The Logical VS The Faithful

A question for the bible believers, what do you currently believe to be the explanation of how "god's word" was transferred and made into the bible, posession, direct communication, divine inspiration (if these please please explain just what you mean), what exactly?

Who came up with the creation story that is written in the bible, the story of adam and eve, and how did this information come to them?

I have heard believers note of possible translation errors but thats about it, but still believe such a specific and direct message to be true and perhaps still the "word of god". What I ask is do you believe in the possibility of manipulations, errors, even the validity of the originally claimed source, and do you believe that any of this contributes to a host of misinterpretations and mishandlings espescially by any types of authority figures, from parents to presidents?

I'm particulary curious about the creation and adam and eve story.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

whats unhappy about everything going in cycles (llogical) were on a (tthe wrod for many dif stages sin spors) ebjy it have bad times to (just the same if there was a god) love god but mabe its us saying well if i beliece in god i have better chance i dont want to be scared so we go towards this soucre (like a story humans created fir each iother)

"no quote until i copyright it.."

YSe celaryl tahts treu.

"Durch Nacht und Blut das Licht"

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I'm particulary curious about the creation and adam and eve story.

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"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

Ok, another thought just popped in my head. I often hear the notion that ascension and religious piety come partly by controlling natural urges and instincts, that to be truly civilized and advanced as a culture people must overcome, and use restraint if not even abstinance when dealing with such primitive survival instincts.

And by having done so to the extent we have is one thing, along with basic needs available and provided for the majority (equalling greater stability and safety), this instinct control is one thing that has led to and allowed the extent of cultural advacement and the freedom needed for the exercising higher thinking.

Where I'm going with this is that there is much evidence to support the notion that religion is a basic survival instinct, meant to protect people while alive from vengeful gods and or to protect the ever pressumptuous idea of an eternal "soul" in the afterlife. And that, as has been so obvious, its actually a regressive and hostilely defense force
as most instincts are.

You see, morals have nothing to do with religion, thats another pressumption that is very important to look at. As even my dictionary states morals are a sense of right and wrong, people just assume that the bible needed to say these things for them to be true or have meaning or even that that's where they originated, which is ludicrous, especially in refrence to the bible for how young it is compared to other religions and how young it is compared to the existance of mankind who have always had to deal with right and wrong in some form or fashion. And just think of how much further back the words and their meanings were invented in the first place, let alone the understanding of the concept before written word.

Religious posistion on gay's and abortion, is not a moral, and is definitely not a moral absolute, judgement is not a moral, that is a job only qualified by god according to some faiths. Its an opinion, an established belief even, doesn't mean its true, and definitely doesn't make it a moral.

And a point I made earlier of how such freedom from or control over these instincts is possibly even vital to allow advancement or higher thinking, without (as religious people will often put it) being consumed by such inner weakness that they will behave like animals rather than men.

Think of what an instinct is, innate and even in cases adaptive animal behavior, a strong impulse or motivation, basic survival tools, hard wiring, a natural and internal feeling or belief in what is needed to be done to survive, A DIRECT CONTROL OVER INDIVIDUAL BEHAVIOR. Then think what religion can be described as being, pre existing set laws, the thing people revert to in times of difficulty in life (especially when scared or threatened) and more importantly in decision making often over common sense or rational thought, an attempt to control human behavior etc. And like an instinct religion can be contradictory to moral belief, and can be adaptive to incorporate new things that couldn't even be imagined let alone explained, covered, and espcecially judged by people over 2,000 years ago, reasonably or not.

And think about why it is seemingly so hard for people to question such faith, why it is so natural for so many to just up and believe in it, of course of once they have been told that is simply is true (please don't ever forget that, most believers are told at a very young and impressionable age that the things in the bible and claimed by religious authorities is true, not to mention scared into believing that not believing could mean torture for eternity, that's not likely to sway anything).

People fear god, no two ways about it, even if it is a backburning possibility only, believer or not, people think someone or something may very well be judging them with a possibility of ending up in hell, because when you hear something enough, you are stupid not to think it at least possible.

Please also take into account such factors as stigmas and mob mentality, of what personal gain comes from believing and or just going with the flow. Just as long as you don't question it.

And think very hard about what consequences actually happen in social circles and what as above stated too, what proposed consequences are implied or even detailed and claimed as fact.

I see religion as a tool, and instinct, a thing like any other thing that possesses both good and bad qualities, and like anything else can be bad for you when abused/overused.

Think, what is the one thing, besides hard work (which even gets criticism due to hours and stress taking from family etc.) that doesn't recieve criticism from the "moral" community for being obsessed with, for being addicted too, that's right folks, religion.

