Does GOD Not Existed?

"think about what I said and if U undrestand it answer this question....
If u had the GOD's power(u r still human)would u stop the september 11th event?"
Let me put things straight. The Christian God is omnipotent (can do anything), omniscient (knows everything) and omnibenevolent (infinitely good).
What kind of God would create rules leading to the world we live in today? Not a very Christian one.
If I were God, I'd destroy my imperfection then stop all evil from happening. That includes 9/11 but there are many other things which deserve a much higher priority.

Oh and apart from the sheer blatant evil roaming around earth which makes a christian God improbable, lets not forget that many atheists (myself included) never had a reason to believe in God.
Why should I believe in God? Is there proof? Is there even evidence? Plenty of books claim I should believe in God, but none back up their claims with confirmable facts.

Lets be clear, there is no objective reason I know of to believe in God and furthermore the concept of the Christian God is incompatible with this universe given the evil that exists in it.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

If i were god i cud not have stop 9/11 cus it will go against the freewill of the terrorist who chose to perform them horrible acts but i will be there with open arms welcoming all the new believers that came to god becus they came to reality from that horrible act. all i saying is these things happen becus of the people who are influenece by the devil and choose to perform these acts wit their granted gift of freewill and god the loving being he is is forced to let these person have their freewill granted becus god has given us that great gift that is our greatest downfall cus honestly dumdteen if god wouldnt have given us freewill everyone would being living and there will be no exsistance of sin the world would be perfect cus god will like umm cus he loves everyone he would jus make them saved but no he gave us that freewill and that left us to fall to ourselves and get influence by the evil that is yes so rampant in this world today. i wish god would have jus taken away our freewill long time my life and yours and all the people who die in all these tragedies lifes would have been much greater but i am happy that he gave me freewill so i dont feel that i am totallyy force into anything but i still chosse to follow the rightous path with all the evil going on in the world still and i have even more satisfaction jus becus i no that i chose the right way and saved myself.

Dont no if i got that out completely right but bare wit me i am a busy pc technician.

Dwight E. Fox
Bahamas

"Nothing\\\'s Impossible, It Just Hasn\\\'t Been Done Yet"

I'm back guys...
sorry I was soooo BZ ...
anyway..let me answer you...and maby ask u..
NevaEndin...-if u were GOD..and if I were GOD..and I believe anyothere human if were GOD..we would stop 9/11...coz we are good people..and we don't want otheres to die(not talking about terrorist..)..so how come we would stop it and the GOD of christian people didn't stop it?
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first of all...i like GOD of christian people..because it's exactly the same as god of muslem people(lol)
GOD(the most merciful the most beneficent) didn't stop it..and will not stop any other case like this(or what ever) coz he is GOD..Let me explain..
As i said ..don't compare God with your self...and tell me what would happen if god stop any harmful event in the world?..
sorry i have exam tomarow and have to go and study...
i will explain it more later...
and 1 more point before I forget...
Dumb teen....>Do u think all this world (i mean the Univers) hase been created by it self?
what does that mean?..I really can't undrestand...U think all these rules in the world have no creator...so where did they come from?...
and let me give u a simple example...>imagin that u r in the middle of sea...there is no one there..and there is a horrible storm...and u have to swim jus to no where!!!
then in that time...is there any hope for u to get to the sea side safely?...jus tell me would u have any hope or not...(imagin of the worst situation in the sea).

i wil make a point on the being god piece again all i was trying to say is yes 9/11 happened it has already happen and u cud say god allowed it to happen which means if i were god i will do the same thing becus i will be same god not myself for the only god i cud be is god therefore i would be the god that exsist right now i cant be another god myself cus that god doesnot exsist period.
i think our mean problem in this life is there are to much humans trying to be god or performing gods duties i mean these people judge, punish and condemn others jus becus they let this whole freewill go to their head and tried to make themselve god or someone close to him or very similar. its jus mankinds obsession wit control and power everyone who do bad our driven by these two problems they want to have control over their lives or lives of others which is a want for power which all comes back to selfishness our greatest weakness cus dont matter how u look at it everything someone does wrong they do it for themselves no one else.

anyway i will end there
Dwight E. Fox
Bahamas

"Nothing\\\'s Impossible, It Just Hasn\\\'t Been Done Yet"

I think I R Me's "theistic showdown" idea closely fits my theory of how man came to conceive of the concept of a God. Plus I thought it was funny. However I want to back off from the arguement from evil which most have been arguing about in this thread.

Here is a theory about why God does not exist that is logical. Everyone is familiar w/ cause and effect, right? Well, if you track the causal chain of events back to their source eventually you will discover what started it. Religious people suggest that this is God and scientists cosider the possibility that black holes may have this effect. In our case we will call God the "first mover" or the entity that gave cause a kick in the ass to produce its ever expanding infinity of effects. The problem with this theory is that God must then be self cause b/c there is no one/thing to 'cause' God. An uncaused cause or an unmoved 'first mover' is a logical impossibility which is at least some evidence for the proof of the non-existence of God.

"Morals here. Get your morals. Only cost...your freedom."

"Dumb teen....>Do u think all this world (i mean the Univers) hase been created by it self?
what does that mean?..I really can't undrestand...U think all these rules in the world have no creator...so where did they come from?..."
Where did it come from? My personal idea is that the first instant of the universe all the laws were defined absolutely randomly and everything that defines our universe was determined absolutely randomly.
Given how the universe is, this is far more likely then say, a God. A God who came from nowhere? Or I suppose this God created himself?

