thing ever.

Rational mind...?

"I don't believe in believing out of faith." ~DumbTeen
Yeah, uh, that is pretty much what beliefs are. Believing is faith, knowing is logic. Believing is having a feeling inside you that makes you feel that something is right or wrong.

I will tell you why I believe in my religion. When I was a child, I thought about the end of time, the beginning, what happens if I don't exist or nothing exists, ect. I would run to my parents room and cry because I was so afraid. They calmed me down by telling me answers to what happens when I die, they told me things about God, and how time will go on forever, and so will our afterlives. I was afraid of going on forever in death.
Through my religion, I learned that life after death is sweet action if you live life right. But I was still afraid of the thought of living forever. Until I became aware that when we get married, we can be married and keep our families together for all of eternity. There was never anything so soothing to my heart than the thought that I could live with the girl that I love for all of time. Inside me, inside my heart, mind, and soul, not only do I believe that that is true, but I know as all the logic I have that there is no other way to live in the existence as we know it.

Lucky to live in a first world country, where all the worst things of the world gather. America itself is pandora's box as a black hole. I love America, but the fact that it is maybe the most advanced country there is, America may fall because of it. From what I believe, a third world country, nor even a hard physical life is the worst thing that can happen to you. It is what you choose, and your judgement. Third world countries may have an easier access to diseases, death, and destruction, but what crimes are those that a person makes? But in America, we have rape on our doorstep, murder at our window, greed in our pocket, and any other corruptive detail you can imagine in our own house because we live like kings. We live with the ability that kings have.
But then you are probably thinking ‘that is why God does not exist! He lets this happen!’ and you are dang straight he lets this happen. Check the rest of my logic and beliefs out-
Not only do I believe God exists, but I believe man exists and so does Satan. Satan has his own little freedom to put ideas in people’s heads to do horrible things. I think some people have good enough hearts to follow what the feel is good, rather than what their body says is right(what they want). I believe in man, and that he has a choice in all matters. I believe that fate is the justice of an event. You might not believe God is a just thing, but I believe in the afterlife. I believe that this world only matters by what you take of it, and then what you make of it. God feels horrible for the innocent victims, and he feels shame for the corrupted men and their choices. God allows man to do what he wants to do in their power. God steps in like Satan and put’s ideas in you, but in your heart and soul. God cries every time that one man sins. He cries because his own is fighting against what is right. I believe an evil man will be punished and the victim of the evil man will be rewarded. Unless that victim takes the event he fell by, and finds it in his heart to live evilly because of it. But God lets that happen because he does what is right and he allows man to be free.
You call that Cruel?
You call he that brings you freedom cruel?
I ask if you have read “The Worthing Saga” by Orson Scott Card. That book is not about God, but it shows exactly who he is through characters with the power to do exactly what you wish. These characters developed the ability to see people’s thoughts, rearrange their memories, and fix mistakes that have been made in the capacity of entire worlds at a time. Their ancestor awoke from deep hibernation, awaiting the day his descendants would awake him. He saw what they did, which is what you want, and he hated it. He hated it because man could not choose, man could not live. Man never went through any bad thing in his life with these gods, and because of it, they never knew what happiness was! The god like creatures never know this thought because the way they lived, and having guided man through life, they could not hear any thought from them that told them that they wanted the freedom available to them.
God loves us and allows us all to choose our own choices. God loves us and allows us to live a life. You want him to step in and take free agency away from people. No, of course not. You want God to stop the bad things from happening, and heal the innocent victims.
It does not work that way, and for that, I thank God.

God does not intervene because we have a life to live! If we ask him, and for some unknown reason, he sees that it is right and he should do it, he will do it! He leads man through righteousness in many different ways. But he does not live their lives for them. God lets me live and he lets me make the mistakes that I have, then feel bad about htem, so that I can know what life is really about! If you don’t want a part of the meaning of life to be spoiled right here, then turn away, because this a piece of God’s plan. We will live, and we will be tempted, and we will choose. Then we will be judged. There is more to life then that, but this is the key to your afterlife. Do you choose to live a corrupted life and fight against the light? Do you harm others in the process?

But wait, you get that. You know you have a choice, and you also think we are throwing it away by believing in God. You think that God is cruel because he does not aid those who suffer. DO YOU THINK GOD ENJOYS HIS CHILDREN TO SUFFER!? God cries that one would suffer, even if it were justified. He lets us learn for ourselves! That is what life is. He judges our hearts at the end of it all, to see how we have taken the life we took. He looks at the victims and rewards them so, and he looks at the criminals and rewards them so-in the end.
What you take from life, and how you live what is given to you, that is how you are judged! If the victim lives his life to the fullest good he can, then he shall be brought to a greater end than that person who lived his life with no harm but no large fault either. Do you not see that victims still have a choice to their end in who they are? How can God decide who you are when he makes the choices for you, when he heals the victim so that they do not take that part of their life with them. God lets you live! God lets you choose! Got lets you decide who you are, and your own judgement!