If that doesn't say something then I don't know what does.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
[  Edited by Ironwood at   ]

In Native American Traditions is the tale of ' when the came to laugh at the moon.' From this extends the 'Directions of the Four Winds.' In short form the Four Winds are 4 brothers, who come to live on the earth with their father & a younger brother.
Wohpe, Falling Star Woman enters an insueing conflict is formed that as these four brothers seek to find their directions in the physical existence, they are also involved in finding (accepting) the correct relationship to this female newcomer.

So in a sense I see the bible as a book that similarly is about finding the right relationship in your society. Starting with the premise that all of mankind are from the same family (tribe) & therefore should love one another. That love is the same for all, the relationship (form) of that love takes is what is different.

"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

But thats not what the bible teaches. Some of it kind of teaches that, but still makes love conditional and still condemns people to ETERNAL damnation, what could any one person do in such a short and possibly meaningless lifetime that could deserve that? Sure, and the bible wants you to find a way to live in love and respect of others, others that believe as you do.

The bible is a bad joke, all of its important "morals" are little more than common sense, and the rest borders on bigotry and elitism through fear and hate, not to mention sexist crap.

Look, if moses was right in his time, and Jesus was right in his, well then perhaps its time for something new again. But even the initial concept to this paragraph though clearly evident, of a bible contradiction, a god flaw, people still except it without question, giving the faithful the opportunity to, instead of seeing the falacy of their beliefs, it actually tends to encourage and strengthen their beliefs by making them sound right by the bible on any contradicting stance they may take on any issue, because one is vengeful and violent, yet right, and one is peaceful and against violence, yet also right. Its no wonder its such a mess.

And the problem with that is also that even the faithful's human nature of fear, denial, and even violent ways win out for a couple of reasons. One is they think they are right, so they don't worry as much about double checking themselves, Two, if someone questions them, they figure that means since they believe in "and live by" the "word of god", that whoever questions them is questioning the word of god and therefore are easily dismissed or attacked. This mentality is especially present in the stronger of the fundamentalists and fanatics, but its also just a trait of the arrogant, the ones that are so sure they know things. Sorry if I went all over with this but oh well.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

Here's another question, is the 7 deadly sins only a catholic thing? I'm not too sure on that at the moment, so if someone could let me know.

If not, what sins do the christians no of as certainly as the stated list of perhaps catholic sins, just those from the ten commandments? Did Jesus list sins?

But about that, I want to compare the American mentality to those particular 7 sins. Them being, sloth, envy, pride, gluttony, lust, greed and anger, there are apparently some other virtues meant to be the anithisis such as humility, charity, compassion etc.

Now, from what I know and see of American culture and mentality, it would seem to me that those 7 sins are almost what the basis of our country is today, regardless of what it ever was in the past.

Today greed, is encouraged if not demanded, from everything we must have more.

Pride, which shocked me when I heard it ever referred to as a sin in the first place, because no one hides that in America, unless they are facing criminal charges for whatever they have pride in. Pride is basically an american institution at this point. Which offsets humility so strongly and blindly, I say blindly because I'm not sure most of america, especially mainstream or public figures, including public leaders, even know what humility is.


Envy, greed, and gluttony all tie together and are the driving forces behind our businesses who can't all do something worth while, not while still making money, and definitely not while making the kind of money anyone feel they "need" or just want.

Now if you don't think America has a problem with anger, well, you may live here for one, and whatever blanket sheilds much of the reality of our inner cities etc. is probably blinding you too.

Sloth seems to be a bigger problem then ever, for a whole slew of reasons that seem more to be indicating great change. Our ideas of how to parent and lead people have been drastically altered in the days of political correctness and the changes in the ideas of physical and emotional abuses. Leaving a lot of confused and undirected people, along with more who have more of an opportunity to take advantage of such things as welfare, which is important, but throwing money at that kind of problem doesn't fix it. It takes intervention care and parenting, even of adults, people call leadership leadership but some of it is just parenting, which gets messy when parenting other "adults". People often say if they haven't figured out how to take care of themselves then fuck em. That is a mentality that will bite you in the ass unless you are allowed to profile and deport or just dissappear people.

Anyone else find it interesting that lieing isn't one of the 7 deadly sins?

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

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Sloth seems to be a bigger problem then ever

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"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

Perhaps yes, because not doing destructive work doesn't mean you shouldn't do any work, say constructive perhaps.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"

Perhaps but I looked it up the dictionary which define it as lazy?
The NT quotes something about those who did not toil (work) & purposed 'that they that do not toil should not eat?'
Jesus makes a statement that 'look at the birds of the air, they toil not yet God has provided for them. They gather the seed yet they do not sow? (in a sense they do drop seeds distributing the seeds)

So I see more of an attitude of doing ones share in reference to the biblical use. In the hebrew tradition, they lived as a group (tribe) which had shared responsiblities to the whole.
In our society, the accent is on the individual. You (work) for yourself, not the common good in which you share?
In this, sloth is not fulfilling some obligation in our society? 'Work hard to make (money) a living', not 'do your share to provide for the needs of yourself & the community'.