"and let me give u a simple example...>imagin that u r in the middle of sea...there is no one there..and there is a horrible storm...and u have to swim jus to no where!!!
then in that time...is there any hope for u to get to the sea side safely?...jus tell me would u have any hope or not...(imagin of the worst situation in the sea)."
Well if its that bad, probably not.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

Anyone ever heard of "Pascal's Wager?" If God does exist and you go to church every Sunday, say ur hail Mary's, etc. rather than utilizing that time to practice your golf game you can at least expect from the time you put in going to chuch that you will go to heaven.

On the other hand if God does not exist and you go to church, 'hail' the Nazi Mary, etc. and do not go golfing you have wasted your time.

So the big question is, do you bet on God and go to church or do you utilize your time to practice your golf game?

The answer is that the arguement fails!
God thinks gambling is a sin.

"Morals here. Get your morals. Only cost...your freedom."

I hear a whole lot of talk about all the evil in the world, but where's the talk about all the good that's happened? If evil is evidence for God's existence, what is all the good happening evidence for? If the 'sheer blatant evil roaming around the earth' makes a Christian God improbable, then all the 'sheer blatant good roaming around the earth' makes a Christian God probable. What books have you read DumbTeen?

All the talk about having an all good world (meaning no evil by human standards) is only a human ideal. And we have no right saying that this should be God's ideal. Who are we to tell God how to create the world?

rschulz said:

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The problem with this theory is that God must then be self cause b/c there is no one/thing to 'cause' God. An uncaused cause or an unmoved 'first mover' is a logical impossibility which is at least some evidence for the proof of the non-existence of God.

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My personal idea is that the first instant of the universe all the laws were defined absolutely randomly and everything that defines our universe was determined absolutely randomly.
Given how the universe is, this is far more likely then say, a God.

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"All statements are false. The last statement is false.--One of these statements is true."

I believe that the purpose of this thread is for people who don't believe in God, for them to explain why.

"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
[  Edited by okcitykid at   ]

Well, I don't know why people refer to God as a 'being'. I mean, I just think that God is some force. Perhaps nature itself is God. Many people question why everything is the way it is, like why does time go fowards etc. The most logical one is that there was some artbary decision that lead to these initial configurations of the universe. If you say that they were chosen randomly, then that means that there are a an infinite number of universes, however, the artbary decision theory is probably the most logical.
It can be said, that these configurations like gravity gradually evolved after the big bang, but again, why does the universe contain matter, why is fire red, why was there a big bang and so on. So unless you are saying that there are an infinite number of universes with all the different configurations possible, the initial artibary(or God?) theory is the most likely one.
So yes, I think there is a God, but not one who inteferes in our sex lives or something! I think that God didn't really have that much of a choice in creating the universe, and probably just had to start it and gave it 'characteristics', and everything was then left to chance.

"I'll heal ur woundz I'll set u free, I m jesus christ on xtacy"

" That doesn't make any sence to me. By guessing that the universe had an infinite amount of time to create itself, is like implying that there was an infinite regression of time going backwards. If we had that much time, I would think that we would be far more advanced by now. I would think that we would be as advanced as we could possibly be. With an infinite amount of time and no starting point, I should be dead by now, and we should at least be flying in space ships into other galxies. If we had an infinite regression of time, our sun should have burned out by now. This is definitely not 'far more likely than say, a God.'"
I said none of this. I said that the laws that define the way our universe functioned were defined the first instant and probably randomly. The universe we exist in today obeys to laws and is not terribly random, (barring quantum mechanics) but the reason there are some laws over others is random.
If it isn't random, then there is most certainly a God.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

A O D thats exactly what I mean by thinking outside the box.

Here is something you might relate to
http://www.ldolphin.org/cohere.shtml

My links don't seem to work, so maybe copy and paste.

hmmmm, Yeah checked it out, bit on the relgious sid though.

Anyway, so if anyone doesn't beleive in God then u r saying that there are infinite universes with infinite initial configurations, otherwise if you say that these configurations were artibary, then there is a God.

"I'll heal ur woundz I'll set u free, I m jesus christ on xtacy"

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be30mple - how can you believe in an omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient being when there's so much evil around you?

Decius, please tell 11 million holocaust victims that they are inconsequential.
Its all fine that using abstract reasoning nothing really matters, indeed nothing matters, we're just a few atoms on a small world of a normal sun in an average galaxy. However, regardless of any reasoning, what matters is human life, and the pains and pleasures of mankind.
You cannot just sweep these under the carpet and call them inconsequential.

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"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

Strongclad you said: "This is a misunderstanding about the Christian God. You imply in your theory that God is bound by time and space. If God is the creator of time, wouldn't that give him rule over it? And if he has rule over it, he isn't bound by it. By saying that God has always existed, we basically speak a contradiction in terms. God can't ALWAYS exist if he isn't bound by time. That's why a lot of people choose to call God Eternal, and not Immortal. Which gives logical reason to believe in an uncreated creator."

If God is outside space and time/causality it is a dodge from the question, "does God exist?" Simply saying that God exists outside of time and space does not give any reason to say he exists. What you presuppose is that the idea of God existing outside space and time has merit. (What is, “outside space and time?”) To the human understanding it does not have merit, since we are not able to conceive of a being outside the causal chain of events, (I.E. – a consequence without and act) It simply cannot be done. If you can do this, prove it in your next post and I will be considered wrong.

Moreover, the argument from causality does give us reason to accept or reject the existence of God, whether it is correct or not. If it would be necessary for God to be caused, then it leaves the question, "Does God exist", insufficiently answered. If God is not linked to the causal chain of events, then at least we can rule out the argument from causality for our next discussion.

But at this point simply proposing “God is outside space and time" is a mute point b/c you simply pull us further away from the possibility of the human mind to understand and conceive of the existence of God. If this is the case you are doing nothing more than 'dodging' the question.

"Morals here. Get your morals. Only cost...your freedom."