As for your question-
We are not supposed to know for absolute certain with evidence that God exists. Otherwise the choice of believing would be lost. You yourself have to figure out what you think is right, and if you follow it or not. That is life!
God has the power to stop evil, but he has the plan and patience to see who you are in the end. He does not forget and he knows who you are and through this he can predict very closely to who you will become. Why should he change an occurrence in your life when he knows it might change who you are in the end when it is someone you should have discovered on your own.
Evil exists, but God did not create it. Man kind did. Because man kind chooses evil over good in most scenarios.
And why in any cause should God reveal himself to you just to prove he is there, when that is something you have to do What in your destiny is so special that you are required to know for certain that God exits. If you would become a man of righteousness and be wise enough to help people find God in their own lives, if you are part of his plan where you have to believe in him, maybe he would show you he exists. But other than that, why should he? You need to figure that out on your own. Who are you to demand of God? You don’t even thank him for life.

How can God stand by and watch? Yeah, and you are out everyday trying to help the world. God is helping, and you are still waiting for him to show you a reason to help the world. Satan has no power to become a person to cause and effect events, but he can put thoughts in your head. That is how Satan acts without having a body. That is how God bends the laws of the universe and helps indirectly. Through us can the miracles be made, through us can God’s will be done! People who do not ask for his help, of do not believe in him still get his help. God puts the feelings inside people to help the world, to aid others. It is still our choice to follow that light inside ourselves, or to become selfish and ask why should we when God has not done anything for me lately.

I have not had divine revelation, but I still believe. I believe in all that I have spoken and I have said. I believe in God through faith. You however demand he show you himself. You want logic. Find it yourself!
It is my logic that you hate the very source of good in this world, and that is your choice to say that then stand by and do little as you can to live like a king and do nothing in God’s name to help the world. For that, my logic says you are evil.

"Fate is the shadow cast by the light of our choice. We can change our fate by altering that light."

Elemental - why are you trying to make DumbTeen a "believer" ? its clear he has already made up his mind. through all of your rantings there you have still yet to provide any "logical" explanation as to the exsistence of God. the more i read this thread, the more pointless it seems to me.

"I am Akba-Atatdia"

"I don't believe in believing out of faith." ~DumbTeen
Yeah, uh, that is pretty much what beliefs are."
No, they are not only arbitrary beliefs. Belief can also be based on facts, logic and evidence. A belief based on these can change if the evidence changes. That is not true for belief out of faith.

"It is what you choose, and your judgement. Third world countries may have an easier access to diseases, death, and destruction, but what crimes are those that a person makes?"
Oh please. Do you think rapes, beatings, thuggery don't happen in 3rd World countries? It has another name and involves far more peoples suffering : civil war.

Sorry I cannot answer more, I'm out of time.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

To Ms. Bond and 'Elemental'…

Ms. Bond, I think that if God does exist the best way to serve him would be to inquire about him and his existence. This is specifically what 'DumbTeen' and I are doing. If you do not feel this is "good" then maybe you need to begin another thread. However, since this post is a discussion on the existence of God I'd invite you to at least consider then notion and question God's existence.

Elemental, you assume you have this notion of how to 'know' whether something is “good or evil.” Can you explain how I might be able to know whether an act is “good or evil?”

Also, if I am to be judged at the gates when I am dead, should not God also be judged? It's a double standard when I am called evil because I allow an innocent man to be murdered but at the same time God is not held accountable for this situation. Whether I permit or commit the "evil" or God permits or commits the "evil," the "evil" is still taking place. And so I'm in disagreement with your "scare tactic" that God will have the final judgment. And if I stand at the 'Pearly Gates' (of course they are pearly) and God judges me to damnation b/c I considered him just as "evil" as I, then my argument would be what I stated previously.

And just for the record of this thread, neither “DumbTeen” nor myself are preaching. Preaching is for those who are satisfied with their knowledge and beliefs and simply choose to spread those ideas to other people. In fact, we are doing something quite the opposite, which many on this thread seem to be opposed to, and that is questioning.

"Morals here. Get your morals. Only cost...your freedom."

wat's innocent to you . u talked about it in ur reply, do u know wat innocent is???? The next time u reply, explain ur point of view/the world's point of view of innocent. God says in the Bible that; our ways are not his ways and His ways are not our ways. And please explain God's point of view of an innocent person(consider the commandments). Not that all people deserve to die regardless of the they leave, if they leave not to serve God or leave to serve Him. And u also talked about 'who is going to judge God'now let me ask u, how would u feel a picture or something u've drawn ask u who created u. What would u say if the picture starts acting like ur supereur and starts doing things contraury to ur rules.

Me reacting on this thread is not to scare u as u think i'm doing, i'm doing it to prevent u from infleuncing people with ur opinions about the world, just because ur confused . I think ur doing this, because, either ur aseind or ur looking for attention. If u really wanna know if God exist, u'll ask him to reveal Himself to u through different things.
I'm not attacking ur thread, cause i'm a christian, it's cause i've experienced God in my life. About wat u call, innocent people dying, just like I said, the end time is near, non-christian will die, the christian will die, the musleam will also die. And there is not specific way they will die, some of us will die a painful death, some peacefully.

Death for those people on 9/11 doesn't mean a bad thing, it's just that their love ones will miss them. For the dead people it means waiting for judgment day.

And don't think u'll not face any challenges about this thread, cause u've stepped on a lot of toas.
stella

"life is about musik"