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work, say constructive

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"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."

Of course the surronding verses go into more detail, but here's some instances of what cturtle mentioned...

Romans 12:5, 6a
# So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
# Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us

1 Corinthians 12:12
For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

"as i see it the only "variable" in the equation is THOUGHT. you are capable of changing this and this alone."

oh leftwood, i've got some passages over a few of your questions...
i'm not claiming absolute knowledge (i know how we hate that), but maybe these will give you a beter idea of "their point of view".

on controlling natural urges as a pre-requisite for assention- Romans 1. Romans 7. basically romans and 1 corinthians have a ton of things to say about this.

Colossians 2:23- These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

# Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience' sake;
# For "the earth is the LORD'S, and all its fullness."
# If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience' sake.
# But if anyone says to you, "This was offered to idols," do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience' sake; for "the earth is the LORD'S, and all its fullness."
# "Conscience," I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man's conscience?
# But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks?
# Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

what is kosher? (rhetorical...) another case in point concerning mis-interpretation.

i know i've posted alot of scripture... i think the point my subconscious is trying to make is-that book has an angle on most everything. i'm all for constructive criticism, let me know what you get out of that/

"as i see it the only "variable" in the equation is THOUGHT. you are capable of changing this and this alone."

Galatians 5:13-26
# For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
# For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
# But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
# I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
# For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
# But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
# Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
# Idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
# Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
# But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
# Gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
# And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
# If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
# Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

James1:13-17
# Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
# But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
# Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
# Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
# Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

some more food for thought, but take it all with a grain of salt. imply what you will, epistemically of course

quote:

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Look, if moses was right in his time, and Jesus was right in his, well then perhaps its time for something new again.

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"as i see it the only "variable" in the equation is THOUGHT. you are capable of changing this and this alone."
[  Edited by iSOUGHT|THOUGHT at   ]

"'look at the birds of the air, they toil not yet God has provided for them. They gather the seed yet they do not sow?"

They still have to work by gathering food, or yes, they starve.

Your questions about what good really comes from the imbalance of humans and nature is a point I've brought up in the past, we have become a plague upon this planet. If you are anything other than human, you are in danger, and if you are human, well, you are also in danger.

The passages listed included such things as "sins" or lust of the flesh. While true these things can control us and make us want or even do them even if we don't want to, but that is because we have to in order to survive as a species.

You see, other than health risks and gluttony I never hear of Jesus or anyone mention how we feel compelled uncontrollably to eat, and take a shit, and although some food tastes good (ususally the ones that are bad for me) and a good healthy shit can feel good, I would rather not do either, but I must to survive.

People don't like to look at the addictive or animally instinctive natures of humans because they've been taught it is bad, and since emotions get involved they can be hurtful. It reminds people that we don't have the type of control over ourselves that we would like to believe and that we are just animals. That we are under the control and forced by our physical needs to do things we don't want to want to do.

The bible can have a spin on anything partially because much of it can be vague, to say something is bad or bad because it is a natural instinct doesn't explain anything, to say that one will not inherit the kingdom of god shows of great arrogance as to what such a thing is let alone to the truth of its possible existance. And because it touches on many core behavioral issues which have not changed, tied with a cult following and a mentality desiring and in far too many cases demanding that the bible mean something.

If you had a chance to see what Jesus saw to decide and feel the need to express concerns over human nature. You would most likely find little more than that which you see today. How people lie cheat and steal, how much death comes from war of often power struggles or bitter pointless arguments, of people pushing people to be and do "better" more, of people helping others less and themselves more, if he were to see the destruction we bring to this earth today, as in the environment and such advancements in killing who knows what he would do or think, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be impressed by cultural "advancement".

What does the bible and all religions say about lieing, and self deception, including false idols. Specifically lies though, I hear far too little against such subjects and hear far too much acceptance of such practices in everday life.

People are stumped by lies because at the moment they cannot be accurately proven and are now so abused that people are hopelessly dependant upon them.

You see, when the day comes in the next however many years, we will read minds, its already happening as scientists learn how to recieve and interpret brain waves as well as learning more about the brain all the time. Once this happens and we are seeing hearing and feeling eachothers thoughts things will be different, sort of, at least in the lies aspect hopefully.

Many suicides of the guilty will come this day. There will be a seeing and hopefully a cleaning or accepting of things that haunted us for so long.

"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"